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Leo Varadkar story in The Village??? - Mod Notes and banned Users in OP updated 16/05

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Comments

  • #8222
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    I have no doubt that Varadkar will have been the subject of personal abuse. I'd say that only a small, but not insignificant amount of it has been homophobic. However I think personal attacks on politicians is actually an endemic issue. As it stands I have no idea why anyone would choose to get into politics and allow themselves to be subject to that level of vitriol.

    I do think that personalized hashtag campaigns of the style of #PaddyThePieceOfSht does encourage this sort of behavior, and we also have a lot of people saying that they don't care about legal procedure in relation to the subject of the thread (either saying that the police investigation is irrelevant, or that the police cannot be trusted because of vague conspiracy mutterings). Again this doesn't exactly foster healthy political discourse.


  • #8223
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,725 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It's possible to be critical/unhappy of LV, FG, the Government etc. There's no issue with that. It's this relatively new thing where politicians are harassed, abused, and threatened mostly on social media, but increasingly in real life as well that is so worrying. We have great access to our politicians in Ireland, but that will change if this nastiness continues. You'll also reach a stage where no one will want to go into politics due to the abuse - Leo out for a run with his partner getting abuse from some incoherent thick, people with pirate flags in their profile hoping Helen McEntee miscarries her child, SF supporters lumping on journalists for having the temerity to write about the largest party in opposition etc.

    It's chilling stuff, and if you lie down with dogs then you wake up with fleas.


  • #8224
    Suckit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,211 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It's possible to be critical/unhappy of LV, FG, the Government etc. There's no issue with that. It's this relatively new thing where politicians are harassed, abused, and threatened mostly on social media, but increasingly in real life as well that is so worrying. We have great access to our politicians in Ireland, but that will change if this nastiness continues. You'll also reach a stage where no one will want to go into politics due to the abuse - Leo out for a run with his partner getting abuse from some incoherent thick, people with pirate flags in their profile hoping Helen McEntee miscarries her child, SF supporters lumping on journalists for having the temerity to write about the largest party in opposition etc.

    It's chilling stuff, and if you lie down with dogs then you wake up with fleas.

    First off... If you think the general public are going to pull back on abusing politicians because they don't 'like' or 'accept' it then you should keep hoping, wishing, praying and whatever else it is you do when you don't like something.
    I agree that it mustn't be pleasant being called a w*nker while out on a jog or walk, but it happens to almost all politicians, usually the ones higher up and that are more disliked.
    It will NEVER reach a stage that 'no one' will want to go into politics.
    Do you think that peoples lives are unaffected by a politicians decisions?
    If that is the case then you should stay far away from anything political. Sometimes (often) people have had enough, and until they find a way to lock them down and suppress them, then expect abuse.

    FWIW, IMO what Leo got there, is name calling.
    As a politician, he can choose to call it abuse.


  • #8225
    shtpEdthePlum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 556 ✭✭✭shtpEdthePlum


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Any examples?
    The other day he made some smug quip about everybody thinking he's Taoiseach.

    He's a dickhead.


  • #8226
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,725 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    shtpEdthePlum wrote: »
    The other day he made some smug quip about everybody thinking he's Taoiseach.

    He's a dickhead.


    Ya, that's exactly the same as being issued with death threats, being called a wanker while out for a run with his partner, and having homophobic losers on Twitter suggest he's just back from a cottaging session.


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  • #8227
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,013 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    It's possible to be critical/unhappy of LV, FG, the Government etc. There's no issue with that. It's this relatively new thing where politicians are harassed, abused, and threatened mostly on social media, but increasingly in real life as well that is so worrying. We have great access to our politicians in Ireland, but that will change if this nastiness continues. You'll also reach a stage where no one will want to go into politics due to the abuse - Leo out for a run with his partner getting abuse from some incoherent thick, people with pirate flags in their profile hoping Helen McEntee miscarries her child, SF supporters lumping on journalists for having the temerity to write about the largest party in opposition etc.

    It's chilling stuff, and if you lie down with dogs then you wake up with fleas.

    Where do you stand on people calling members of the public 'scum' or 'slow' based on who they vote for? FG, nor Varadkar are above such behaviour as you describe. We've their defenders abusing minorities to use for deflection.
    IMO if people stick to the politics we won't go far wrong.

    Varadkar is a poor public representative with many flaws. He's currently under criminal investigation.


  • #8228
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 2,725 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    James Brown wrote: »
    Where do you stand on people calling members of the public 'scum' or 'slow' based on who they vote for? FG, nor Varadkar are above such behaviour as you describe. We've their defenders abusing minorities to use for deflection.
    IMO if people stick to the politics we won't go far wrong.


