Where did America go wrong?

ShatterAlan · 12-03-2021 3:04pm

FatherTed wrote: »

As a parent of 3 American kids now in college I have to disagree with you. Like anything it’s what you make of it. Two of my kids studied Japanese in high school and spent 6 weeks going to school in Japan as part of an exchange program, my other learned spanish and also traveled to Mexico with one of his school friends who has family there the summer before last. They work hard and so do a lot of kids in school here, the opportunities are plentiful, you just have to seek them out.

I assure you that your 3 kids are the most glaring exception. Most American kids could not find Mexico or Japan on a map so you can forget about them ever actually visiting these places.

Of course then you'll get the usual knobhead chorus of "well why would Americans want to leave America and travel. America is the greatest and they have everything there so why travel?"

nicholasIII · 12-03-2021 3:13pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

I assure you that your 3 kids are the most glaring exception. Most American kids could not find Mexico or Japan on a map so you can forget about them ever actually visiting these places.

Of course then you'll get the usual knobhead chorus of "well why would Americans want to leave America and travel. America is the greatest and they have everything there so why travel?"

America is really weird as I said. When I was going to school there, I went to a very upper/middle class elementary school with the smartest people I've ever met. I'd say that 95% of people in my class are now employed in some STEM careers. Moreso than my classmates in secondary school here.

But in many cases, there are some Americans dumber than the average European.

As I said, a land of extremes.

Tony EH · 12-03-2021 3:16pm

nicholasIII wrote: »

But when we were coming back and went through the ****ty parts of L.A.....oh my God. If I was given a choice, I'd rather live in Ballymun than any poor part of America.

This is quite correct. Talk a walk through Baltimore or Detroit and you'll never look at the bad parts of Ireland in the same way again.

We really do not know how good we have things here.

If you have money in America, you'll be ok. Although it's getting that you need more and more money every year. But if something happens to you and you suddenly don't have money, America will turn its back on you.

And yes, as others have said, one should be careful about generalising when talking about the States (or any country for that matter), but the money thing is a nationwide issue it seems.

Fnz · 12-03-2021 3:25pm

Fritzbox wrote: »

I can understand it if the would-be emigrants had a profession or qualification which is in big demand in the US and where it is possible to really make it big if you were good at what you do, actor, film maker or something in the Hi-Tech industries.

Yes, it's problematic that the US chooses to pay more in wages, rather than subsidise 3rd level education. US elite profit from college-goers paying off their student loans (~$1.6 trillion in 2019 which was ~7.5% of 2019 GDP), while (necessarily) paying better wages on the other side to offset the outrageous outlay paid by students. The higher wages serves to entice qualified immigrants from other countries - many of whom, again, benefited from there own country's subsidised college tuition - leading to a likely brain drain from more compassionate countries to, well, the US.

nicholasIII · 12-03-2021 4:48pm

In regards to racism, does anyone think it's not as bad in the U.S.?

I feel that the media overblows it. I used to live there and it wasn't bad (and I lived in the South). I think actual racism is worse in non-Western countries/regions (e.g Eastern Europe, Asia, South America)

hgfj · 12-03-2021 4:59pm

kildare lad wrote: »

What's the story with the health system over there , I was on holidays in Vegas and my ex ended up in hospital . We were there for about 3 hours and all she got was an ultrasound scan . Everything was fine till we got the bill , it was 2,200 dollars . Just aswell we got insurance before we went . Land of the free , my arse.

I remember reading in the paper a few years ago about an Irish woman holidaying in NY. She ended up in hospital for a night. For whatever reason, either she had no insurance or the insurance was insufficient, but she ended up with a bill for about 40,000usd.
She was back in Ireland and they'd sent her the bill with a breakdown of her costs. Turns out most of the costs were because she had been hooked up to so many bleeping monitors. Her heart was being monitored even though there was nothing wrong with her heart. Her actual stay in the hospital came to a couple of thousand or so, I think, but it was all the other basically unnecessary bits and bobs that they had her hooked up to that cost so much.
I think she said she had no intention of paying and what were they going to do? Extradite her?

nicholasIII · 12-03-2021 5:14pm

hgfj wrote: »

I remember reading in the paper a few years ago about an Irish woman holidaying in NY. She ended up in hospital for a night. For whatever reason, either she had no insurance or the insurance was insufficient, but she ended up with a bill for about 40,000usd.
She was back in Ireland and they'd sent her the bill with a breakdown of her costs. Turns out most of the costs were because she had been hooked up to so many bleeping monitors. Her heart was being monitored even though there was nothing wrong with her heart. Her actual stay in the hospital came to a couple of thousand or so, I think, but it was all the other basically unnecessary bits and bobs that they had her hooked up to that cost so much.
I think she said she had no intention of paying and what were they going to do? Extradite her?

