What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

Pete_Cavan · 18-03-2021 07:45AM

dogbert27 wrote: »

The UK now facing the same issue as the EU with Astra Zeneca

UK: There is a shortage due to production issues

Astra Zeneca: No issues here!

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9373987/UK-vaccine-rollout-hit-need-retest-batches.html

From that article;

But in an intervention that triggered confusion, AstraZeneca refuted the claims and insisted last night that its UK supply chain was not experiencing disruption.

A spokesman said: 'Our UK domestic supply chain is not experiencing any disruption and there is no impact on our delivery schedule.'

...

News of the shortage came as Brussels issued a string of extraordinary threats to grab 'Europe's fair share' of vaccines from Britain.

Whitehall sources were adamant, however, that any disruption to the UK's supply had nothing to do with the EU row. 'We are not giving supplies away and AstraZeneca are not redirecting our supplies to the continent,' the source said.

If all the above is true, it must be doses coming from the EU that is causing the problem in the UK. It can all be true of course, their domestic supplies are not experiencing any disruption, they are likely just a smaller part of their vaccine than they led people to believe. The EU may be trying to grab it's fair share' of vaccines from Britain but they are EU produced doses, not UK produced doses being redirected.

AZ certainly seem to have been prioritising the UK over the EU but not releasing UK produced doses to the EU doesn't seem to be the issue as first thought. AZ seem to just not have bothered getting approval for an EU production site, leaving the EU short, and sending doses to the UK (and probably elsewhere too). If they can no longer do that, it explains the shortfall for the UK while their domestic production not having issues.

dogbert27 · 18-03-2021 07:54AM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

From that article;

If all the above is true, it must be doses coming from the EU that is causing the problem in the UK. It can all be true of course, their domestic supplies are not experiencing any disruption, they are likely just a smaller part of their vaccine than they led people to believe. The EU may be trying to grab it's fair share' of vaccines from Britain but they are EU produced doses, not UK produced doses being redirected.

AZ certainly seem to have been prioritising the UK over the EU but not releasing UK produced doses to the EU doesn't seem to be the issue as first thought. AZ seem to just not have bothered getting approval for an EU production site, leaving the EU short, and sending doses to the UK (and probably elsewhere too). If they can no longer do that, it explains the shortfall for the UK while their domestic production not having issues.

Exactly, the article says they were expecting 10 mill from India but have only received 5 mill to date.

And it was over sold too by the UK government about a British produced vaccine when they are receiving the majority of batches from sites in Europe, India and the US.

OscarMIlde · 18-03-2021 08:17AM

Stark wrote: »

Bit more colour on the blood clotting thing https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2021/03/it-s-very-special-picture-why-vaccine-safety-experts-put-brakes-astrazeneca-s-covid-19

Well, that makes sense. Clotting is an immune reaction, and I suppose anything that activates a massive immune response, might result in side effects in some unlucky individuals. It's a difficult thing to call for doctors, as it is a hard thing to see people die/become seriously ill, and to worry whether it was due to a vaccine. On the other hand covid 19 itself undoubtedly has severe vascular effects, so from a population level continuing vaccinations is the logical call.

I presume they are going to investigate these deaths/illnesses and see whether there were latent underlying issues such as MPNs that may have triggered these events.

Pete_Cavan · 18-03-2021 09:00AM

dogbert27 wrote: »

Exactly, the article says they were expecting 10 mill from India but have only received 5 mill to date.

And it was over sold too by the UK government about a British produced vaccine when they are receiving the majority of batches from sites in Europe, India and the US.

I'd love to know how they got 5m doses from SII already given they were only auditing it last month (and article says SII producing for poor and middle-income countries but not the UK) and the supply from SII was only announced two weeks ago.

They can't seriously have expected to get 10m doses that quick. Even 5m doses within two weeks is fast. Presumably any SII doses the UK has received have been redirected from elsewhere as there wouldn't have been a stock sitting there given the demand for the vaccine and existing customers getting reduced deliveries. Its one thing having UK produced doses kept for the UK but it seems the UK are getting preferential treatment for doses produced everywhere (except USA who wont let it leave the country despite not yet using it).

Tippbhoy1 · 18-03-2021 09:08AM

dogbert27 wrote: »

Exactly, the article says they were expecting 10 mill from India but have only received 5 mill to date.

And it was over sold too by the UK government about a British produced vaccine when they are receiving the majority of batches from sites in Europe, India and the US.

Looks like the uk were never as self sufficient with AZ as the politicians spun it now we are getting to see the numbers. I’m surprised that AZ have broken ranks and made a statement that partially contradicts the government, or at the very least raises more questions to the public, considering up to now they’ve been hand in glove with the government in all the “communications”. Throw in that Pfizer is doing as much as AZ for the uk rollout and you’d wonder have they big issues with volume in the uk factories.

