Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX Read OP For Mod Warnings

OwenM · 23-03-2021 12:21PM

Boggles wrote: »

Telling 'stories' is creative I suppose.

No one is cowering under their bed though are they? That's a figment of your imagination.

It's a metaphor for the fear a lot of people are feeling but I doubt you misunderstood that.

My sister in law felt she had to compulsively clean her phone with antipseptic wipes when a relative handed it to her, same for the shopping. Or when she shouted at her mother in law who was trying to stop her grandchild from falling. Lots of people have irrational fears that are real to them.

gozunda · 23-03-2021 12:30PM

darconio wrote: »

It was of course an exaggeration Tony, but after spending one year in lockdown, more than half of which in full level 5, and they are still telling us that the april surge will collapse the health system, I am not sure what they could implement if not more restrictions. But you either don't have the capacity or more likely the will, to understand any of it.

https://www.thejournal.ie/coronavirus-22-march-5388039-Mar2021/

Of the cases notified today:

258 are men / 262 are women
79% are under 45 years of age
The median age is 28 years old
242 in Dublin, 36 in Meath, 30 in Offaly, 29 in Kildare, 25 in Wicklow and the remaining 158 cases are spread across 20 other counties.

I will ask you again: based on the above numbers when can we start putting in place a plan of "living with covid"?
How many vulnerable live in Ireland? because last time I checked it has the youngest population in Europe, what else are we supposed to do to make sure the non-vulnerable can have a resemblance of normal life? 0 covid isn't it? Sorry, not going to happen, in the meantime they have destroyed the livelihood of an entire nation, many families reached the point of no return and many business will never reopen.

It wasn't exaggeration- it was pure rabble rousing rubbish.

darconio wrote:

...Next step is curfew and martial law.

But moving on

Interesting you should mention that because recent HSE data show that Incidence of infection increased in those aged 5 - 64 years over the last two weeks

The same age group which account for approx 50% of all hospital admissions

No one is suggesting zero covid btw which is the Australian and New Zealand model where borders are fully locked down but there are no or few domestic restrictions.

And again why do we have restrictions? Simply to keep the rate of infection down here. And yes we have a plan for "living with covid" - its called vaccination.

But fek that yeah?

paw patrol · 23-03-2021 12:33PM

Windmill100000 wrote: »

I don't believe for a second the government in any country wants to keep restrictions indefinitely. I don't know anyone personally that believes that either.

Well I do and I'll elaborate cos it's not actually indefinitely in the true sense. . I (and others) mentioned this many times but it's been a while.
They do want to keep restrictions as long as covid is prevalent. there will be no "living with covid" as a normal person would consider that phrase.
This could be years and that has never been denied or clarified.

NPHET have one target - covid. That's it.
The government are sly if the strategy works they will say "aren't we great , we knew NPHET were the best". If it goes tits up they will say " We did our best, why shouldn't we have followed NPHET".
It's a win win. This is the main reason.

On a side note. I see this in banks all the time given my job.
They have a ****ty project . The top lads will know it's hard and there is potential to have egg on their face. So they outsource to somebody - like KPMG. Project goes well and they say "aren't i great I knew it was best to hire KPMG" Project goes sh1t and they say " well KPMG messed up maybe we go with another crowd next time". Either way they are blameless.

So as long as NPHET hold their line on their single issue.
We will have restrictions - just as people have had enough...the new wave is back - the 4th wave...the killer wave to kill us all.:rolleyes:

The only thing(s) that will change this is when back benchers get it in the neck and fear for their seat in large numbers. Or the EU pulls the plug on financing this . They will be the only factors for bringing in change that I can see.

OwenM · 23-03-2021 12:39PM

paw patrol wrote: »

Well I do and I'll elaborate cos it's not actually indefinitely in the true sense. . I (and others) mentioned this many times but it's been a while.
They do want to keep restrictions as long as covid is prevalent. there will be no "living with covid" as a normal person would consider that phrase.
This could be years and that has never been denied or clarified.

NPHET have one target - covid. That's it.
The government are sly if the strategy works they will say "aren't we great , we knew NPHET were the best". If it goes tits up they will say " We did our best, why shouldn't we have followed NPHET".
It's a win win. This is the main reason.

On a side note. I see this in banks all the time given my job.
They have a ****ty project . The top lads will know it's hard and there is potential to have egg on their face. So they outsource to somebody - like KPMG. Project goes well and they say "aren't i great I knew it was best to hire KPMG" Project goes sh1t and they say " well KPMG messed up maybe we go with another crowd next time". Either way they are blameless.