    You're the lad who decided to create an account here with a username of Varadkar's partner, and then proceeded to mention 'Leo', 'LV', 'Varadkar' thousands of times. I'm not suggesting you are homophobic for a second, but, you are, in a small and insignificant way, part of the wider issue. Your animus towards him is obsessional, and it all feeds into this frenzy of nastiness that is affecting politicians from across the political spectrum. Criticise the government, opposition, political ideologies, even statements, but obsession with an individual is weird tbh.



    It's not good. It's bad for a social democracy like Ireland, as it individualises everything.


  • #8229
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,311 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Sure does prove that he's being targeted and harassed out of a thinly-veiled homophobic obsession .

    It proves that he is the target of online homophobic abuse, which was the point.
    I know people like to dress it down and go, 'ah sure its not that bad' but then they are not the target of said abuse.

    In the week where there has been a lot of attention brought on social media companies not doing anything about various abuse levelled out on their platform, I would have thought it was a good point to make. But some people are knee-deep in this type of behaviour so....


  • #8230
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 846 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    markodaly wrote: »
    It proves that he is the target of online homophobic abuse, which was the point.
    No, that wasn't the point - but thanks for completely missing the actual point that's already been explained several times.

    I know people like to dress it down and go, 'ah sure its not that bad' but then they are not the target of said abuse.

    In the week where there has been a lot of attention brought on social media companies not doing anything about various abuse levelled out on their platform, I would have thought it was a good point to make. But some people are knee-deep in this type of behaviour so....
    That wasn't the point made and you're making a strawman.

    It'd be nice if you could read the posts you're responding to in the future, ta. You can start with this one.


  • #8231
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,311 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Suckit wrote: »

    FWIW, IMO what Leo got there, is name calling.
    As a politician, he can choose to call it abuse.

    So homophobic abuse is not abuse, got it.


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  • #8232
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 846 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    markodaly wrote: »
    So homophobic abuse is not abuse, got it.
    He was referring to the video where someone called him a useless wanker - how on Earth do you think 'useless wanker' is homophobic?


  • #8233
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,311 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You're the lad who decided to create an account here with a username of Varadkar's partner, and then proceeded to mention 'Leo', 'LV', 'Varadkar' thousands of times. I'm not suggesting you are homophobic for a second, but, you are, in a small and insignificant way, part of the wider issue. Your animus towards him is obsessional, and it all feeds into this frenzy of nastiness that is affecting politicians from across the political spectrum. Criticise the government, opposition, political ideologies, even statements, but obsession with an individual is weird tbh.



    It's not good. It's bad for a social democracy like Ireland, as it individualises everything.

    Yes, there is a lot of that going on. Perpetual outrage at everything and social media is another outlet where one can abuse others anytime and anywhere, without having to leave the house. Its also effortless, back in the day, if you wanted to abuse someone, you would have to ring them up, or send them a letter. Too much work for many but now, its easy.


  • #8234
    markodaly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,311 ✭✭✭✭markodaly


    Deleted User wrote: »
    He was referring to the video where someone called him a useless wanker - how on Earth do you think 'useless wanker' is homophobic?

    Being called a useless wanker would be abuse in my book, not homophobic but abuse nontheless. The comments on Twitter IS homophobic though and people dress it down as nothing.


  • #8235
    Pintman Paddy Losty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,913 ✭✭✭Pintman Paddy Losty


    It's not surprising to see the usual suspects either playing down the abuse, or excusing it entirely, implying Varadkar deserves it or brought it on himself.

    It's very revealing to be honest.


  • #8236
    shtpEdthePlum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 556 ✭✭✭shtpEdthePlum


    Politicians are public figures

    They are in the public eye.

    Not everybody is going to like them

    They often behave in a way unbefitting of their office and pay grade

    Some people will take it upon themselves to express their opinions about the conduct of these politicians

    We should have stricter laws governing it but as it stands, what happened was harmless enough and people should be able to criticise public representatives, especially when they are embroiled in something smelling as foul as Leo's controversy.

    On the whole, if this is the worst thing to happen to Leo all week he's not doing too bad.

    I'm not even a politician or public figure or anything and I received a graphic threat of sexual violence from a builder as I was walking down the street on Friday. There are a lot of nasty people out there.

    If somebody called me a useless wanker from a car I would piss myself laughing. The only way it would hurt my feelings is if I legitimately was a useless wanker


  • #8237
    jmcc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,532 ✭✭✭jmcc


    Fascinating how the the FG supporting media are trying to change the narrative from Varadkar being under criminal investigation to Varardkar getting homophobic abuse. The same attempt to distract from Varadkar being under criminal investigation is evident here. The McEntee puff piece appeared in the ironically named "Sunday Independent", didn't it? No doubt this and the Varadkar homophobic abuse will be pushed as talking points for the media today.