I'm pretty sure medical bills in many countries are a civil, not criminal issue. They only affect your credit rating if you don't pay. So she'd be ****ed for housing if she ever went to the U.S.

Fr Tod Umptious · 12-03-2021 5:29pm

nicholasIII wrote: »

In regards to racism, does anyone think it's not as bad in the U.S.?

I feel that the media overblows it. I used to live there and it wasn't bad (and I lived in the South). I think actual racism is worse in non-Western countries/regions (e.g Eastern Europe, Asia, South America)

I have no idea about the other regions you mentioned like Eastern Europe, Asia, South America but I lived in the north east US (Boston) and racism was and still is alive and well.

Theses palaces would be Democrat strong holds, never voting red in elections in decades but at the same time totally racist.

One part of town would contain very few black people, another very few white people.
Blacks and whites would not go to the same bars or restaurants, you would no see any interracial relationships etc.

Well educated, professional, open minded white people (may Irish born or Irish American) had no problem referring to blacks with the n word.
I don't know what blacks thought of whites as I did not know many black people, only the few I worked with.

Schools were not integrated in Boston until 20 years after they were integrated in the south.

On your point that you don't think it was that bad in the south I can see why not.
I guess part of the reason is that the great migration after the Civil War never really got as far as the north east.
A city like Boston does not have the same black populations as Chicago or Baltimore or Philly for example.
So they have not been as used of having black people around as the south would treat then with suspicion that maybe is less prevalent in the south.

riffmongous · 12-03-2021 8:43pm

poisonated wrote: »

Bar tenders in America earn a lot more than bar tenders here. If you work in a decent bar in a big city over there, you could easily earn six figures if you include tips. That’s what someone told me. It may be absolute BS though haha

I've heard similar too, the downside was though that you only got 2 (?) days holidays per year so any holidays you took had to come out of that, if your boss even let you take them (most did though of course).. and I imagine a lot of other social charges need to come out of that too but I never got to ask

salonfire · 12-03-2021 9:10pm

Those criticizing the US would be quick to avail of the medical and pharmaceutical technology that is developed there though.

riffmongous · 12-03-2021 9:13pm

salonfire wrote: »

Those criticizing the US would be quick to avail of the medical and pharmaceutical technology that is developed there though.

Quicker than any poor American, that's for sure

salonfire · 12-03-2021 9:51pm

riffmongous wrote: »

Quicker than any poor American, that's for sure

Exactly. And that drive to avoid poverty is what is behind the entrepreneurial and innovative culture in the US that makes it the driving force in almost all medical, scientific, and technology advances.

Fnz · 12-03-2021 10:27pm

salonfire wrote: »

Exactly. And that drive to avoid poverty is what is behind the entrepreneurial and innovative culture in the US that makes it the driving force in almost all medical, scientific, and technology advances.

That "drive to avoid poverty" is what maintains a disciplined workforce, that won't get too uppity. Grind unions and workers rights to dust and you now have "a competitive labor market!" where big companies will set up shop. Oh yeah, such a mystery why medical, scientific, and technology companies love the US.

nicholasIII · 13-03-2021 2:27pm

America's education is on average much poorer than other countries in the developed world. Here is a clip of some Irish American guy speaking to show you how bad it is when it comes to slurring words and using slang.

https://vocaroo.com/aKPfKojiOvC

Grayson · 13-03-2021 4:21pm

salonfire wrote: »

Exactly. And that drive to avoid poverty is what is behind the entrepreneurial and innovative culture in the US that makes it the driving force in almost all medical, scientific, and technology advances.

No, it's tax breaks for multinationals. Money flows there, that drives companies to make more money.

Hating poor people is just a by product of the protestant work ethic. Where people see work as good and not working as bad.

martingriff · 13-03-2021 5:20pm

Anerica is a huge country that is made up of 50 states (countries you could say) with there own seperate laws. To say what the whole country is like just from a few area is baffling. It be like saying Well the whole EU is like x just because of Dublin or Warsaw or Madrid

rossie1977 · 13-03-2021 6:57pm

Easy enough to pinpoint on this chart...

Deseras · 13-03-2021 7:04pm

What happens in america happens in rest of the world.vulture funds take over properties then start evicting people.ts already happening in ireland as they double the rents

Manic Moran · 13-03-2021 7:15pm

ELM327 wrote: »

The US gets a lot of things right and some things wrong.

Their social welfare policy is much better than the welfare state we have here. They also have a better more equitable tax system as you pay more taxes on your property than you do on a salary - compared to here. I have no issue with their gun control policies either.