So as long as NPHET hold their line on their single issue.
We will have restrictions - just as people have had enough...the new wave is back - the 4th wave...the killer wave to kill us all.:rolleyes:

The only thing(s) that will change this is when back benchers get it in the neck and fear for their seat in large numbers. Or the EU pulls the plug on financing this . They will be the only factors for bringing in change that I can see.

This is true, if the markets weren't playing ball to finance this cosmic waste of money (PUP) which makes the banking bailouts look like pocket money then the lockdown would never have happened.

Turn the PUP off and try and retain even a level 3 lockdown, Leinster house would be in flames within a week.

Boggles · 23-03-2021 12:43PM

OwenM wrote: »

This is true, if the markets weren't playing ball to finance this cosmic waste of money (PUP) which makes the banking bailouts look like pocket money then the lockdown would never have happened.

Turn the PUP off and try and retain even a level 3 lockdown, Leinster house would be in flames within a week.

Remove financial supports for individuals and businesses and let it play out?

What do you think the most likely scenario would be?

Or have you got that far in your thinking?

gozunda · 23-03-2021 12:44PM

paw patrol wrote: »

Well I do and I'll elaborate cos it's not actually indefinitely in the true sense. . I (and others) mentioned this many times but it's been a while.
They do want to keep restrictions as long as covid is prevalent. there will be no "living with covid" as a normal person would consider that phrase.This could be years and that has never been denied or clarified.

NPHET have one target - covid. That's it.
The government are sly if the strategy works they will say "aren't we great , we knew NPHET were the best". If it goes tits up they will say " We did our best, why shouldn't we have followed NPHET". It's a win win. This is the main reason.

On a side note. I see this in banks all the time given my job.They have a ****ty project . The top lads will know it's hard and there is potential to have egg on their face. So they outsource to somebody - like KPMG. Project goes well and they say "aren't i great I knew it was best to hire KPMG" Project goes sh1t and they say " well KPMG messed up maybe we go with another crowd next time". Either way they are blameless.

So as long as NPHET hold their line on their single issue. We will have restrictions - just as people have had enough...the new wave is back - the 4th wave...the killer wave to kill us all.:rolleyes:

The only thing(s) that will change this is when back benchers get it in the neck and fear for their seat in large numbers. Or the EU pulls the plug on financing this . They will be the only factors for bringing in change that I can see.

So it's s " indefinitely" but not "indefinitely" eh?

As for "living with covid" - yes we already have that. Its called vaccination. And most likley there will be some restrictions until we get the majority of those who need it vaccinated. Then it will join the flu as an annual vaccination to help manage any cases in the community.

The rest is hyperbole and doom mongering imho.

darconio · 23-03-2021 12:46PM

gozunda wrote: »

It wasn't exaggeration- it was pure rabble rousing rubbish.

But moving on

Interesting you should mention that because recent HSE data show that Incidence of infection increased in those aged 5 - 64 years over the last two weeks

The same age group which account for approx 50% of all hospital admissions

No one is suggesting zero covid btw which is the Australian and New Zealand model where borders are fully locked down but there are no or few domestic restrictions.

And again why do we have restrictions? Simply to keep the rate of infection down here. And yes we have a plan for "living with covid" - its called vaccination.

But fek that yeah?

If vaccination meant living with covid we should be already half open by now. Unless you are ok with level 5 until the whole nation is vaccinated?

As of 8am today, 359 Covid-19 patients are hospitalised. A total of 81 of these are in intensive care. There has been 14 additional hospitalisations in the past 24 hours.

Definitely scary numbers :rolleyes: , yeah, but of course according to the majority is thanks to the restrictions if we are in the sunny spot.
Because you can get covid in Penneys but Lidl is safe, the surge is caused by house parties but let's close hospitality completely, schools have windows open during classes to "purify" the air but you can't go for a walk in the beach because you'll get infected.

Graham · 23-03-2021 12:49PM

darconio wrote: »

Because you can get covid in Penneys but Lidl is safe

That's just a silly point. Lidl is open because food is essential.

I'm sure you don't need to be told that.

OwenM · 23-03-2021 12:51PM

Boggles wrote: »

Remove financial supports for individuals and businesses and let it play out?

What do you think the most likely scenario would be?

Or have you got that far in your thinking?

What would the sequence of events look like that would culminate in petrol bombs being thrown? Not interested TBH but one factor would be an exponential increase in emigration to places where they could work. Lots of commentary about tradesmen and contractors having already moved so the construction industry is going to struggle a lot.

titan18 · 23-03-2021 12:53PM

Denmark setting their plan in place for reopening.

https://www.thejournal.ie/denmark-reopening-covid-5389008-Mar2021/

Boggles · 23-03-2021 12:53PM

OwenM wrote: »

What would the sequence of events look like that would culminate in petrol bombs being thrown? Not interested TBH but one factor would be an exponential increase in emigration to places where they could work. Lots of commentary about tradesmen and contractors having already moved so the construction industry is going to struggle a lot.

