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Vaccine Megathread - See OP for threadbans

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Comments

  • #692
    sd1999
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68 ✭✭sd1999


    The HorsesMouth wrote: »
    Ok we all know how vaccines work. But usually vaccines throughout history have mostly been against diseases that have serious potential to harm you as an individual. Not for the good of everyone else. For example the flu vaccine, most people under 40 don't get it and are not expected to get it because they are v unlikely to die of flu ( i am not comparing flu to covid btw!).

    So in my case, I have had covid. I had a few days where I had no energy and a headache but that was pretty much it. So just hypothetically speaking..if I was to receive the AZ vaccine, and then die of a blood clot..are you saying sorry that's just one of those things..we are happy to accept you dying from getting a vaccine from a disease that posed no risk to you personally?

    FWIW I will take a vaccine and I am not anti-vax at all but I find people suggest that young people are misguided and selfish for harbouring hesitations to taking a vaccine against something that poses little risk to most of them a bit over the top.

    That’s why AZ is being used in over 60s now.

    And yes getting vaccinated is an altruistic thing to do and not getting one because it won’t personally affect you if you get sick is selfish.

    Everyone gets older, if Covid is still a problem in 40 years time because not enough people get vaccinated then it could be what kills you.


  • #693
    The HorsesMouth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 512 ✭✭✭The HorsesMouth


    sd1999 wrote: »
    That’s why AZ is being used in over 60s now.

    And yes getting vaccinated is an altruistic thing to do and not getting one because it won’t personally affect you if you get sick is selfish.

    But when have we ever vaccinated someone who wasn't really at risk of getting sick just so someone else vulnerable wouldn't get sick?
    Sometimes it's not as simple as just saying get on with it and just get vaccinated!


  • #694
    WoollyRedHat
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,462 ✭✭✭✭WoollyRedHat


    Jim Gazebo wrote: »
    For the unknowledgeable average person this whole charade is a massive PR disaster. One has to wonder if it is purposeful but that's for another discussion.

    Personally, I've said it before, I'm young, I've always believed in fighting off illness without medication etc etc being better in the long run. I would still rather wait on the vaccine MYSELF, if I was 50+, even 40+ I'd swallow it down in any way possible. But I do not see the point in grabbing the first available vaccine for an illness I'm still happy to take my chances with if I catch it.

    I do not think people should be castigated for that stance if they are young and healthy.


    To preface, I'm young too and I'd rather take my chances taking a vaccine and the risk of experiencing an adverse affect to it, that is incredibly small in probability, compared to not taking one and being at a bigger risk to having a worse adverse reaction due to being infected by a wild-type virus that could have **** knock-on effects.

    The overall opinion is you are better to get protected than get infected.


  • #695
    astrofool
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,439 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    The HorsesMouth wrote: »
    But when have we ever vaccinated someone who wasn't really at risk of getting sick just so someone else vulnerable wouldn't get sick?
    Sometimes it's not as simple as just saying get on with it and just get vaccinated!

    Literally all the time, colleges offer free flu vaccine to students for this precise reason.


  • #696
    The HorsesMouth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 512 ✭✭✭The HorsesMouth


    astrofool wrote: »
    Literally all the time, colleges offer free flu vaccine to students for this precise reason.

    But they are not called selfish and misguided for not taking it.


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  • #697
    sd1999
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68 ✭✭sd1999


    The HorsesMouth wrote: »
    But when have we ever vaccinated someone who wasn't really at risk of getting sick just so someone else vulnerable wouldn't get sick?
    Sometimes it's not as simple as just saying get on with it and just get vaccinated!

    When was the last time we had a pandemic that shutdown most of society for a year and half? And it has been done before. Young people weren't at risk from swine flu but were still vaccinated, or at least offered it. Kids in early secondary school get the HPV vaccine now. Very few people get measles anymore so the risk isn't really there but the majority of people aren't vaccinated against it. And again, it's not about whether or not you'll be fine, it's about protecting those who won't be and ignoring that is definitely selfish. In Ireland at least, under 60s will be offered with Pfizer vaccine which hasn't led to significant side effects like AZ and J&J have.


  • #698
    sd1999
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68 ✭✭sd1999


    The HorsesMouth wrote: »
    But they are not called selfish and misguided for not taking it.

    Because the flu isn't as deadly as Covid for most people and the flu vaccines are significantly less effective than all of the Covid ones (some can be around 30-40% effective) meaning that herd immunity isn't really possible with them.