They would have had a nice stockpile at the start based on some advanced production and all the EU based initial supplies, which presumably is all gone now. The Indian order was a later top up and with both the EU and potentially India putting the squeeze on now, it wouldn’t be a surprise if they have ended up in a really precarious position with people needing a second jab now and supply being less than it was during the initial phase.

A lot of things don’t add up still, but that’s not a surprise. Uk also haven’t had a vial of Moderna yet and my sense is they’ll be behind the Eu on J&J too. Eu will be ahead in the pecking order for Curevac too. Novavax is coming on stream however with a local production.

It’s plausible the UK pace will align closer to EU pace from now on, and possibly behind it. If the EU shut down Pfizer the UK are in big big trouble. Might be time for Boris to throw AZ to the wolves and work out a compromise with the EU so that everyone can save a bit of face.

is_that_so · 18-03-2021 09:13AM

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

Looks like the uk were never as self sufficient with AZ as the politicians spun it now we are getting to see the numbers. I’m surprised that AZ have broken ranks and made a statement that partially contradicts the government, or at the very least raises more questions to the public, considering up to now they’ve been hand in glove with the government in all the “communications”. Throw in that Pfizer is doing as much as AZ for the uk rollout and you’d wonder have they big issues with volume in the uk factories.

They would have had a nice stockpile at the start based on some advanced production and all the EU based initial supplies, which presumably is all gone now. The Indian order was a later top up and with both the EU and potentially India putting the squeeze on now, it wouldn’t be a surprise if they have ended up in a really precarious position with people needing a second jab now and supply being less than it was during the initial phase.

A lot of things don’t add up still, but that’s not a surprise. Uk also haven’t had a vial of Moderna yet and my sense is they’ll be behind the Eu on J&J too. Eu will be ahead in the pecking order for Curevac too. Novavax is coming on stream however with a local production.

It’s plausible the UK pace will align closer to EU pace from now on, and possibly behind it. If the EU shut down Pfizer the UK are in big big trouble. Might be time for Boris to throw AZ to the wolves and work out a compromise with the EU so that everyone can save a bit of face.

I don't think they will. Pfizer have been stars of the class and now are upping their game again, without compromising existing contracts. The ire is with AZ, who just go from bad to worse. They may well be the vaccine for most of the world but could end up being one the EU would rather do without.

Pete_Cavan · 18-03-2021 09:27AM

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

Throw in that Pfizer is doing as much as AZ for the uk rollout and you’d wonder have they big issues with volume in the uk factories.

Are Pfizer producing Covid vaccines in the UK? I thought it was all coming from Germany.

Tippbhoy1 · 18-03-2021 09:28AM

is_that_so wrote: »

I don't think they will. Pfizer have been stars of the class and now are upping their game again, without compromising existing contracts. The ire is with AZ, who just go from bad to worse. They may well be the vaccine for most of the world but could end up being one the EU would rather do without.

I would agree and also think it’s unlikely. Leaving aside the political divisions, millions of people need a second jab of Pfizer or it could potentially all have been a waste. Even if the UK wanted to, I don’t think there are any AZ supplies of volume to give to the EU at this point and I don’t think the EU even want them at this stage. Maybe the EU will use the Pfizer leverage on Boris to forego a shipment of one of the other vaccines and reroute that to the EU to make up for the stocks that the Uk benefitted from back in Jan.

Tippbhoy1 · 18-03-2021 09:30AM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Are Pfizer producing Covid vaccines in the UK? I thought it was all coming from Germany.

No they’re not. My point being Eu made Pfizer is doing as much of the lifting in the UK as AZ.

Pete_Cavan · 18-03-2021 09:34AM

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

No they’re not. My point being Eu made Pfizer is doing as much of the lifting in the UK as AZ.

Yes, I was just clarifying as I read "have they big issues with volume in the UK factories" in your post to refer to Pfizer, but you were actually talking about AZ.

Pete_Cavan · 18-03-2021 09:48AM

This article was linked in another thread;

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56438629

A spokesperson for the Serum Institute said: "Five million doses had been delivered a few weeks ago to the UK and we will try to supply more later, based on the current situation and the requirement for the government immunisation programme in India."

That suggests that doses were sent from India to UK while the audit of SII was ongoing. Seems the UK were able to get SII doses ahead of others before they had even approved it. The quote also says that further deliveries to the UK are dependent of India's vaccination programme which suggests no super duper contract clauses and no dedicated production which presumably means others missed out so the UK could get the first 5m. Presumably the UK didn't fund SII set up so not sure why they can get doses from there so fast.

