Whatever happened to the DART 8200 EMU units?

tabbey · 11-04-2021 09:05PM

GM228 wrote: »

6111 retains it's original seats, or at least a version of them. It was withdrawn without the plastic seats so not sure if there was some sort of restoration before withdrawal or it never got the plastic seats at all?

https://m.facebook.com/groups/171953576291342/permalink/441922199294477/

6111 along with 6107 were the last of the former push-pulls. Their last duty was the Greystones shuttle from 1984 to 1987. Following the inauguration of DART, Greystones passengers felt like third class citizens, the contrast between the shuttle and the new electric trains being so great. The storm of protest and political representation may have persuaded CIE to restore some sort of proper seating, given the limited number of vehicles and the fact that they would not be running anywhere near Broombridge or Howth Junction.
I can only imagine this is how 6111 could have been withdrawn with regular seats. They certainly would not have been the original mainline seats, or the original ones fitted in the twelve cars (2648-2659) which had been always suburban.
In 1987, Irish Rail hired three sets of 80 class diesel electric railcars from N I R, for three years. One operated Cork - Cobh, one on the maynooth service and one on the Greystones shuttle. When these trains returned to NI 1990, Greystones was left without a suburban service, apart from the Arklow commuter train, until electrification.

dowlingm · 12-04-2021 04:35AM

SeanW wrote: »

If we need locomotive hauled coaches, the UK is throwing out hundreds of HST Mk3s and Intercity 225 Mk4 carriages. It would be much cheaper and better for passengers to buy these and re-gauge them than to try to rebuild those Alstom yokes as coaches.

we might want to wait and see how the RAIU investigation in 224 goes before figuring out what a loco haul fleet for the next while looks like. The 201s are still in traffic so presumably in no immediate danger, but with what lifespan?

In any event, are there enough Hitachis in service now that Mk3s and Mk4s are truly spare with *economic* lifespan left after the cost of refit? We have heard before of spare rolling stock supposedly with no home and open for export but ending up back in UK traffic when Porterbrook or whoever finds another operator to squeeze some £ out of those coaches.

Losty Dublin · 12-04-2021 01:16PM

TheBoyConor wrote: »

25 years old is still relatively new in railway stock terms. At least it used to be. Those MTU engines are solid and there will be parts availability for them for many years to come.

At the time of tendering, the envisaged operational lifespan of the 26, 27 and 2800 units was 15 years.

Losty Dublin · 12-04-2021 01:21PM

hurricanemk1c wrote: »

Using A, C or 141/181 Classes on push pull work is laughable. Railtours maybe, everyday service work no way. Why would you bring back a 60 year old loco full of non standard and lonh out of production parts?.

Think of the photographs, man, and all of the FB likes that they'll generate

12-04-2021 01:39PM

Losty Dublin wrote: »

Think of the photographs, man, and all of the FB likes that they'll generate

And not forgetting smoke

https://youtu.be/R_dWIHm8xFw

TheBoyConor · 12-04-2021 09:31PM

And that's with a GM engine. Imagine what the Crossley would have been like.

tabbey · 12-04-2021 10:10PM

TheBoyConor wrote: »

And that's with a GM engine. Imagine what the Crossley would have been like.

Shortly before re-engining, a crossley powered A class approached Bray. Children on the footbridge became excited, "it's the steam train"!

13-04-2021 10:49AM

TheBoyConor wrote: »

And that's with a GM engine. Imagine what the Crossley would have been like.

In fairness to it, it was the first start since 1983. When 226's engine was started after 32 years of silence it was fairly grotty too. A dead crow was ejected.

But back on topic I suppose the 8200 Darts will be sanctioned for scrapping. If IE have orders in for more railcars then there is no case for trying to fix old crap. In the 1990's dead C class were exchanged for secondhand MKII coaches, such was the lack of investment. More people are working from home now so I suspect there will be an excess of vehicles when new stuff arrives.