  • #699
    The HorsesMouth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 512 ✭✭✭The HorsesMouth


    sd1999 wrote: »
    When was the last time we had a pandemic that shutdown most of society for a year and half? And it has been done before. Young people weren't at risk from swine flu but were still vaccinated, or at least offered it. Kids in early secondary school get the HPV vaccine now. Very few people get measles anymore so the risk isn't really there but the majority of people aren't vaccinated against it. And again, it's not about whether or not you'll be fine, it's about protecting those who won't be and ignoring that is definitely selfish. In Ireland at least, under 60s will be offered with Pfizer vaccine which hasn't led to significant side effects like AZ and J&J have.

    Everything you have mentioned there has the potential to harm the individual though. Measles, cervical cancer etc. And again they might have been offered the vaccine against swine flu but weren't denounced for not taking it.
    Anyways, my point is I think most young people will take a vaccine in the end but calling them selfish if they hesitate is not exactly going to bring them on board.


  • #700
    sd1999
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68 ✭✭sd1999


    The HorsesMouth wrote: »
    Everything you have mentioned there has the potential to harm the individual though. Measles, cervical cancer etc. And again they might have been offered the vaccine against swine flu but weren't denounced for not taking it.
    Anyways, my point is I think most young people will take a vaccine in the end but calling them selfish if they hesitate is not exactly going to bring them on board.

    Covid has the potential to harm the individual. 3,000,000 people have died of it in less than 2 years. A decent proportion of those who recover suffer long term symptoms.


  • #701
    Scuid Mhór
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,326 ✭✭✭Scuid Mhór


    The HorsesMouth wrote: »
    Ok we all know how vaccines work.

    No disrespect intended but it honestly doesn't sound like you do know how vaccines work. It's not just about preventing illness in the individual.
    But usually vaccines throughout history have mostly been against diseases that have serious potential to harm you as an individual. Not for the good of everyone else.

    No, you're wrong on this. Tuberculosis, measles, polio, smallpox. Many more can just be googled. Eradicated or broken down to very rare community transmission due to population-wide vaccine usage.
    For example the flu vaccine, most people under 40 don't get it and are not expected to get it because they are v unlikely to die of flu ( i am not comparing flu to covid btw!).

    This is a once-in-a-century pandemic that has damaged lives and livelihoods and has literally stopped society as we know it. The severity of the flu is not as bad as covid. The flu doesn't shut down societies.
    So in my case, I have had covid. I had a few days where I had no energy and a headache but that was pretty much it. So just hypothetically speaking..if I was to receive the AZ vaccine, and then die of a blood clot..are you saying sorry that's just one of those things..we are happy to accept you dying from getting a vaccine from a disease that posed no risk to you personally?

    As posters before me have said, the AZ vaccine has been prohibited from being used in individuals below the age of sixty. But frankly I think that was extreme regulatory overstretch. The fact of the matter is this in order for society to reopen and for people to be able to go about their daily lives without fear of the most vulnerable succumbing to a deadly illness, if you run the numbers, statistically it makes far more sense to administer AZ and risk a statistically insignificant amount of blood clots than it would to not administer the vaccine, let covid continue to spread unabated and end up with more people dying.

    We're not living in a perfect world right now. We're racing against the clock and we have to be utilitarian about it.

    But the risk of developing a blood clot from AZ is so low that it's really not something to worry about. You are more likely to die in a car accident than develop blood clots from the vaccine. But you're not going to stop getting into cars anytime soon.
    FWIW I will take a vaccine and I am not anti-vax at all but I find people suggest that young people are misguided and selfish for harbouring hesitations to taking a vaccine against something that poses little risk to most of them a bit over the top.

    Not accusing you of being anti-vaxx but it's not over the top at all. It is misguided and selfish because it completely misses the point of the vaccination programme. These same young people are probably the ones most likely lamenting the lockdowns they have had to suffer through. It's oxymoronic. A vaccine isn't to protect the individual, it's to protect society.

    And thinking that covid poses little risk to young people is also a huge misnomer btw. There is still so little we know about the disease, it's long term effects etc. Long covid is getting more and more publicity recently.


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  • #702
    astrofool
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,439 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    sd1999 wrote: »
    Covid has the potential to harm the individual.

    It's also impossible to know if you'll have the severe form of COVID-19 until after you're infected at which point it's too late.


  • #703
    sd1999
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68 ✭✭sd1999


    astrofool wrote: »
    It's also impossible to know if you'll have the severe form of COVID-19 until after you're infected at which point it's too late.

