Why'd you have to go and make things so complicated?

demfad · 11-03-2021 01:24PM

Enduro wrote: »

Which potentially loops back in the original point of the thread, in that logging in and of itself is to my mind an over-complication.

Note: when Enduro is not balancing on one leg in tree pose on top of the cross on Carrauntoohil after an 8 hour mountain run, he is using real-time mental calculus to work out gap closing rates during 24hr track races.

'The problem with the logging forum is that its full of logs' says Enduro Longshanks. Don't take what this man says with a pinch full of salt, take it with an artic flytipped amount of salt!

You're right Enduro there hasn't been a bust up here in yonks. :mad: Let's have at it!! :pac:

demfad · 11-03-2021 03:21PM

Just to address the Original Post.

I have been guilty myself of the chopping and changing particularly as I was largely looking after my own training schedules. I remember problem can become more acute when fatigued, as doubt creeps in. It is worth either sticking hard to an exact schedule unless there is a rock solid reason to change. If you miss a session, it disappears, move on. Or else (better) have a coach or someone looking over your shoulder.

The struggles with the internet and information are a global problem straddling all walks of life. There is fantastic information available to ordinary folk that wasn't there before. The problems are firstly a 'separate the wheat from the chaff' one with the information and secondly how can the old (coaching) systems be enhanced (or replaced).

The old way was that the coach had the expertize and the coaching manual --you listened to the coach/expert and you followed the instruction.

Now we haven't just nicked the coaches manual, we have every manual ever written and 100 times more pretend manuals. What's worse is that all these manuals look similar on the screen and we can't decide which is best...

In coaching terms, coaches now need an online relationship coaching relationship with their athletes as much as offline in order not to lose them.
Coaches also need to update the coaching manuals and expertise to retain the confidence of runners. I'm not dwelling on the rights or wrongs of this: that's the way it is now.

In terms of this forum, all we can do is contextualize the information and help people understand what is wheat and what is chaff by reinforcing the wheat with our own experience and how we've learned from our mistakes.

I do not buy this 98%/2% argument too much either. Surely a HRM belongs to the 98% a lot more than fast runners for speed sessions do?

We can lament how things were in simpler times. Sure the person must put the training in: but if they want to do it using modern coaching methods or tech, that should surely improve things once the chaff is taken out?

pansophelia · 11-03-2021 11:08PM

I've really enjoyed reading this thread and it's given me a lot of food for thought. I started lurking on this forum almost ten years ago when I started running. I've lurked on and off since. I contributed a bit initially, and even had a short-lived log, but had injury, minor illness, loss of motivation, and stopped posting - partly due to frustration that I wasn't making much progress with my running - well aside from the fact that I absolutely love it .

So since I've been here on an off for a while, I have noticed a few things. This majority of the time, this forum is a friendly and supportive place. The Novice thread is remarkable, mostly due to the huge effort posters put in year after year to support people who are in the main beginners to running.

I really enjoy reading running magazines, books, listening to podcasts but this forum has made the biggest contribution to my knowledge and understanding of running. This is more through reading other people's questions rather than starting my own, and I often search back to see previous threads which are full of useful discussion.

To answer the first post, if you are a true beginner to running, and especially if you are a beginner to sport in general, it is a bit complicated! I trained for the mini marathon in my early 20s and loved it, but gave up running a few weeks after, as I couldn't seem to keep running - I was running every run like a race. This was pre-boards time, and I had absolutely no idea about how to start running. I didn't understand about pacing, long runs, speed workouts. I wouldn't have understood what an easy run was. Like I've seen other beginners here say, I thought 'if only I could get my breathing sorted I'd be fine!' So telling beginners to just get out and run, and run easy sometimes doesn't work as they won't necessarily know what that means (I've told people this too btw). That's why the Novice thread is so successful, there's a real hunger for direction. And running clubs aren't for everyone - I had a super experience with a club in London, but have felt too slow to join the Dublin clubs nearest to me.

So when I started running again seven years later, I had to learn all of this stuff. And tbh I'm still learning. A lot of the learning came from here. Understanding why my running might be falling off a cliff (iron deficiency), why my knees were suddenly causing me trouble (ITB, lack of strength), the reason some weeks were so much tougher than others (periods), why I was struggling with motivation at times (not enough truly easy running).

I think it's normal not to notice a new beginner log until someone is posting for a while. It's really rare for someone to post a question in the main forum that goes unanswered. The logs I follow in Training tend to be more women, great to see so many posting now, or someone who might be following a similar training plan to my own. I think I haven't posted more because I'm slow, and haven't made the gains over the years I've seen other people make.
But this thread has prompted me to make a bit more of an effort. So thanks to everyone here who has been contributing to this forum over the years - ye've been great.