Is there a list of what is on order?

L1011 · 13-04-2021 11:16AM

Currently, only the 41 additional 22k centre cars are actually ordered.

TheBoyConor · 13-04-2021 01:01PM

Is there any chance of one example of a 8200 and 2700 being preserved? There is probably more of a case for preserving a 2700 since it is DMU and could potentially run in preservation. One option is to preserve one 2 car set of each example, and then swap them over so that there is one 2700 unit and one 8200 unit coupled together with 2700 providing the motive power. The sets should work together with minimal modifications since the 82s are just an electric version of the 27s.

Whats more, I think another probably better option is that the 2700s to be preserved should be 2751 and 2753 which are double cabbed units. They would be invaluable to a Westrail type operation since the passenger volumes would be small and one coach would do and being double cabbed, it keeps stock to a minimum but still has the same utility as a 2 unit set.

goingnowhere · 13-04-2021 01:09PM

The 8200 bogies are the same as the 8100 fleet so expect them to be retained in any scrap job, same with pantographs. That said I would watch them carefully as they might find a second (though short) life in a future project. They will never operate a public service again.

The engines from the 2700 would also be pulled as spares as they are very similar to the 26/2800 units. Expect 2900 units in Cork as soon as the new DART units arrive on the Maynooth line so there is no need for the 2700's sadly despite being the best for regional use of all the fleet

TheBoyConor · 13-04-2021 03:40PM

If IE pull the engines out of the 2700s, how much could one expect to buy a unit for from IE. Say if someone wanted to get a 2751 or 2753 for a project such as building a railway layout inside of it. I would love to do something like that with, say, a shelled out IE201 or something since they have the wide body. But they are massive compared to a DMU unit.

With public procurement rules though I am guessing that you would probably have to buy it off of the scrapping company who buy them as a job lot to scrap on site, rather than from IE directly. Vic Berry, Hammond Lane or the like.

I'd love to see the 2700s sent back down to the South Wexford line if a private operator would ever take it over. THere was talk of that a few years back but nothing came of it.

L1011 · 13-04-2021 05:50PM

Because every private operator would be delighted with life expired units with parts supply issues and severe reliability problems, or to pay the cost of new units refurbing them to a useful standard

It's not happening. None of your surreal rolling stock fantasies are happening. Make a GRF for Transport Tycoon if you want to 'see' this happening.

Vic_08 · 13-04-2021 09:21PM

A derelict DMU in the front garden is for life, not just Christmas.

tabbey · 13-04-2021 10:01PM

You would need a very big garden and the cost of conveying the vehicle from inchicore or any other rail facility to your garden would not be cheap.

13-04-2021 10:11PM

TheBoyConor wrote: »

Is there any chance of one example of a 8200 and 2700 being preserved?

I have thought about this and of the current IE fleet of everything I could only ever see an 071 and a 201 preserved. ITG don't preserve coaches. I doubt D&CDR would want a 2700 and doubt RPSI would either.

You would need to form a railcar group and find a location off the network.

When I am old or dead there will be a gap in preservation of 1990's onwards stock. Will anyone will care?

In 2009 one evening around 21:00 I was in Carrick making up a loom for 226 to connect cab 1 to the LT cubicle. All alone except for the odd rat.
A railway worker dropped by I had told him I'd be there if he wanted to see how the reassembly had progressed since his last vist a few years back.
He was suprised I was on my own. He had expected me to be accompanied by numerous English blokes. I explained that at that time there were usually just 2 of us on a Saturday and I tended to do a bit of solo work one night a week when I could find the time. Visits by gangs of English blokes were rare events.