    Exactly, just had quick google there and as of February just under a third of those infected suffer symptoms for longer than two weeks. There has also been an increase in psychiatric illness associated with past Covid infection.

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(21)00084-5/fulltext

    Even if you recover, you can still have sustained neurological damage. We won't know the imapct of that for a long time yet so it's better to, you know, prevent people from getting Covid even if they're not classed as high risk.


  • #704
    astrofool
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,439 ✭✭✭✭astrofool


    sd1999 wrote: »
    Exactly, just had quick google there and as of February just under a third of those infected suffer symptoms for longer than two weeks. There has also been an increase in psychiatric illness associated with past Covid infection.

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpsy/article/PIIS2215-0366(21)00084-5/fulltext

    Even if you recover, you can still have sustained neurological damage. We won't know the imapct of that for a long time yet so it's better to, you know, prevent people from getting Covid even if they're not classed as high risk.

    I'm just remembering the COVID parties they had in the States with multiple people making themselves eligible for Darwin awards.


  • #705
    lucernarian
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,236 ✭✭✭lucernarian


    astrofool wrote: »
    Literally all the time, colleges offer free flu vaccine to students for this precise reason.
    I don't always agree but on this point you're 2000% right. Another obvious example is the polio vaccine, most (like 99% of) children who were infected did not get any symptoms of paralysis. Owing to how transmissible it was, the whole world is vaccinated to protect a comparatively small proportion of the population from serious disease.

    Additionally, many diseases are vaccinated against because of the risk of serious disease and hospitalisation (even if mortality is low). One example is the chickenpox / shingles vaccine.


  • #706
    Azatadine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,592 ✭✭✭Azatadine


    On the positive front, Moderna"s vaccine is a really good vaccine.

    https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/548041-moderna-study-finds-covid-19-vaccine-90-percent-effective-six-months-after?amp#click=https://t.co/fw9PXOxL15


  • #707
    hynesie08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,265 ✭✭✭✭hynesie08


    Azatadine wrote: »
    On the positive front, Moderna"s vaccine is a really good vaccine.

    https://thehill.com/policy/healthcare/548041-moderna-study-finds-covid-19-vaccine-90-percent-effective-six-months-after?amp#click=https://t.co/fw9PXOxL15

    Great, any chance they could manufacture a few billion doses then.


  • #708
    stephenjmcd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,450 ✭✭✭✭stephenjmcd


    From listening to morning Ireland and having a skim through the morning papers you'd think the sky had come crashing down.

    They're going overboard on J&J, complete lack of facts, one stating 40k doses were due this week, firstly they weren't it was this month and the J&J numbers are very small in the next few weeks.

    Secondly they seem to completely skim over the fact that the FDA said they expect the pause in the states to last "only a number of days"

    Very frustrating knowing most of the population get their news from these sources & they go completely over the top and people wouldn't know about the things posted here for example in the last 24hrs with regards to the FDA etc.

    Sorry all for the rant but it's very annoying seeing all of this being misinterpreted & going completely overboard


  • #709
    vienne86
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,078 ✭✭✭✭vienne86


    stephenjmcd wrote: »
    From listening to morning Ireland and having a skim through the morning papers you'd think the sky had come crashing down.

    They're going overboard on J&J, complete lack of facts, one stating 40k doses were due this week, firstly they weren't it was this month and the J&J numbers are very small in the next few weeks.

    Secondly they seem to completely skim over the fact that the FDA said they expect the pause in the states to last "only a number of days"

    Very frustrating knowing most of the population get their news from these sources & they go completely over the top and people wouldn't know about the things posted here for example in the last 24hrs with regards to the FDA etc.

    Sorry all for the rant but it's very annoying seeing all of this being misinterpreted & going completely overboard
    Just thinking exactly the same........turning off.


  • #710
    dominatinMC
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,131 ✭✭✭dominatinMC


    stephenjmcd wrote: »
    From listening to morning Ireland and having a skim through the morning papers you'd think the sky had come crashing down.

    They're going overboard on J&J, complete lack of facts, one stating 40k doses were due this week, firstly they weren't it was this month and the J&J numbers are very small in the next few weeks.

    Secondly they seem to completely skim over the fact that the FDA said they expect the pause in the states to last "only a number of days"

    Very frustrating knowing most of the population get their news from these sources & they go completely over the top and people wouldn't know about the things posted here for example in the last 24hrs with regards to the FDA etc.

