AI on sucklers

k mac wrote: »

If you were starting from scratch with 7/8 cows on 18 acres of mostly marginal wet peaty ground and a 3 bay slatted shed what cows would you go with and using AI, what bull. Main considerations would be no.1, ease of calving, docility and if possible to sell progeny as weanlings in the mart, if not either selling as stores before the second winter or bringing to finish. Another consideration would be calving possibly outdoor in April, also as the ground is wet would the likes of hereford or angus cows be best as they are not as heavy, and might not eat as much considering there is not a big acreage.

Farming similar
On 18 Ac I’d sell all as weanlings and run about 8 cows with their calves
Ideally calve in Feb/Mar and sell in Autumn
LM & SI bred cows with CH calves
Personally I’ve had the HE & AA cows and ours were no easier to keep than the CH LM or SI
Don’t over stock as in a wet year the ground will be too soft & on a very dry year you could cut some bales with the extra grass

k mac wrote: »

Agree would want to be calving in Feb/Mar if you want to sell as weanlings, was only thinking of calving in April as it might be possible calve out beside the shed in a paddock, no real facilities of sheds for calving, at first the only option would be to straw 1 bay of the slatted shed and calve there which would not be ideal. How is the charlous for ease of calving??, and Lim cows for temperament?

Calving outside is alright when things go ok
If there is any issues you need a calving gate
Have no issues with the cows, anything bad for temperament, milk, calving ability or calf quality goes
A bull used this year was 8.9% and we’d no issue
You need to get the cow right and match the bull to her

Advice I would give you is buy a Bull as if you don't you will end up with empties.
I have 10 cows here myself and before I bought a Bull 2 years ago I had in certain years up to 4 empties after AI.
On top of the empties it's very hard to keep tight calving interval and a calf every 365 years without a Bull

I only started calving there since Monday. Calving outdoors, have a bit of paddock with a strip wire that I'm willing to sacrifice and cows go out first thing in the morning and come back into the shed for the night. All gathered at gap in the evening and looking to come back for grub. They get silage and minerals in the shed. Also anything close to calving I put into the feed passage on straw and under the camera. Straw usage is very little. It works wonders on the cows having them out as they are clean and more importantly they have a bit of time to loosen out and excerise. Really helps with calving. Had a cryto and rotavirus outbreak a few years ago and decided to let calving slip to the start of April. Heavy ground here means the cows are the last out, so it is great to have them out with the calf straight away. First time the calf sees the shed is back end of the year

Getting cows in calf in late June and early July is a pleasure as they are on a good plane of nutrition and also heat on their backs.
An option to consider maybe fixed time Ai. When you weigh up the costs of keeping a bull for that many cows it is a no brainer. Costs around €22 a cow plus then the straw. Your breeding is condensed to a 6-7 week block and this give tightens calving spread
Consider easy calving Aubrac, Charolais, limo, pick to suit your cow and heifers,

I finish everything here, but you could consider selling them as yearlings in late march ready for grass.
Mine stay under the cows until mid to late January and creep from the cows in a slatted pen beside them. Again no bedding costs.

Personally I would never go back to February/ March calving. Just too much disease build up in sheds. Best place for a cow to calve is outdoors,

k mac wrote: »

When you say fixed time ai do you mean sponging? You seem to have a good system

CDIR so yep sponging the vet calls and puts in the coils. Had great success over the last 2 years. 25 done last year and 22 held to first serve, picked the next 3 up 3weeks later. It in the Ai man's interest to have a good strike as he will never get it as handy, with all the serves in one day and he is not traveling for ones and twos.

It's all about getting a system to work for you. Not following anyone else system. Anytime you have to deal with a difficult calving it's affecting the cows chance of going back on calf. The profitable cow is the one that just does the business on her own. Goes in calf quickly to one or 2 serves, calves on her own with a live calf, and a calf that gets up and goes. Having a lot of time dealing with doozey calves trying to get them to suck, bedding sheds and calving pens, its a pleasure to go out the small corner and seeing cows doing the business themselves.
Cows spend long winters in sheds and the lack of movement could be behind some of the tricky calvings. Excerise is vital and it lets the cow clean off.

k mac wrote: »

Good advice my reasoning for thinking ai is I'll probably be working from home full time and catching them in heat shouldn't be a problem, as well you have a bigger choice with ai and can pick and choose bulls.Can I ask why you were having so many empties, was it missing them in heat or repeats?

