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Derek Chauvin murder trial (George Floyd)

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Comments

  • #722
    wicklowstevo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 919 ✭✭✭wicklowstevo


    briany wrote: »
    There was no resistance Floyd showed that necessitated being pinned to the ground, knee on back of the neck for that long. At the very least, once he stops struggling, you can have a conversation about releasing the hold, which didn't happen. In fact, there was no sign of when Chauvin planned on releasing the hold. It obviously wasn't when Floyd stopped resisting, because the knee continued to applied even after Floyd was totally unresponsive. Amazing to me how anyone sees that as reasonable behaviour by a police officer.

    Again . How do you deal with ie restrain arrest and transport a
    6'8
    250 ld
    heavily intoxicated
    resistant non compliant
    career criminal
    on the street with a hostile area
    with out hurting him ?

    you must have some kind of expertise in the area


  • #723
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    wicklowstevo wrote: »
    im suggesting that race is playing a huge part in the TRIAL

    Ah right. I was wondering because the video of the incident didn't make it seem like it was a racist incident.


  • #724
    osarusan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,878 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    wicklowstevo wrote: »
    Again . How do you deal with ie restrain arrest and transport a
    6'8
    250 ld
    heavily intoxicated
    resistant non compliant
    career criminal
    on the street with a hostile area
    with out hurting him ?

    you must have some kind of expertise in the area


    They had already restrained him. He was initially very very agressive and needed to be forcefully restrained and they did so. I have no issue with what happened up until he was face down beside the police car. I can even accept that the initial knee restraint can be justified.

    The issue is why Chauvin continued to employ this particular restraint technique well after it was needed to restrain Floyd - even after he had lost consciousness.

    I don't think anybody on this thread has offered any justification for the prolonged knee restraint which I find even remotely believable.


  • #725
    flanna01
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 966 ✭✭✭flanna01


    The outcome / verdict of this trial will have the same consequences for Minneapolis.

    Minneapolis burns.

    In turn, this will probably spark similar riots & burnings right across the major City's of the United States.


  • #726
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,970 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    osarusan wrote: »
    They had already restrained him. He was initially very very agressive and needed to be forcefully restrained and they did so. I have no issue with what happened up until he was face down beside the police car. I can even accept that the initial knee restraint can be justified.

    The issue is why Chauvin continued to employ this particular restraint technique well after it was needed to restrain Floyd - even after he had lost consciousness.

    I don't think anybody on this thread has offered any justification for the prolonged knee restraint which I find even remotely believable.

    Yes. I can agree with all this..

    Amy my answer is: Chauvin was irked by the crowd berating him and annoying him. That is exactly how he viewed the crowd that day. His whole demeanour and look was of someone who was sticking it to the onlookers who were telling him to stop. He had a contemptuous look on his face.

    “Don’t effing tell me what I can and cannot do.”

    Power hungry cop went OTT on a man that was no longer a threat..


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  • #727
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    walshb wrote: »
    Yes. I can agree with all this..

    Amy my answer is: Chauvin was irked by the crowd berating him and annoying him. That is exactly how he viewed the crowd that day. His whole demeanour and look was of someone who was sticking it to the onlookers who were telling him to stop. He had a contemptuous look on his face.

    “Don’t effing tell me what I can and cannot do.”

    Power hungry cop went OTT on a man that was no longer a threat..

    Or, and I'm not saying this is the case, but maybe the crowd distracted him from paying enough care to George Floyd.


  • #728
    MeMen2_MoRi_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,982 ✭✭✭MeMen2_MoRi_


    wicklowstevo wrote: »
    how do you restrain and protect yourself from a
    6'8
    250 + pound
    American
    Violent criminal
    High on a cocktail of drugs
    Actively resisting arrest
    etc etc ?

    I see you are willfully ignoring the point of my post.

    I'll leave you to go and read it again.


  • #729
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,970 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    Or, and I'm not saying this is the case, but maybe the crowd distracted him from paying enough care to George Floyd.

    Possible. But his body language and look seemed to me like he was showing who was in charge. He overdid it....


  • #730
    CIARAN_BOYLE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,595 ✭✭✭✭CIARAN_BOYLE


    wicklowstevo wrote: »
    Again . How do you deal with ie restrain arrest and transport a
    6'8
    250 ld
    heavily intoxicated
    resistant non compliant
    career criminal
    on the street with a hostile area
    with out hurting him ?

    you must have some kind of expertise in the area

    If you feel it's necessary to kneel on his neck until he passes out from lack of oxygen get off his neck when he goes unconscious.

    I don't like the restraint used. That's a bias of mine and I accept that. It's policy though. Therefore it's an acceptable restraint for a police officer to use in execution of his duties.