    Sorry all for the rant but it's very annoying seeing all of this being misinterpreted & going completely overboard
    Rant away, as I've done so many times. The media have been nothing short of disgraceful during this pandemic, their job is to inform not frighten, and we have seen a very definite shift towards the latter in recent times. I think a lot may be attributable to the rise in social media and the need to report first, ask questions and analyse later. Something of a modern day malaise.
    At the moment, Covid is a gravy train for RTE and the rest, especially with Trump gone! The likes of Claire Byrne, and worse again Katie Hannon, live, breath and sleep Covid. It's ****ing pathetic really. If anyone comes knocking on my door looking for a licence fee, I'll take great pleasure in telling them where to go!


  • #711
    salmocab
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,660 ✭✭✭✭salmocab


    stephenjmcd wrote: »
    From listening to morning Ireland and having a skim through the morning papers you'd think the sky had come crashing down.

    They're going overboard on J&J, complete lack of facts, one stating 40k doses were due this week, firstly they weren't it was this month and the J&J numbers are very small in the next few weeks.

    Secondly they seem to completely skim over the fact that the FDA said they expect the pause in the states to last "only a number of days"

    Very frustrating knowing most of the population get their news from these sources & they go completely over the top and people wouldn't know about the things posted here for example in the last 24hrs with regards to the FDA etc.

    Sorry all for the rant but it's very annoying seeing all of this being misinterpreted & going completely overboard

    Unfortunately it’s the world we made for ourselves, the internet in general and social media in particular means that everything is done in the public eye which on the surface is a good thing unfortunately it means that people with an agenda or just plain wrong will have their voices heard and amplified by people of similar mindsets. People far too often start at a conclusion and work backwards for evidence and the internet is full of evidence of any stand point you want to take.
    We don’t want to pay for good journalism so instead get bad journalism for free, they get paid by getting clicks not writing good articles.


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  • #712
    bucketybuck
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,956 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    The HorsesMouth wrote: »
    Anyways, my point is I think most young people will take a vaccine in the end but calling them selfish if they hesitate is not exactly going to bring them on board.

    It highlights a problem with our governments approach since the very start, they completely ignored the human element in all this.

    The young people of this country have been treated disgracefully in this past year, they had everything taken away from them while never being treated as anything more than collateral damage. Their jobs, their education and their chances all taken away and then told to stop whining and "hold firm".

    Now they are being told to take a vaccine that possibly could kill them to protect against a virus that doesn't hurt them, all to protect people that did nothing for them. And we wonder why they may have stopped giving a damn?

    I'm not young and I'll have my vaccine in the next few weeks, but I can completely see how extremely poor messaging and communication this past year has led to a situation where a lot of people may no longer care how selfish they are or are not.


  • #713
    stephenjmcd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,450 ✭✭✭✭stephenjmcd


    Huge news, portal opening tomorrow.

    I have to say I agree with the step by step for sign up, should ensure the system isn't overloaded each day.

    So tomorrow Thursday aged 69, Friday 68 and so on.

    Vaccinations from next week so we should see AZ being rolled out in big numbers again next week

    https://twitter.com/DonnellyStephen/status/1382239419135066115?s=19


  • #714
    eoinbn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 877 ✭✭✭eoinbn


    stephenjmcd wrote: »

    Secondly they seem to completely skim over the fact that the FDA said they expect the pause in the states to last "only a number of days"

    Very frustrating knowing most of the population get their news from these sources & they go completely over the top and people wouldn't know about the things posted here for example in the last 24hrs with regards to the FDA etc.

    Sorry all for the rant but it's very annoying seeing all of this being misinterpreted & going completely overboard

    The pause isn't the problem, the fact that there is a problem is the problem! IF we end up applying the same restrictions to J&J that we do to AZ then ~1m doses of J&J that we are going to receive in May, June and July will go to waste. That means we need 2m doses of Pfizer and Moderna to cover that. Add the 500k AZ doses that will also go to waste over that time-frame and that is 2 months of supply. That is why we should be worried. It's potentially the biggest setback since AZ's bombshell in January.

    So it becomes a question of what threshold of blood clots will our decision makers accept and what is the true rate of blood clots with J&J. We don't know the answer to either at this stage.


  • #715
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    eoinbn wrote: »
    The pause isn't the problem, the fact that there is a problem is the problem! IF we end up applying the same restrictions to J&J that we do to AZ then ~1m doses of J&J that we are going to receive in May, June and July will go to waste. That means we need 2m doses of Pfizer and Moderna to cover that. Add the 500k AZ doses that will also go to waste over that time-frame and that is 2 months of supply. That is why we should be worried. It's potentially the biggest setback since AZ's bombshell in January.