    Regards...jmcc


  • #8238
    Jinglejangle69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,119 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    jmcc wrote: »
    Fascinating how the the FG supporting media are trying to change the narrative from Varadkar being under criminal investigation to Varardkar getting homophobic abuse. The same attempt to distract from Varadkar being under criminal investigation is evident here. The McEntee puff piece appeared in the ironically named "Sunday Independent", didn't it? No doubt this and the Varadkar homophobic abuse will be pushed as talking points for the media today.

    Regards...jmcc

    Everyone is aware of Leo being under investigation at this stage.

    What does deflecting actually achieve?

    He will either be charged or not, and a thread on boards will have no bearing on that decision.

    Paranoia.


  • #8239
    jmcc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,532 ✭✭✭jmcc


    Jinglejangle69 wrote: »
    Everyone is aware of Leo being under investigation at this stage.

    What does deflecting actually achieve?
    The idea is to change the narrative from Varadkar being under criminal investigation for leaking a confidential document to one where Varadkar is the injured party. It is a rather crass attempt at manipulating public opinion. Remember the milkshake event?
    He will either be charged or not, and a thread on boards will have no bearing on that decision.
    That's up to the DPP.
    Paranoia.
    Has Varadkar been interviewed yet (by the Gardai rather than by some FG friendly "journalist")?

    Regards...jmcc


  • #8240
    Fandymo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭Fandymo


    smurgen wrote: »
    Hopefully he'll get to use a mean girl quote or two when he visits the Gardai station.

    He might borrow from the Simpsons. "I didn't do it, nobody saw me do it, you can't prove anything" - Bart


  • #8241
    Jinglejangle69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,119 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    jmcc wrote: »
    The idea is to change the narrative from Varadkar being under criminal investigation for leaking a confidential document to one where Varadkar is the injured party. It is a rather crass attempt at manipulating public opinion. Remember the milkshake event?

    That's up to the DPP.

    Has Varadkar been interviewed yet (by the Gardai rather than by some FG friendly "journalist")?

    Regards...jmcc

    Most people have made their minds up about him at this stage.


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  • #8242
    jmcc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,532 ✭✭✭jmcc


    Jinglejangle69 wrote: »
    Most people have made their minds up about him at this stage.
    He admitted to leaking a confidential document to a friend. He led FG to one of its worst electoral defeats ever. He has destroyed the FG reputation, however misplaced, for decency and honourability.

    He is an asset to SF. His actions led to SF beating FG in the GE. He allowed Charlie Flanagan and his attempt to commemorate the Black and Tans drag FG from around 30% in the opinion polls in late 2019 to just 20% in the GE.

    The more you FGers try to minimise his actions in leaking the confidential document to his friend the worse you are making it. People are tired of the spectacle of middle aged man acting like a schoolgirl on Social Media rather than a politician. And it is damaging FG. But by all means, continue to help SF gain in the polls by not dealing with the Varadkar problem yourselves.

    Regards...jmcc


  • #8243
    Jinglejangle69
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,119 ✭✭✭Jinglejangle69


    jmcc wrote: »
    He admitted to leaking a confidential document to a friend. He led FG to one of its worst electoral defeats ever. He has destroyed the FG reputation, however misplaced, for decency and honourability.

    He is an asset to SF. His actions led to SF beating FG in the GE. He allowed Charlie Flanagan and his attempt top commemorate the Black and Tans drag FG from around 30% in the opinion polls in late 2019 to just 20% in the GE.

    The more you FGers try to minimise his actions in leaking the confidential document to his friend the worse you are making it. People are tired of the spectacle of middle aged man acting like a schoolgirl on Social Media rather than a politician. And it is damaging FG. But by all means, continue to help SF gain in the polls by not dealing with the Varadkar problem yourselves.

    Regards...jmcc

    You're missing my point.

    People have made up their minds about him and the DPP will decide if charges are brought.

    This thread is an echo chamber at this stage and your post shows it.

    You're just having another rant at Leo for the sake of it referring to issues that have nothing to do with the thread title.

    Have a good Monday, I really would find it depressing arguing here all day going over the same ground.

    Enjoy.


  • #8244
    jmcc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,532 ✭✭✭jmcc


    Jinglejangle69 wrote: »
    Most people have made their minds up about him at this stage.
    So what do you think of him and the damage he has inflicted on FG? Still think he is a good leader or did you vote for Coveney as leader in the leadership vote? How many of the other FG supporters here voted for Coveney? And would this kind of a mess have happened under a Coveney leadership?

    Regards...jmcc


  • #8245
    Beechwoodspark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,042 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    Just as a casual observer It’s a bit sinister how the tanaiste has repeated on a number of occasions now that he thinks this will all go away quietly

    A hint of a threat there...