Enduro · 11-03-2021 11:27PM

demfad wrote: »

You're right Enduro there hasn't been a bust up here in yonks. :mad: Let's have at it!! :pac:

I'll tell ya something.... If I was in true Monty Python style wanting an argument, you'd be right up there in the font ranks of people to Have at it

(on boards anyway.... )

Funnily enough, you were one of the people I was thinking of when I was talking about the minority who thrive on complexity.

robinph · 12-03-2021 09:19AM

pansophelia wrote: »

To answer the first post, if you are a true beginner to running, and especially if you are a beginner to sport in general, it is a bit complicated! I trained for the mini marathon in my early 20s and loved it, but gave up running a few weeks after, as I couldn't seem to keep running - I was running every run like a race. This was pre-boards time, and I had absolutely no idea about how to start running. I didn't understand about pacing, long runs, speed workouts. I wouldn't have understood what an easy run was. Like I've seen other beginners here say, I thought 'if only I could get my breathing sorted I'd be fine!' So telling beginners to just get out and run, and run easy sometimes doesn't work as they won't necessarily know what that means (I've told people this too btw). That's why the Novice thread is so successful, there's a real hunger for direction. And running clubs aren't for everyone - I had a super experience with a club in London, but have felt too slow to join the Dublin clubs nearest to me.

So when I started running again seven years later, I had to learn all of this stuff. And tbh I'm still learning. A lot of the learning came from here. Understanding why my running might be falling off a cliff (iron deficiency), why my knees were suddenly causing me trouble (ITB, lack of strength), the reason some weeks were so much tougher than others (periods), why I was struggling with motivation at times (not enough truly easy running).

It's a long time since my being a beginner runner days, and even at the points where I returned to running I either somehow already knew, or was too lazy, to ever think that running hard in training was something I needed to do. My training has always been about just plodding round.

I can totally see why newcomers would be thinking that running is meant to be hard though, you see people exhausted at the end end of a marathon on the telly, collapsed on the floor, advertising shows people dripping in sweat and looking like they are in pain but then we're told that it feels good despite the pained looks. General phrases in conversation with non runners might include lines about how they would die if they had to run for the bus and how its a generally unpleasant thing to do. Only really adverts showing people running through mountains and looking at sunny vistas would show running as a non-painful pursuit, otherwise it is all about the pain and buckets of sweat, never just enjoying the activity.

So, how do we convince a new runner to just do it for fun, not to try and destroy themselves on every run, don't worry about heart rate or cadence and just run, or walk but mostly just move at a comfortable pace? I hear lots of people raving about the likes of couch 2 5km apps, but never having used one, are they approaching things from a different perspective and making it more about just maintaining forward momentum and ignoring the pace?

What would have convinced relatively the new runners here to take things simpler early on? How can the perception of what running is be changed for those joining for the first time?

peter kern · 12-03-2021 09:53AM

at the end of the day a lot of the complication is driven from the top t0 bottom ie pretty much every new gadgeds etc is usually given to the fastest guys first , project 2 for instance then top amateurs adopt the shoes then amateur and then beginners
same with hr monitors garmins they when not used by beginners yet there is very little evidence that they are better than training with perceived effort scales.
so the reason beginners have this overfloat of information is not so much a beginner issue its a sport issue .
now sub 2 project just happened to be the first time in 4 decades or so that a promoted game changer shoe ... actually is a real improvement at the same time for each new invention that makes a real improvement you have 100 products that dont .
so the main issue for runners is to filter what works in general and what works for me. for everything there is responders and non responders.
the thing is if the somewhat more experience athlete cant work it out how is the beginner supposed to work it out who sees all this people using this and that and talking about this and that .
which is why i pointed out to zico using shoes for 189 euro when he could have used doc martins , is hardly showing to beginner to keep it simple, as they are likely to think if he waers 189 euro shoes than maybe i have to wear them too. if he uses a garmin for every single run maybe i should too. of course they should see first that he runs a lot but this is where the marketing industy plays a good game . its not easy to make money of selliing consistency they have to promote other things most of the time the fluff.
so i would say the problem is much more driven from top to bottom than from bottom to top .

Kander · 12-03-2021 12:25PM

peter kern wrote: »

which is why i pointed out to zico using shoes for 189 euro when he could have used doc martins , is hardly showing to beginner to keep it simple, as they are likely to think if he waers 189 euro shoes than maybe i have to wear them too. if he uses a garmin for every single run maybe i should too. of course they should see first that he runs a lot but this is where the marketing industy plays a good game .