    The thing is a police officer owes the person they are restraining due care and attention.

    That means it's Chauvin duty to know if Floyd is conscious or unconscious, alive or dead. If Floyd is unconscious he no longer needs to be restrained.

    The moment Floyd goes unconscious is fairly easy to determine on camera. I believe Chauvin should have found it easy to determine in person. If Chauvin didn't know when Floyd went unconscious (he should have) he was later told by a colleague ("we should roll him onto his side" meaning he is unconscious put him in a recovery position) and by members of the crowd.


  • #731
    penny piper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 524 ✭✭✭penny piper


    walshb wrote: »
    Possible. But his body language and look seemed to me like he was showing who was in charge. He overdid it....


    He can't help the way his face looks...he looks the same all the time....and what body language are you meaning?
    And should you mention.... no he didn't have his hands in his pockets as has been suggested numerous times...he was wearing black gloves and dark trousers and had his hand resting on his own thigh....it's only from a distance he looked like he had his hand in his pocket.... wasn't it chauvan that called for the medics?
    Didn't the first paramedic say to Eric Nelson when questioned that he was leaning slightly to the left....?


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  • #732
    Biker79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Biker79


    There is a real difficulty here because what this boils down to is:

    1. Should the police go to extraordinary lengths to ensure the wellbeing of a suspect who is intoxicated, a known violent criminal and a potential threat themselves and bystanders.

    2. Or should the emphasis be on suspects with violent histories complying with police requests.

    Floyd had more red flags than a Chinese parade. Inevitably, there comes a point where his persistent lack of cooperation is going to wear thin. At some point, decisive action has to be taken when someone is not co-operating. The police have to prioritise their own safety first.

    The obvious solution is to comply with the police. Haven't seen that mentioned once in this thread.


  • #733
    walshb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 58,970 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    Biker79 wrote: »
    There is a real difficulty here because what this boils down to is:

    1. Should the police go to extraordinary lengths to ensure the wellbeing of a suspect who is intoxicated, a known violent criminal and a potential threat themselves and bystanders.

    2. Or should the emphasis be on suspects with violent histories complying with police requests.

    Floyd had more red flags then a Chinese parade. Inevitably, there comes a point where his persistent lack of cooperation is going to wear thin. At some point, decisive action has to be taken when someone is not co-operating. The police have to prioritise their own safety first.

    The obvious solution is to comply with the police. Haven't seen that mentioned once in this thread.

    Yes, agree with most of this..

    But I think Chauvin went too far. And this is pretty much the issue.

    Floyd may well have survived had Chauvin not went as intense as he did. He spent quite a time kneeling down on a man that looked very much to be unable to do a thing. Plus, it didn’t look as if Chauvin released any pressure...it was continuous pressure on a man that was weakening and weakening. Chauvin had to know that George was both weakening and not a threat..

    Other officers were also restraining him..


  • #734
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,294 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Biker79 wrote: »
    There is a real difficulty here because what this boils down to is:

    1. Should the police go to extraordinary lengths to ensure the wellbeing of a suspect who is intoxicated, a known violent criminal and a potential threat themselves and bystanders.

    2. Or should the emphasis be on suspects with violent histories complying with police requests.

    Floyd had more red flags then a Chinese parade. Inevitably, there comes a point where his persistent lack of cooperation is going to wear thin. At some point, decisive action has to be taken when someone is not co-operating. The police have to prioritise their own safety first.

    The obvious solution is to comply with the police. Haven't seen that mentioned once in this thread.

    I wouldn't call taking your knee off the neck of a suspect who's already telling you they can't breathe going to an extraordinary length to ensure the wellbeing of a suspect. I'd call that making sure the suspect doesn't die unnecessarily in your custody.

    As to Floyd being a threat, and he was a huge man all hopped up drugs, and god knows what could have happened etc. the cops were still able to drag him out of the SUV he had been sitting in, they were able to get the handcuffs on him and they were able to walk him over to the police car. None of this suggests the cops on the scene were so afraid of him and his terrifying physical prowess that the constant knee to the neck was needed.

    How about this - once Floyd was on the ground and stopped struggling, but had continued to say he couldn't breathe, why couldn't Chauvin have said he'd release the hold but asked Floyd for no sudden movements, just lay still on the ground. The cops are all around him, if Floyd tries anything, like getting up to run away, he can be pinned down again.


  • #735
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,294 ✭✭✭✭briany


    wicklowstevo wrote: »
    Again . How do you deal with ie restrain arrest and transport a
    6'8
    250 ld
    heavily intoxicated
    resistant non compliant
    career criminal
    on the street with a hostile area
    with out hurting him ?

    you must have some kind of expertise in the area

    :rolleyes:

    I have some common sense, and at least two police have taken to the stand for the prosecution to give their opinion that the knee to the neck for that long was unnecessary and excessive force, so I'll refer you to them.