    Surely better to Let the guards and dpp etc do their job. Stay quiet until this is resolved and then make a statement if need be.


  • #8246
    Beechwoodspark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,042 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    Fann Linn wrote: »
    Or one gob****e shouting at two lads out for a walk Paddy.

    This sums it up. It was a rude, mindless stupid comment but unfortunately this happens to people in the public eye a lot

    I saw Marty Morrisey get the dogs abuse (personalised rude comments) from people passing in their cars a few years ago

    It happens :/


  • #8247
    Beechwoodspark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,042 ✭✭✭✭Beechwoodspark


    Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »
    It's not surprising to see the usual suspects either playing down the abuse, or excusing it entirely, implying Varadkar deserves it or brought it on himself.

    It's very revealing to be honest.

    Unfortunately paddy, politicians in the public eye have been on the receiving end of public anger for at least 10-15 years now.

    The public are very angry over a multitude of issues.

    I disagree with much of the manifestations of the anger but it ain’t going away any time soon I fear pintman


  • #8248
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    jmcc wrote: »
    Fascinating how the the FG supporting media are trying to change the narrative from Varadkar being under criminal investigation to Varardkar getting homophobic abuse. The same attempt to distract from Varadkar being under criminal investigation is evident here. The McEntee puff piece appeared in the ironically named "Sunday Independent", didn't it? No doubt this and the Varadkar homophobic abuse will be pushed as talking points for the media today.

    Regards...jmcc

    I dunno. It's a change I suppose.

    While I'd rather be for letting this story die a death (until the police investigation has completed), at least it isn't repeating the same thing repeating the same thing, again and again and again, just because someone wants to ensure they are being heard.


  • #8249
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Deleted User wrote: »
    For someone who's incredibly condescending

    Takes one to know one ;)

    Cutting out the waffle from your reply (I always find the gas-lighting of 'oh you are so irrational' one of the weaker types of argument)
    Deleted User wrote: »
    The NAGP was not engaged in negotiations on terms and conditions of employment, and it had no mandate (via a ballot or otherwise) to do such.


    Please note that 'negotiation' and 'informal chats on how an actual negotiation between a rival trade union and the government would affect its members' are not the same thing. Please also note that 'trade union matters' are not exempted, only communications that form part of or are directly related to negotiations.

    I was actually waiting for someone to bring this up. Much stronger than the 'explain for the 20th time what manner means' position.

    There is a bit of ambiguity here. The communications were definitely in relation to negotiations. Not the NAGP's negotiations, to be sure, but ones that would impact their own members. So really one has to make a judgement about which is more important in the context of the law: the union members who are represented by NAGP in this context, or the negotiators (well Varadkar was a negotiator, but that's not relevant in this context I think).

    The most important thing in relation to this is if a precedent has been set. The reading of the law by courts determines a lot in relation to this, but I'm not sure that something like this has ever been brought before them.

    One of the reason why it may never have gone before them is that a lot of relevant scenarios are already covered by existing corruption legislation. If you can prove corruption, this piss-ant argument concerning lobbying becomes irrelevant.


  • #8250
    Loafing Oaf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,805 ✭✭✭✭Loafing Oaf


    Beechwoodspark wrote: »
    I saw Marty Morrisey get the dogs abuse (personalised rude comments) from people passing in their cars a few years ago

    Was it this guy?

    joe-brolly-dismissed-from-claire-byrne-live-debate-after-cutting-dup-criticism.png

    Shame Claire Byrne wasn't there to mute him...


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  • #8251
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,851 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    It is yourself who is going an entirely semantic examination of this.

    Now while I would normally applaud an interrogation of the sources, I don't find the semantics actually back up your assertions, but more important is that most of this has already been covered earlier in the thread.

    One issue is that from an entirely semantic point of view there is ambiguity in the statement that is impossible to resolve at this distance.

    Technically the quote you use even in this post does not, again, back up your claim. This usually wouldn't be worth pointing out, but you are insisting upon a semantic evaluation. As you would say, a strange hill to die on.

    Technically what he says is that he is sorry for the annoyance and controversy. That is, literally what he says. This means that, from a semantic point of view, he is sorry that the issue has blown up, got national focus, become an issue at all. It quite pointedly avoids providing an apology to the IMO for sharing the information, which makes sense, because to do so would be at odds with him saying that he should always have shared the information with the NAGP.

    It is a legitimate position to say that this is not, in fact, an apology at all (although it of course is, in the classical sense at least): but you can hardly argue that, and the opposite, at the same time. Well, you can do whatever you like I suppose, but it would at least sound distinctly odd, if that's something that concerns you.

    Why not? It has been done many times on here before. We even had individual posts which contradicted themselves in the following sentence.


This discussion has been closed.
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