    So it becomes a question of what threshold of blood clots will our decision makers accept and what is the true rate of blood clots with J&J. We don't know the answer to either at this stage.
    We know that the frequency of this rare event is between 4 and 10 per million, that's the threshold. I also think it's unwise to be making predictions on vaccines, even 4 weeks into the future. There is investigative work going on, work you'd imagine will deliver more information quite quickly. It's in nobody's interest have a scenario like this unfold.


  • #716
    Professor Moriarty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,394 ✭✭✭✭Professor Moriarty


    eoinbn wrote: »
    The pause isn't the problem, the fact that there is a problem is the problem! IF we end up applying the same restrictions to J&J that we do to AZ then ~1m doses of J&J that we are going to receive in May, June and July will go to waste. That means we need 2m doses of Pfizer and Moderna to cover that. Add the 500k AZ doses that will also go to waste over that time-frame and that is 2 months of supply. That is why we should be worried. It's potentially the biggest setback since AZ's bombshell in January.

    So it becomes a question of what threshold of blood clots will our decision makers accept and what is the true rate of blood clots with J&J. We don't know the answer to either at this stage.

    Maybe they can develop a method of predicting who will be at risk of blood clots.


  • #717
    eoinbn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 877 ✭✭✭eoinbn


    is_that_so wrote: »
    We know that the frequency of this rare event is between 4 and 10 per million, that's the threshold. I also think it's unwise to be making predictions on vaccines, even 4 weeks into the future. There is investigative work going on, work you'd imagine will deliver more information quite quickly. It's in nobody's interest have a scenario like this unfold.

    That is for AZ. We don't know what it is for J&J. ~1 in 1 million is the only figure we have at the moment but a few weeks ago the UK were claiming 1 in 5 million which turned out to be far from the truth.


  • #718
    is_that_so
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭is_that_so


    eoinbn wrote: »
    That is for AZ. We don't know what it is for J&J. ~1 in 1 million is the only figure we have at the moment but a few weeks ago the UK were claiming 1 in 5 million which turned out to be far from the truth.
    It's still going to very rare. Either way they need to get to the bottom of it and the current approach is about the best that can be done.


  • #719
    ACitizenErased
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,757 ✭✭✭✭ACitizenErased


    eoinbn wrote: »
    That is for AZ. We don't know what it is for J&J. ~1 in 1 million is the only figure we have at the moment but a few weeks ago the UK were claiming 1 in 5 million which turned out to be far from the truth.
    Johnson and Johnson appears to be about 0.8 per 1,000,000. That is absolutely tiny. Ridiculously small.


  • #720
    josip
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,787 ✭✭✭✭josip


    eoinbn wrote: »
    The pause isn't the problem, the fact that there is a problem is the problem! IF we end up applying the same restrictions to J&J that we do to AZ then ~1m doses of J&J that we are going to receive in May, June and July will go to waste. That means we need 2m doses of Pfizer and Moderna to cover that. Add the 500k AZ doses that will also go to waste over that time-frame and that is 2 months of supply. That is why we should be worried. It's potentially the biggest setback since AZ's bombshell in January.

    So it becomes a question of what threshold of blood clots will our decision makers accept and what is the true rate of blood clots with J&J. We don't know the answer to either at this stage.

    We expect 600,000 doses of J&J in Q2, not 1m.

    https://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1379770246194737157?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1379770370434158595%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es2_&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.boards.ie%2Fvbulletin%2Fshowthread.php%3Fp%3D116815271


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  • #721
    Boggerman12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 130 ✭✭Boggerman12


    dominatinMC wrote: »
    Rant away, as I've done so many times. The media have been nothing short of disgraceful during this pandemic, their job is to inform not frighten, and we have seen a very definite shift towards the latter in recent times. I think a lot may be attributable to the rise in social media and the need to report first, ask questions and analyse later. Something of a modern day malaise.
    At the moment, Covid is a gravy train for RTE and the rest, especially with Trump gone! The likes of Claire Byrne, and worse again Katie Hannon, live, breath and sleep Covid. It's ****ing pathetic really. If anyone comes knocking on my door looking for a licence fee, I'll take great pleasure in telling them where to go!

    Add the absolutely annoying aine lawlor to that list followed in close 2nd place by Audrey carville.


This discussion has been closed.
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