Oh yeah, so you are basically fantasizing.

Sure give everyone a million euro and a pony.

I have no interest in how that will pan out, doesn't matter, trades people emigration, something, something.

darconio · 23-03-2021 12:57PM

Graham wrote: »

That's just a silly point. Lidl is open because food is essential.

I'm sure you don't need to be told that.

And Penneys is closed because in unsafe to gather inside the store?
Or what's the reason behind the fact that on saturday morning (or any other day) Dunnes is jammed while I can't visit the clothes section in the same store?

Graham · 23-03-2021 12:58PM

titan18 wrote: »

Denmark setting their plan in place for reopening.

https://www.thejournal.ie/denmark-reopening-covid-5389008-Mar2021/

Interesting to note from the BBC News report

"However, much of the reopening plan only applies to people who have a so-called vaccine passport, which shows whether a person has had a jab."

namloc1980 · 23-03-2021 12:59PM

darconio wrote: »

And Penneys is closed because in unsafe to gather inside the store?
Or what's the reason behind the fact that on saturday morning (or any other day) Dunnes is jammed while I can't visit the clothes section in the same store?

What part of food and groceries being essential don't you get?

Whatsisname · 23-03-2021 12:59PM

titan18 wrote: »

Denmark setting their plan in place for reopening.

https://www.thejournal.ie/denmark-reopening-covid-5389008-Mar2021/

Set up as a smartphone application, the “corona passport” certifies that the holder has had a negative test in the last 72 hours, a vaccination or has recently recovered from Covid-19, conferring immunity to the disease.

Paper certificates are also being distributed to vaccinated Danes or those who have tested negative but do not have a smartphone.

Starting on 6 April, the passports will be required for people wanting to go to hairdressers, and for when outdoor service of food and drinks resumes on 21 April.

Ah I remember when covid passports were a conspiracy theory.

Boggles · 23-03-2021 12:59PM

titan18 wrote: »

Denmark setting their plan in place for reopening.

https://www.thejournal.ie/denmark-reopening-covid-5389008-Mar2021/

Vaccine passports to access what they will open.

I can't see that going down well here.

Graham · 23-03-2021 01:00PM

darconio wrote: »

And Penneys is closed because in unsafe to gather inside the store?
Or what's the reason behind the fact that on saturday morning (or any other day) Dunnes is jammed while I can't visit the clothes section in the same store?

non-essential retail is closed to reduce the number of people moving around.

Why the pretence this isn't already well known and understood?

paw patrol · 23-03-2021 01:03PM

gozunda wrote: »

So it's s " indefinitely" but not "indefinitely" eh?

.

if that's your take from my post, that fine.
You want to battle it out whether the dictionary definition is accurate or not?
I'm not normally your guy - but since I'm bored.

indefinitely
/ɪnˈdɛfɪnətli/
Learn to pronounce
adverb
for an unlimited or unspecified period of time.

Definitions from Oxford Languages

unspecified period of time

WTF is this sorcery :pac:
seems accurate to me given our way our nation is wandering aimlessly through this covid mire.
there is no defined end to this
No target or goal. Indefinite.

QED

darconio · 23-03-2021 01:03PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

What part of food and groceries being essential don't you get?

Which part of : can you explain me why non-essential business are closed?
If I am safe shopping for groceries, why suddenly I am in danger shopping for a pair of shoes in the same store in the aisle beside the lettuce?

gozunda · 23-03-2021 01:04PM

darconio wrote: »

If vaccination meant living with covid we should be already half open by now. Unless you are ok with level 5 until the whole nation is vaccinated?

As of 8am today, 359 Covid-19 patients are hospitalised. A total of 81 of these are in intensive care. There has been 14 additional hospitalisations in the past 24 hours.

Definitely scary numbers , yeah, but of course according to the majority is thanks to the restrictions if we are in the sunny spot.
Because you can get covid in Penneys but Lidl is safe, the surge is caused by house parties but let's close hospitality completely, schools have windows open during classes to "purify" the air but you can't go for a walk in the beach because you'll get infected.

No we wouldn't.

Currently we have approx half a million of those deemed vulnerable vaccinated with one jab only. A smaller percentage with both and a significant cohort of older people and those who are younger but medically vulnerable yet to receive their first shot.

Even the UK who are way ahead of us in the number of vaccinations haven't "half" opened up as of yet.

And its not just todays hospital numbers which determine if we immediately throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Figures of new cases need to show a consistent and downward trend over time

Vaccination needs to continue to be rolled out until we get the majority who need it - vaccinated.

And yes restrictions will be rolled back as these metrics improve.