  • #736
    Biker79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Biker79


    walshb wrote: »
    Yes, agree with most of this..

    But I think Chauvin went too far. And this is pretty much the issue.

    Floyd may well have survived had Chauvin not went as intense as he did. He spent quite a time kneeling down on a man that looked very much to be unable to do a thing. Plus, it didn’t look as if Chauvin released any pressure...it was continuous pressure on a man that was weakening and weakening. Chauvin had to know that George was both weakening and not a threat..

    Other officers were also restraining him..

    There comes a point when ' going too far ' becomes a high risk.

    That point can be avoided by complying with police requests. The risk of escalation has to be acknowledged by both parties and they both have to work to avoid that happening.

    When you consider Floyd did nothing to stop this..and everything to encourage it...you have to conclude that his death was a sad outcome of an inevitable escalation in the application of power.

    Floyd had plenty of opportunity to stop this escalation. The full video which was not released for months, illustrates that clearly. He chose not to co-operate on multiple occasions.

    Ultimately the balance of power in these interactions has to be with the police - otherwise there is a break down of law and order. You could actually make the point that the police were too accommodating of his intoxication. Once it was established he was intoxicated, they should have called in for a ambulance/ police truck and stuck him in a cell for the night.

    But perhaps when they realized had a violent criminal history they weren't going to do him many favours.


  • #737
    Joe_ Public
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,023 ✭✭✭✭Joe_ Public


    Biker79 wrote: »
    There comes a point when ' going to far ' becomes a high risk.

    That point can be avoided by complying with police requests. The risk of escalation has to be acknowledged by both parties and they both have to work to avoid that happening.

    When you consider Floyd did nothing to stop this..and everything to encourage it...you have to conclude that his death was a sad outcome of an inevitable escalation in the application of power.

    Floyd had plenty of opportunity to stop this escalation. The full video which was not released for months, illustrates that clearly. He chose not to co-operate on multiple occasions.

    Ultimately the balance of power in these interactions has to be with the police - otherwise there is a break down of law and order. You could actually make the point that the police were too accommodating of his intoxication. Once it was established he was intoxicated, they should have called in for a ambulance/ police truck and stuck him in a cell for the night.

    But perhaps when they realized had a violent criminal history they weren't going to do him many favours.

    When did they become aware of Floyd's past history? All they knew at first was he'd tried to pass off a fake note in a convenience store. At what point did they learn of his identity and past history? And i would imagine if George Floyd's past history is relevant to the outcome of the trial, then Derek Chauvains past conduct is equally relevant too?


  • #738
    Biker79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Biker79


    briany wrote: »
    I wouldn't call taking your knee off the neck of a suspect who's already telling you they can't breathe going to an extraordinary length to ensure the wellbeing of a suspect. I'd call that making sure the suspect doesn't die unnecessarily in your custody.

    As to Floyd being a threat, and he was a huge man all hopped up drugs, and god knows what could have happened etc. the cops were still able to drag him out of the SUV he had been sitting in, they were able to get the handcuffs on him and they were able to walk him over to the police car. None of this suggests the cops on the scene were so afraid of him and his terrifying physical prowess that the constant knee to the neck was needed.

    How about this - once Floyd was on the ground and stopped struggling, but had continued to say he couldn't breathe, why couldn't Chauvin have said he'd release the hold but asked Floyd for no sudden movements, just lay still on the ground. The cops are all around him, if Floyd tries anything, like getting up to run away, he can be pinned down again.

    You keep mentioning this while omitting the fact that this had been going on for almost an hour. Floyd had a lot of personal agency which he chose not to exercise.

    Your posts are appealing to the emotion of the incident and not the facts. Just like BLM did in order to justify the riots.


  • #739
    Biker79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Biker79


    Joe_ Public wrote: »
    When did they become aware of Floyd's past history? All they knew at first was he'd tried to pass off a fake note in a convenience store. At what point did they learn of his identity and past history? And i would imagine if George Floyd's past history is relevant to the outcome of the trial, then Derek Chauvains past conduct is equally relevant too?

    No. If Chauvins past was really an issue, it would have been dealt with by the police.

    We don't know, for example, if complaints against him where as a result of opportunistic civil rights lawyers, and criminals trying to game the system.

    If he was really a bad egg, he would have been dealt with internally.


  • #740
    briany
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,294 ✭✭✭✭briany


    Biker79 wrote: »
    You keep mentioning this while omitting the fact that this had been going on for almost an hour. Floyd had a lot of personal agency which he chose not to exercise.