Yes I work full time so suppose it was missing them in heat or not AI'ing at the correct time as wouldn't have been sure of exact onset of heat.
They were repeating also leading to calving interval slipping.
I don't know myself since I got the Bull though and often wonder how I used to have time to be putting them in for AI which is not always that straight forward either at times
Few people I've talked to would be of the same opinion in that if we didn't have a Bull we probably wouldn't keep sucklers anymore.

On the other hand it is great to be able to pick different Bulls for different Cows and if you can manage it then great but I won't be going back to AI.

mr.stonewall wrote: »

CDIR so yep sponging the vet calls and puts in the coils. Had great success over the last 2 years. 25 done last year and 22 held to first serve, picked the next 3 up 3weeks later.

Excerise is vital and it lets the cow clean off.

22/25 is a serious strike rate. I used to do about 5-6 heifers every year and averaged about 3/5 4/6. One year I had 5/5 and another year I had 1/5 Only ever did heifers as vet told me didn’t work as well on older cows. What age bracket were your 25 cows?

100% on the exercise

Who2 wrote: »

There are always plenty of aged bulls with nothing wrong only the owner holding heifers that are sold through mart rings for beef price. If I was running those numbers I’d be picking up a bull and selling on after a short stint with the cows.

+1

jfh wrote: »

Hi Mr stonewall, whats the cost per cow for the vet call out, coil and ai? Playing around with the idea myself. Thanks

Worked out at €22 per cost Inc call out of vet to put coils in. Paid the vet leaving the yard. After that it's the cost of ai. Ai company maybe willing to do a deal with all serves on the one time. Average cost of about €30
Comes to a total cost of €1250 over 25 cows or about €50 a head. No cost of carrying a bull for the year or winter and then replacement. In small herds with part time it's a no brainer

jfh wrote: »

Was that with just estramate, wouldn't think you'd use coil on heifers?

Cows and heifers get coils and the same protocol from vet. Again keep it simple and put all on the same.

50HX wrote: »

Would your air man not put the prids in for you?

Vet does a lot of them and supplies everything at a competitive price. Saving 1 or 2 euro per cow is not worth the hassle

jfh wrote: »

I'd like to tighten up the calving period, goes from end of Feb here to June, far too long. Weather or something must have changed when the bull was with them, first 15 calved pretty quickly, then long break to the next bunch. I'd like to try fixed time ai to see how things go.
Just surmising to myself Mr stonewall, thanks for the info

Look carefully at when the cows go incalf. I had to cull alot of older cows about 6-7 years ago. Very agey cows. Breed all in calf heifers, carefully picking from the the cows that always went in calf and calved within the year. Passengers and trouble got the road. This is the foundation to the a suckler here. No calf no cashflow. Certain cows and cow families had this trait and work with it. I forget about having monster calves. If the cow can calve on her own, she has a way better chance of going back in calf. Last year had one with a twisted calf that was dead and need the jack. Great cow, from a good bull and good cow family, but she had to go as she would be a passenger for the year. This year's is has a great calving spread of about 25 days. Let's say 4-5 weeks from start to finish.

The more I think about the calving jack, just gets too much use in the suckler herd. Breeding is all about taking small steps forward to improve your herd. There is no silver bullet. Are we reducing the chance of our cows going back in calf. Do we need to review our breeding choices

I nearly consider the breeding period more important than calving, I have full control of the cows. Where as with calving the cow has to calve the calf.

jfh wrote: »

Was that with just estramate, wouldn't think you'd use coil on heifers?

Yes, coil used on heifers and injected with estrumate. AI on day 3 and day 4 again after coils taken out.

tanko wrote: »

Why are people using coils etc on heifers, a shot estrumate should get any heifer bulling if that's want you want to do.

Vet recommended that it’s the whole 9 yards to do both coils and estrumate.

If i was a cynical aul git i'd say of course he does, more money for him.
Heifers are the most fertile animals in the herd, they should be mad bulling without any help and a shot of estrumate should be all they need if synchronising them.

Anyway each to their own.

Have been breeding replacements off the most fertile cows which calve early in the calving season here for a few years now. Fertility good or bad is passed down the generations imo. Highly fertile cows will usually have daughters with good fertility. Using bulls which breed daughters with poor fertility can mess all this up of course.