So you see, from my numerous dark winter night with just the rats for company, I find it hard to imagine who these railcar preservationists will be. One later evening I did get to see the Cab 1 desk come to life after decades of darkness and silence which was nice.
You should have seen it.......

end of the road · 13-04-2021 10:41PM

226 is a credit to all those working on it down there.
it's been a long road i'm sure and i imagine more to go but you will get there.

end of the road · 13-04-2021 10:50PM

if in the event a rail car is preserved and to be honest it's a big if, it would likely be 1 or both of the 2750s as while they would be less reliable then a 26 or 28 they would probably be easier to manage being single units and they are unique machines.
1 can be in service while the other is out as an example.
might get an 8100 car as a static exibit as it was the first electric multiple unit series in the country but that's yer lot and that is at an absolute stretch.
i'm unsure about a 201 class being preserved, much heavier and complicated machines then a 071 or a 111.

TheBoyConor · 13-04-2021 11:49PM

tabbey wrote: »

You would need a very big garden and the cost of conveying the vehicle from inchicore or any other rail facility to your garden would not be cheap.

I have plenty room to accommodate it in the farm yard if I make room.
Heavy haulage does not come cheap. I've some experience of it through my work. And the haulage is only one part of it..... You've to have crane hire in inchicore to get it on the low loader, another crane at the destination, and I would probably have to demolish the yard entrance gates or widen out a nearby field gate to get it in and lay a short bit of a haul road for the truck to get up to the yard. And the spot needs to be carefully decided upon - it'll be there to stay.
I would not expect the logistics of getting it into the yard to be any less than €10k. Abnormal load permits and Gardai escort will come to at least €1000 if not more.

But if IE would play ball, it's an investment I'd be willing to make.

IE 222 · 13-04-2021 11:49PM

Wouldn't be surprised to see some of them been cut up once the ICRs are on the way. There was a lot of focus on over crowding and it would've been a right storm in a teacup if they were seen cutting up units.

tabbey · 14-04-2021 10:31PM

end of the road wrote: »

if in the event a rail car is preserved and to be honest it's a big if, it would likely be 1 or both of the 2750s as while they would be less reliable then a 26 or 28 they would probably be easier to manage being single units and they are unique machines.
1 can be in service while the other is out as an example.
might get an 8100 car as a static exibit as it was the first electric multiple unit series in the country but that's yer lot and that is at an absolute stretch.
i'm unsure about a 201 class being preserved, much heavier and complicated machines then a 071 or a 111.

This is why we need government intervention. The state, through the national museum and the opw preserve other aspects of our heritage. Sadly it has utterly neglected our railway heritage.
Locomotives and rolling stock, both passenger and freight, or at least some representative examples, should be preserved under cover and secure from vandalism.
It would be nice to have some locos and railcars in running order, but even as static exhibits, the future generations could see what they were like.
Inchicore must have lots of space for a permanent museum building. The erecting shop might even be available sooner or later. This in itself is worth preserving, having been the place of birth for so much of our railway heritage.

L1011 · 14-04-2021 10:38PM

The CIE datacentre out the back of the tower building was vacated a while ago also, so there is definitely some hollowing out happening.

GT89 · 14-04-2021 10:44PM

tabbey wrote: »

This is why we need government intervention. The state, through the national museum and the opw preserve other aspects of our heritage. Sadly it has utterly neglected our railway heritage.
Locomotives and rolling stock, both passenger and freight, or at least some representative examples, should be preserved under cover and secure from vandalism.
It would be nice to have some locos and railcars in running order, but even as static exhibits, the future generations could see what they were like.
Inchicore must have lots of space for a permanent museum building. The erecting shop might even be available sooner or later. This in itself is worth preserving, having been the place of birth for so much of our railway heritage.

I would love to see a proper transport museum in Ireland like in London with buses, trams and railway rolling stock from throughout the history of the state. It would get more people interested and passionate especially the younger generation for transport.

I notice a lack of this kind of thing in Ireland.

Effects · 14-04-2021 11:08PM

GT89 wrote: »

I would love to see a proper transport museum in Ireland like in London with buses, trams and railway rolling stock from throughout the history of the state. It would get more people interested and passionate especially the younger generation for transport.