And the "What shoes you wearing now and what next?" thread :P. It's not a hard sell for most of us here

pansophelia · 12-03-2021 09:19PM

robinph wrote: »

So, how do we convince a new runner to just do it for fun, not to try and destroy themselves on every run, don't worry about heart rate or cadence and just run, or walk but mostly just move at a comfortable pace? I hear lots of people raving about the likes of couch 2 5km apps, but never having used one, are they approaching things from a different perspective and making it more about just maintaining forward momentum and ignoring the pace?

What would have convinced relatively the new runners here to take things simpler early on? How can the perception of what running is be changed for those joining for the first time?

I think that's a great question. Part of the issue is I suppose, that not all beginners are created equal. Some beginners have a background in sport, have spent years doing GAA, soccer, cycling, swimming etc, so even if they've never done much running, they have a good aerobic fitness and have some idea about the principles of training. They could probably head straight out the door and do a couple of miles on their first ever time running. Heard Sophie Power, a UK ultra runner on a podcast lately, she signed up for Comrades and completed it having only ever run a couple of miles - but she had taken up team sport in university and had done a lot of multi-day hikes.

Other people (like me) had absolutely no sport background - little to no organised team sports, a few games of Unihoc during PE as a teenager, occasional gym sessions in my 20s - so when I started running I could only do a couple of minutes at a time and was delighted when I managed my first mile. I can't really remember but think I might have used one of the Couch to 5k apps, but think I was nearly running 5k by the time I found it. They are good in that they progress slowly and encourage lots of walking. I think this is why some beginner running programmes like Forget the Gym do so well - supportive environments and advice for people who really need to learn how to start off in a way that will make sure they keep going.
The odd running club seems to cater for this group as well, but less common. I have a LOT of trouble persuading my female friends that running is a fun thing to do. This group are much more vulnerable to drop off (in my opinion) and it wouldn't take much to knock their confidence in the sport. I've been trail running with She Summits a few times and they are a very supportive group to beginners and intermediates.

The novice thread had a great pro forma they got newbies to fill out so they could get an idea of background and goals with questions like - 'Do you still take walk breaks when you run?' and 'Have you ever done a race' - this probably allows for much more nuanced advice.

I wonder should we have a 'New to Running' Sticky at the beginning of the forum for beginners to pop questions into a more specific thread?
Edited to Add: Just spotted RayCun's at the top of the page which has some links - didn't realise we had a Couch to 5K thread!

pansophelia · 12-03-2021 09:27PM

peter kern wrote: »

at the end of the day a lot of the complication is driven from the top t0 bottom ie pretty much every new gadgeds etc is usually given to the fastest guys first , project 2 for instance then top amateurs adopt the shoes then amateur and then beginners
same with hr monitors garmins they when not used by beginners yet there is very little evidence that they are better than training with perceived effort scales.
so the reason beginners have this overfloat of information is not so much a beginner issue its a sport issue .
now sub 2 project just happened to be the first time in 4 decades or so that a promoted game changer shoe ... actually is a real improvement at the same time for each new invention that makes a real improvement you have 100 products that dont .
so the main issue for runners is to filter what works in general and what works for me. for everything there is responders and non responders.
the thing is if the somewhat more experience athlete cant work it out how is the beginner supposed to work it out who sees all this people using this and that and talking about this and that .
which is why i pointed out to zico using shoes for 189 euro when he could have used doc martins , is hardly showing to beginner to keep it simple, as they are likely to think if he waers 189 euro shoes than maybe i have to wear them too. if he uses a garmin for every single run maybe i should too. of course they should see first that he runs a lot but this is where the marketing industy plays a good game . its not easy to make money of selliing consistency they have to promote other things most of the time the fluff.
so i would say the problem is much more driven from top to bottom than from bottom to top .

So true - the marketing can be really distracting. Instagram might be making it worse. I think most of my early gear was from Penneys, apart from the sports bra and the runners, and I ran my first Dublin marathon with a ten euro stopwatch from Argos - I wouldn't dream of doing that now.
It's an issue too as even though running is potentially a really cheap sport, it isn't as diverse as you'd hope, and I wonder are the runners and the gear and the gadgets contributing to that?

robinph · 12-03-2021 10:22PM

pansophelia wrote: »

I think that's a great question. Part of the issue is I suppose, that not all beginners are created equal. Some beginners have a background in sport, have spent years doing GAA, soccer, cycling, swimming etc, so even if they've never done much running, they have a good aerobic fitness and have some idea about the principles of training. They could probably head straight out the door and do a couple of miles on their first ever time running. Heard Sophie Power, a UK ultra runner on a podcast lately, she signed up for Comrades and completed it having only ever run a couple of miles - but she had taken up team sport in university and had done a lot of multi-day hikes.

Wondering if there might also be a difference between cyclists or swimmers switching to running compared to those coming from skill/ team/ ball sports?