Giving the timing, I wonder are SII doses being used to replace what was coming from Halix in the Netherlands? The initial 5m has held them over so far but without the next 5m and presumably little from Halix, their supply drops off soon. AZ say that their domestic UK production has no issues and this is probably true, its just that it is nowhere near as efficient as previously suggested.

robinph · 18-03-2021 10:43AM

Danish article which suggests that the cause of blood clotting could be down to the injection method used, and age of the person being vaccinated, which then causes the response:

https://www.berlingske.dk/nyheder/dansk-professor-forkert-vaccineteknik-kan-udloese-blodpropper

Basically, the skin should be stretched so that the injection goes deep enough into the muscles, not pinched which can in rare circumstances mean the injection goes into the blood vessels instead. Then in combination with a younger person and a strong immune response that triggers the clotting issues.

Stark · 18-03-2021 10:47AM

Might have to avoid showing that to my belonephobia friends

^^

sporina · 18-03-2021 12:16PM

those who got blood clots - where they all vaccinated in the same place?

18-03-2021 12:43PM

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

No they’re not. My point being Eu made Pfizer is doing as much of the lifting in the UK as AZ.

Don't you mean Pfizer made Pfizer? I'm pretty sure the EU don't make vaccines.

robinph · 18-03-2021 12:47PM

sporina wrote: »

those who got blood clots - where they all vaccinated in the same place?

At least a couple of them were staff in the same hospital in Norway.

brickster69 · 18-03-2021 12:52PM

Aegir wrote: »

Don't you mean Pfizer made Pfizer? I'm pretty sure the EU don't make vaccines.

Exactly, and UK took the risk and ordered first regardless if they were approved or not.

Pete_Cavan · 18-03-2021 12:54PM

Aegir wrote: »

Don't you mean Pfizer made Pfizer? I'm pretty sure the EU don't make vaccines.

The vaccine was actually developed by BioNTech, a German company, with substantial EU funding who then partnered with Pfizer for the mass production of their vaccine (again with EU funding). Quite similar to Oxford developing a vaccine and then partnering with AZ to mass produce but it seems alright for this to be considered a British vaccine because of funding from the government there. The EU hasn't claimed it as an EU vaccine and has facilitated its export to many countries.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 18-03-2021 01:12PM

brickster69 wrote: »

Exactly, and UK took the risk and ordered first regardless if they were approved or not.

One would think that if that mattered the EU order g first from Astra Zenaca would have meant that Astra Zenaca don't feel its OK to ignore EU orders and delivery schedules.

18-03-2021 01:21PM

robinph wrote: »

Danish article which suggests that the cause of blood clotting could be down to the injection method used, and age of the person being vaccinated, which then causes the response:

https://www.berlingske.dk/nyheder/dansk-professor-forkert-vaccineteknik-kan-udloese-blodpropper

Basically, the skin should be stretched so that the injection goes deep enough into the muscles, not pinched which can in rare circumstances mean the injection goes into the blood vessels instead. Then in combination with a younger person and a strong immune response that triggers the clotting issues.

Thanks for this. Very informative.

And while google translate is way better than it used to be it still throws up some interesting translations

“I was completely shocked to say the least. I thought no one would believe this, "says Nanna Wulff, who is a dentist herself and therefore has experience in stabbing her patients.

Tippbhoy1 · 18-03-2021 01:28PM

Aegir wrote: »

Don't you mean Pfizer made Pfizer? I'm pretty sure the EU don't make vaccines.

Excellent contribution again, well done.

18-03-2021 01:42PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The vaccine was actually developed by BioNTech, a German company, with substantial EU funding who then partnered with Pfizer for the mass production of their vaccine (again with EU funding). Quite similar to Oxford developing a vaccine and then partnering with AZ to mass produce but it seems alright for this to be considered a British vaccine because of funding from the government there. The EU hasn't claimed it as an EU vaccine and has facilitated its export to many countries.

that is nothing more than your opinion.

18-03-2021 01:44PM

Aegir wrote: »

that is nothing more than your opinion.

You seem to have mixed up the words opinion and fact

Pete_Cavan · 18-03-2021 01:52PM

Aegir wrote: »

that is nothing more than your opinion.

Do you not agree that BioNTech is a German company?

https://biontech.de/our-dna/locations

Do you not agree that the EU funded them?

https://ec.europa.eu/info/research-and-innovation/research-area/health-research-and-innovation/coronavirus-research-and-innovation/financing-innovation_en

EUR 30 million to BioNTech (complemented by an additional support of EUR 70 million by EFSI)

Melanchthon · 18-03-2021 01:58PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The vaccine was actually developed by BioNTech, a German company, with substantial EU funding who then partnered with Pfizer for the mass production of their vaccine (again with EU funding). Quite similar to Oxford developing a vaccine and then partnering with AZ to mass produce but it seems alright for this to be considered a British vaccine because of funding from the government there. The EU hasn't claimed it as an EU vaccine and has facilitated its export to many countries.