I notice a lack of this kind of thing in Ireland.

I don't think most young people care about such things really.
But more accessibility to retired stock would make it easier.

IE 222 · 14-04-2021 11:29PM

I could see a number of 8100s been kept. They're an iconic part of Dublin and It should be easy enough to keep 3 or 4 sets running. Operating the Howth Branch on weekends would be easy work for them and people can still see and use them in service.

In terms of DMUs it would be much easier to keep an operational 26 or 28 running rather than going to the bother of restoring a 27.

Would IE have any need or use of keeping a 26/28 for permanent way or maintenance work. Didn't NIR convert an 80 class for sandite duties.

GT89 · 15-04-2021 01:26AM

Effects wrote: »

I don't think most young people care about such things really.
But more accessibility to retired stock would make it easier.

I'm more talking about aimed at young children and like. It would give people more of an appreciation for things like public transport from an early age and hopefully that would continue as they get older for example teenage children might use a bus or train to travel of getting their parents to give them a lift.

I've been in similar museums in other countries and children seem to love them. Ireland doesn't seem to have the same public transport culture that exists on the continent and even in the UK although that is changing.

TheBoyConor · 15-04-2021 02:25AM

We have the "national" transport museum in howth but that's privately run and it's more or less just a shed.. Fair play to the lads that keep it going. They were doing important work.

They are very limited on space there. They are at full capacity and beyond. You have to such your gut in and shuffle between exhibits.

Wasn't there a fire there a few years ago. It's very lucky the whole lot didn't go up in smoke with how tightly together everything is packed.

Wasn't there talk of an actual National transport museum, state sponsored a few years back. Maybe a boom time project. But it never got going. What happened there?

And remember jackie whelan on the WCR was on about setting up a museum some years back.. Again, unfortunately, nothing ever happened. What happened with that?

tabbey · 15-04-2021 11:22AM

TheBoyConor wrote: »

We have the "national" transport museum in howth but that's privately run and it's more or less just a shed.. Fair play to the lads that keep it going. They were doing important work.

The guys in Howth are very much to be congratulated, they have laboured for decades without any thanks from the state or the people.
Not merely does the Howth collection need and deserve a larger and more suitable premises, but other forms of transport need to be accommodated, preferably rail connected.
Northern Ireland has a state funded comprehensive transport museum, connected to the Bangor line at Cultra. It was was developed in spite of civil disorder prevailing at the time and in spite of a population just 40% of our own.
The problem is one of priority. In this state, it's of no importance if it does not line the pockets of the property or legal sectors or some other group which fund and control our political parties.

TheBoyConor · 15-04-2021 11:41AM

100% agree. Cultra is an amazing achievement in preservation for Northern Ireland, considering the that the statelet was heavily racked with low level warfare around that time. One would have imagined that a transport museum would be a long way down the priority list.

We in the 26 have no excuse for not having similar. It is a shame. The howth lads have done an excellent job considering the non-existent support they have gotten. They are the custodians of transport history until such time that a proper state funded museum comes into being.

GT89 · 15-04-2021 11:46AM

tabbey wrote: »

The guys in Howth are very much to be congratulated, they have laboured for decades without any thanks from the state or the people.
Not merely does the Howth collection need and deserve a larger and more suitable premises, but other forms of transport need to be accommodated, preferably rail connected.
Northern Ireland has a state funded comprehensive transport museum, connected to the Bangor line at Cultra. It was was developed in spite of civil disorder prevailing at the time and in spite of a population just 40% of our own.
The problem is one of priority. In this state, it's of no importance if it does not line the pockets of the property or legal sectors or some other group which fund and control our political parties.

I always thought incorporating the Fry Model railway and a transport museum would be a good idea. Yeah I've been to the Howth Transport Museum a few times,especially myself and thought it was good but it really needs a proper museum. It's more a collection in Howth rather than a museum.

Whatever happened to the DART 8200 EMU units?

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