Swimmers and cyclists know that you have to get the long slow duration training in, but another skill based or ball sport probably only encounters running in their training in terms of short sharp sprints. Their distance training equivalent is the likes of kicking a ball against a wall repeatedly, throwing the thing repeatedly or whatever is required to make that skill second nature and their running isn't something to particularly spend time on.

TRR_the_turd · 13-03-2021 07:35AM

plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose.

peter kern · 16-03-2021 02:59PM

pansophelia wrote: »

So true - the marketing can be really distracting. Instagram might be making it worse. I think most of my early gear was from Penneys, apart from the sports bra and the runners, and I ran my first Dublin marathon with a ten euro stopwatch from Argos - I wouldn't dream of doing that now.
It's an issue too as even though running is potentially a really cheap sport, it isn't as diverse as you'd hope, and I wonder are the runners and the gear and the gadgets contributing to that?

the question is why would you not dream of doing it now? and if you can back it up with a reasonable argument, good. if not you probably need to ask why not.

i dont think gadgeds are a problem. obviously for some they are a great motivational tool. for instance if i run with somebody faster i make sure i wear faster shoes if i run with somebody slower i put on my heaviest shoes. SO even in training an hightech shoe can make sense if used correctly.
i guess the issue is that too many people think they need stuff when they dont need it .
they think the more complicated it is the better it has to be , when good old KISS still works very well.
and i guess as long as east africans and black sprinters dominate running i dont really think we can argue gadgets are responsible for lack of diversity. as most of those people you might think off can afford an xbox.

AuldManKing · 17-03-2021 01:41PM

zico10 wrote: »

After a few weeks running, beginners are coming on here with a list of questions about breathing, cadence, heart rate, etc., etc., questions that are akin to the marginal gains Team Sky were chasing in professional cycling. Instead of being told not to worry about what is essentially the icing on a much, much bigger cake, they are given an answer that I’d need the Rosetta Stone to decipher.

Meanwhile over in the logs, a very experienced runner recognises the improvements another logger is making, are down to the simplicity and consistency of his training. Yet the same runner goes out the door with sessions programmed into his Garmin* that draw on the ideas of several different training plans. Then a few weeks later, after having listened to one too many podcasts and digested the contents of yet another training plan, decides things aren’t working and changes things once more.
*This is a big assumption possibly, but from looking at some of his runs on Strava, I don’t know how else he’d remember what he has to do.

At its most basic, running is merely putting one foot in front of the other as fast as you can. It’s an innate ability we all have, and when it comes to training, “Keep it simple and straightforward!” is possibly the best advice you’ll get.

Discuss.

PS. No slight intended to any poster.

BeginnerRunner wrote: »

//

WRT the OP - I think the Bruce Lee 3 punches anecdote is most apt. When you first lunch to punch, a punch is just a punch. Then when you start to learn - a punch is no longer a punch. Then when you master it, a punch is just a punch again.

"In the beginning when you are learning something, and you’re asked to throw a punch, you do and there’s no technique or learning behind it, a punch is just a punch.

In the second stage of learning you start to break down all the components of a punch. You understand your stance, your fist, you practice, and you try and find the best punch. A punch is no longer just a punch.

Finally, in the third stage you return to “A punch is just a punch.” Except this time, it’s something you have broken down, practiced, understood, and integrated, such that you no longer have to think about it, it’s automatic yet skilled.

These ideas can be applied to learning anything—it’s a progression from novice to mastery."

I really like that anecdote and I think it helps understand the mindset in answering Zico's OP.

I'm on Boards about 10 years or so - I'll give some snippets of my thinking as I've read through the posts.

When I joined - KC/TRR etc were the goto logs on here - both superb athletes and both nice people (cant believe TRR will see this) - but at that specific time - I felt they were in a clique that I wanted to be in.

Right now - I can really understand why people think Boards is Cliquey - I suppose we all know each other personally at this stage - so a beginner has to 'work' at this, by engaging as well.

I hold my hands up and say - well AMK, (yes, these are my initials) why dont you spend as much time on some logs as others?

I was thinking about this the other day - I have a personal investment in some logs as I know the people personally or I've never met them, but they are similar or better athletes - (Zico being someone I've not met, but I read his stuff).
If a new poster cops up, will I be as invested - no, not at 1st - but over time maybe.

Toxic? Not in my experience.

Back to Zico's OP...............
...........and, yes, I recognise myself in there as I do think I match his very description :P as I'm known for changing plans as often as anyone I know.

I think we're all chasing that 'flow', the training plan that works, the taper that helps us, the S&C that makes us full proof.

We're a weird lot us runners, full of OCD and self doubt at the best of times.
We ask questions, we give opinions, we change our minds.

It was this way 10 years ago - it will be this way in 10 years time.

Why'd you have to go and make things so complicated?

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