Not confrontational but it's a bit different to the Oxford vaccine as I think you have the sequence of events wrong.
BioNTech already had a partnership with Pfizer for research and development of vaccines before Covid-19 was a thing.

The Oxford -Astra Zeneca partnership was different hence why there was talk of them partnering with companies like Merk and Oxford was able to get them to produce the vaccine at cost price but there was never any question that it would be a Pfizer vaccine because Pfizer was already involved in the R n D.

Pete_Cavan · 18-03-2021 02:12PM

Melanchthon wrote: »

Not confrontational but it's a bit different to the Oxford vaccine as I think you have the sequence of events wrong.
BioNTech already had a partnership with Pfizer for research and development of vaccines before Covid-19 was a thing.

The Oxford -Astra Zeneca partnership was different hence why there was talk of them partnering with companies like Merk and Oxford was able to get them to produce the vaccine at cost price but there was never any question that it would be a Pfizer vaccine because Pfizer was already involved in the R n D.

Well Oxford weren't allowed to sign a contract with Merck having negotiating one because it didn't include provisions specifically committing to supply the UK first. There is no suggestion that there was to be exclusivity in the Merck deal, presumably Oxford wouldn't have negotiated on that basis as they stated that they wouldn't give exclusivity. Instead they ended up signing with AZ and no one else with the main criteria not being ability to produce but rather willingness to prioritise the UK.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-rejected-contracts-and-a-hollywood-movie-how-uk-struck-deal-to-guarantee-vaccine-supply-12204044

On the other hand, BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine is being produced by other companies to increase the roll out of it and are supplying the most countries and is the most-used COVID-19 vaccine in the world

18-03-2021 02:16PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Do you not agree that BioNTech is a German company?

https://biontech.de/our-dna/locations

Do you not agree that the EU funded them?

https://ec.europa.eu/info/research-and-innovation/research-area/health-research-and-innovation/coronavirus-research-and-innovation/financing-innovation_en

A German company owned by two Turkish immigrants developed it (with support from the European investment bank and the UK) and it is produced by an American company.

it isn't an EU vaccine any more than the Oxford/Astra Zeneca (developed by an Irish woman at a UK university and funded by the UK and EU) vaccine is a British vaccine, despite what you may think.

Strazdas · 18-03-2021 02:20PM

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

Looks like the uk were never as self sufficient with AZ as the politicians spun it now we are getting to see the numbers. I’m surprised that AZ have broken ranks and made a statement that partially contradicts the government, or at the very least raises more questions to the public, considering up to now they’ve been hand in glove with the government in all the “communications”. Throw in that Pfizer is doing as much as AZ for the uk rollout and you’d wonder have they big issues with volume in the uk factories.

They would have had a nice stockpile at the start based on some advanced production and all the EU based initial supplies, which presumably is all gone now. The Indian order was a later top up and with both the EU and potentially India putting the squeeze on now, it wouldn’t be a surprise if they have ended up in a really precarious position with people needing a second jab now and supply being less than it was during the initial phase.

A lot of things don’t add up still, but that’s not a surprise. Uk also haven’t had a vial of Moderna yet and my sense is they’ll be behind the Eu on J&J too. Eu will be ahead in the pecking order for Curevac too. Novavax is coming on stream however with a local production.

It’s plausible the UK pace will align closer to EU pace from now on, and possibly behind it. If the EU shut down Pfizer the UK are in big big trouble. Might be time for Boris to throw AZ to the wolves and work out a compromise with the EU so that everyone can save a bit of face.

I would imagine the British public are a bit startled to be reading that the UK has been importing so many of its vaccine doses, including that of AZ. Have the words 'India' and 'AstraZeneca' been mentioned in the same sentence before now?

It does look like the fast UK vaccine rollout is about to slow down. Probably a touch of inevitability about it.

18-03-2021 02:21PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

Well Oxford weren't allowed to sign a contract with Merck having negotiating one because it didn't include provisions specifically committing to supply the UK first. There is no suggestion that there was to be exclusivity in the Merck deal, presumably Oxford wouldn't have negotiated on that basis as they stated that they wouldn't give exclusivity. Instead they ended up signing with AZ and no one else with the main criteria not being ability to produce but rather willingness to prioritise the UK.

https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-rejected-contracts-and-a-hollywood-movie-how-uk-struck-deal-to-guarantee-vaccine-supply-12204044

On the other hand, BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine is being produced by other companies to increase the roll out of it and are supplying the most countries and is the most-used COVID-19 vaccine in the world

If they had signed with Merck, the US could be sitting on even more vaccines than they are now.

robinph · 18-03-2021 02:25PM

Strazdas wrote: »

Have the words 'India' and 'AstraZeneca' been mentioned in the same sentence before now?

Yes.

BBC News - Covax vaccine-sharing scheme delivers first doses to Ghana
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-56180161

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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