    Your posts are appealing to the emotion of the incident and not the facts. Just like BLM did in order to justify the riots.

    The resistance to arrest that Floyd showed up until the point that Chauvin kneeled on him did not justify the cops not listening to Floyd's repeated exclamations that he was in physical distress, so what personal agency Floyd did or did not exercise up until that point is irrelevant. But the way Floyd did act did not warrant the response by Chauvin and his colleagues to kneel on him and then to ignore Floyd's pleas, which turned out to be true, and continue ignoring them until Floyd was dead. It would be a hell of a procedure in the Minneapolis police training manual if it said to kneel on the neck of a suspect who's resisting arrest, and continue doing so even if the suspect says they're in medical distress.


  • #741
    penny piper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 524 ✭✭✭penny piper


    briany wrote: »
    But the way Floyd did act did not warrant the response by Chauvin and his colleagues to kneel on him and then to ignore Floyd's pleas, which turned out to be true, and continue ignoring them until Floyd was dead. It would be a hell of a procedure in the Minneapolis police training manual if it said to kneel on the neck of a suspect who's resisting arrest, and continue doing so even if the suspect says they're in medical distress.

    They were dealing with someone who was high on drugs...he was resisting arrest.....he wouldn't stay in the police car...said he was leaving and when those officers had him on the ground he was kicking hence the restraint used.. which is an acceptable form of restraint by minneapolis officers if not a dangerous restraint..chauvan called for medics....when floyd was first spoken to by the other officer...he said many things....distress/dying/couldn't breathe...yet he was still about to drive off in a car.....


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  • #742
    Billy Mays
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,383 ✭✭✭Billy Mays


    wicklowstevo wrote: »
    Again . How do you deal with ie restrain arrest and transport a
    6'8
    250 ld
    heavily intoxicated
    resistant non compliant
    career criminal
    on the street with a hostile area
    with out hurting him ?

    you must have some kind of expertise in the area
    You've misspelled killing there icon14.png


  • #743
    BorneTobyWilde
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,945 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    wicklowstevo wrote: »
    Again . How do you deal with ie restrain arrest and transport a
    6'8
    250 ld
    heavily intoxicated
    resistant non compliant
    career criminal
    on the street with a hostile area
    with out hurting him ?

    you must have some kind of expertise in the area




    Eh just cuffs, which he willingly put on. At that point he was no danger, and didn't need 4 cops on him until he died.


  • #744
    McCrack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,016 ✭✭✭McCrack


    There's something unlikeable about Chauvin. I get a sense of arrogance from him in the court as he takes notes of the evidence even though his side will be provided with transcripts.


  • #745
    MeMen2_MoRi_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,982 ✭✭✭MeMen2_MoRi_


    McCrack wrote: »
    There's something unlikeable about Chauvin. I get a sense of arrogance from him in the court as he takes notes of the evidence even though his side will be provided with transcripts.

    Showing more attention to detail then he did with George Floyd.

    Maybe it's the quietness in the courtroom that's helping his focus.


  • #746
    BorneTobyWilde
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,945 ✭✭✭✭BorneTobyWilde


    McCrack wrote: »
    There's something unlikeable about Chauvin. I get a sense of arrogance from him in the court as he takes notes of the evidence even though his side will be provided with transcripts.


    Shows no remorse, pleads not guilty to everything. This in itself should lead to a much longer sentence when convicted.


  • #747
    penny piper
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 524 ✭✭✭penny piper


    BorneTobyWilde wrote: »
    Shows no remorse, pleads not guilty to everything. This in itself should lead to a much longer sentence when convicted.

    Why should he show remorse if he's not pleading guilty?


  • #748
    Biker79
    Closed Accounts Posts: 794 ✭✭✭Biker79


    A positive outcome from this case would be BLM engaging with the communities they claim to represent with a ' how to interact with police ' program.

    If Chauvin is acquitted, lets see if they will do something like this and actually prevent more people from dying during arrests.

    Or lets see if they'll riot instead.


  • #749
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,867 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    Biker79 wrote: »
    A positive outcome from this case would be BLM engaging with the communities they claim to represent with a ' how to interact with police ' program.

    If Chauvin is acquitted, lets see if they will do something like this and actually prevent more people from dying during arrests.

    Or lets see if they'll riot instead.

    I think it will be option B Bob.


  • #750
    Billy Mays
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,383 ✭✭✭Billy Mays


    Train To Busan wrote: »
    Will be great fun if you're white and live somewhere like Chicongo.
    edgy icon14.png


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  • #751
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I think Chauvin is guilty of a crime, i don't think it is murder but what he did was reckless and would probably come under manslaughter here.

    I wouldn't like to think the jury would make their decision with one eye on the potential unrest outside.


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