Its not rocket science

I see more of the old hyperbole again
I borrowed this :rolleyes: btw - I think it looks better here.

Graham · 23-03-2021 01:04PM

darconio wrote: »

Which part of : can you explain me why non-essential business are closed?

To reduce the number of people moving around.

Already answered.

darconio · 23-03-2021 01:05PM

Graham wrote: »

non-essential retail is closed to reduce the number of people moving around.

Why the pretence this isn't already well known and understood?

You are still failing to answer my question:

What's the reason behind the fact that on saturday morning (or any other day) Dunnes is jammed while I can't visit the clothes section in the same store?

23-03-2021 01:07PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

What part of food and groceries being essential don't you get?

The bit where we couldn't buy toys in Tesco for all the months that schools were closed, but if browsing Yankee candles and throw cushions is your thing you can fill your ****ing boots?

Pure theatre.

Allinall · 23-03-2021 01:08PM

darconio wrote: »

You are still failing to answer my question:

What's the reason behind the fact that on saturday morning (or any other day) Dunnes is jammed while I can't visit the clothes section in the same store?

It's because clothes are deemed non essential.

If the grocery section is "jammed" ( which I doubt), then that's on Dunnes to put in more controls on the numbers.

Nowhere should be jammed.

titan18 · 23-03-2021 01:11PM

Graham wrote: »

Interesting to note from the BBC News report

"However, much of the reopening plan only applies to people who have a so-called vaccine passport, which shows whether a person has had a jab."

I've read here https://www.livemint.com/news/world/denmark-announces-reopening-once-all-over-50s-vaccinated-11616497820238.html

that Set up as a smartphone application, the "corona passport" certifies that the holder has had a negative test in the last 72 hours, a vaccination or has recently recovered from Covid-19, conferring immunity to the disease.

So, it'll likely cover a load of people and if you wanted to, could get a test done and then do things for a few days.

darconio · 23-03-2021 01:12PM

gozunda wrote: »

And its not just todays hospital numbers which determine if we immediately throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Funny you mention that because they didn't think twice about reverting the already ridiculous relaxation of restrictions during xmas to level 5 when the numbers rose, but the other way around of course doesn't work

titan18 · 23-03-2021 01:13PM

Boggles wrote: »

Vaccine passports to access what they will open.

I can't see that going down well here.

Would people rather things reopening but need proof of vaccination or a negative test to use it, or things just not reopening.

Cos we're doing the latter, I'd definitely prefer the former. You could get a test on a Thursday once a month and get a haircut, head to a restaurant etc and have fun over the weekend.

Windmill100000 · 23-03-2021 01:16PM

Allinall wrote: »

It's because clothes are deemed non essential.

If the grocery section is "jammed" ( which I doubt), then that's on Dunnes to put in more controls on the numbers.

Nowhere should be jammed.

True. Was at Dunnes at the weekend. First time in a long time they were monitoring one in, one out. Wasnt jammed by any stretch but it was clearly a busy time and being appropriately monitored.

ArthurDayne · 23-03-2021 01:17PM

Windmill100000 wrote: »

I really don't see many places willing to defy restrictions and open up now. There was talk about it on here after the beautician in Dublin opened, but that resulted in nothing.

People have done a lot to keep numbers down and I think most people are prepared to keep doing so. I am not seeing anything to show that people will change now as hospital numbers reduce and people get vaccinated.

Of course I 100% could be wrong, this is just my opinion, but I personally don't see anything happening while the situation is improving.

Really can’t say I agree with this. Both my parents and one living grandparent (all in the North) have been vaccinated and it has certainly made them more relaxed and indeed has made me more relaxed in going to see them — not quite physical contact but certainly more relaxed. They have all received the first dose Pfizer vaccine and the data is showing a very good level of protection some 2-3 weeks after getting it.

People do not abide by laws more so than they abide by risk. That takes two forms: (i) the risk which the law is designed to prevent and (ii) the risk of prosecution or hindrance by authorities for breaking a law. Even with first dose vaccines, people will deem that the risk which the restrictions are designed to prevent has been lessened in terms of seeing family etc, which will make them less inclined to comply. It then becomes a question of whether the authorities will try to ramp up policing and enforcement — which might be very difficult.

Obviously I can’t say for sure, but I think it seem dubious to conclude that the level of compliance will not correlate to a descending level of risk.

gozunda · 23-03-2021 01:18PM

darconio wrote: »

Funny you mention that because they didn't think twice about reverting the already ridiculous relaxation of restrictions during xmas to level 5 when the numbers rose, but the other way around of course doesn't work

Is it funny?

The figures you gave were from a single day. Planning for covid both here and elsewhere is not based on just one days data set.

Are you're saying restrictions were never lowered last year?

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part IX Read OP For Mod Warnings