The problem is a poor education system leading to uninformed extremists on both sides. You've got the outraged superwoke Karen (white woman, mid 40s, cries and screams at you for not being a white knight archdemocrat) and equally on the other side you've got the fat lower socioeconomic redneck trump supporter who votes Red despite not really knowing why as they offer less social protections than democrats.

Both of these positions come from poor education and the removal of the requirement to provide balanced news coverage.

Probably the best post on this thread so far.

The idea that Americans care only about themselves isn't quite accurate. It's more the details behind the underlying philosophy that differs.
https://www.philanthropyroundtable.org/almanac/statistics/who-gives#:~:text=Per%20capita%2C%20Americans%20voluntarily%20donate,reasons%20for%20this%20American%20distinction.
Six out of ten U.S. households donate to charity in a given year, and the typical household’s annual gifts add up to between two and three thousand dollars.

This is different from the patterns in any other country. Per capita, Americans voluntarily donate about seven times as much as continental Europeans. Even our cousins the Canadians give to charity at substantially lower rates, and at half the total volume of an American household.

or

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/the-us-is-the-most-generous-country-but-americans-say-debt-is-keeping-them-from-giving-more-to-charity-2019-10-18

The United States has been the most generous country in the world over the past decade.

That’s the conclusion of the World Giving Index, a ranking that measured how likely residents of 128 countries were to practice acts of generosity.

The index, from the U.K.-based nonprofit Charities Aid Foundation, is based on Gallup’s World Poll surveys of 1.3 million people.

It seems to be a case that Americans are quite happy to choose to be generous, but are much less happy when ordered to be generous (eg via taxes)

Similarly, all but the most extreme Americans believe there needs to be some form of a safety net. Everyone falls on hard times at some point; there's an accident with a bus, the employer folds and one becomes unemployed, and so on. The level of difference is between those who believe that there needs to be a time limit on the amount of support provided, long enough to catch one's feet again, vs the idea of perpetual support.

You may or may not agree with the philosophy, but it's not without some logic.

To answer the OP's question, it seems, to my mind, to be similar to as ELM suggests: Our media has become a source of 'satisfaction' and 'entertainment' more than a neutral reporting. Not that neutral reporting doesn't exist, but it gets overwhelmed by opinion pieces. Fox News' news segments are actually very good. The problem is that once the ten minutes of actual news is completed, then the mike is handed over to some columnist/talking head/show host who makes a mockery of the 'balanced' ideals. Ditto MSNBC, and even CNN to a point. Editorials and opinion are nothing new in the media, but they have become dominant of late.

It's not just the major broadcasts, the entire media structure is designed to appeal to one's own leanings. On my car radio, Sirius XM, channel 125 is called "Patriot". If you're conservative, you tune into it, and hear nothing but how wonderful your philosophies are, and how idiotic/evil/despotic those liberals are over on channel 127. Meanwhile, on channel 127, "Progress", that's where progressives all hang out, talking about how wonderful their philosophies are and how idiotic/evil/despotic those rednecks are over on channel 125.

These channels do not exist to inform. They exist to make money by appealing to people's opinions, and if people are listening to it, they are not informed.

Put bluntly, the US has forgotten how to have a civilised discussion, how to compromise (meaning 'some of what we want, some of what you want', instead of the current 'only some of what I want, none of what you want'), and how to take into account the fact that the US is a huge nation with a lot of different concerns and population types.

Comments about "1492" etc are very doll. I submit we went wrong with the advent of polarised mass media.

Hamachi · 13-03-2021 8:48pm

nicholasIII wrote: »

America's education is on average much poorer than other countries in the developed world. Here is a clip of some Irish American guy speaking to show you how bad it is when it comes to slurring words and using slang.

https://vocaroo.com/aKPfKojiOvC

I’ve heard this statement uttered many times and go unchallenged. On what basis do you assert that American education is inferior to other OECD countries?

There’s no such thing as an American education system. The caliber of education is entirely dependent on the school district. Certainly, many inner city districts are appalling and it’s an achievement if kids graduate high school with basic literacy and numeracy. However, many school districts in more affluent suburbs and exurbs, are extremely high caliber, in some instances offering superior education to anything available in Europe.

Personally, I work for an American tech company and interact with US colleagues on a daily basis. I’m frequently astounded by their intellectual horse power, innovative ways of thinking, and ‘can do’ attitude to overcome seemingly insurmountable obstacles. I learn something from them every day. They really leave Irish and European colleagues in the dust.

I’m pretty tired of this ‘Americans are dumb’ trope. It’s a country of extremes, which also means that it routinely produces some of the most brilliant, innovative minds known to mankind.

Yurt2 · 13-03-2021 9:56pm

Agree on Haimachi's general point. Some of the smartest cookies you will meet are Americans.

But I don't think there can be any doubt that their public school system is a disaster zone when taken in the round. Originally, it was based on the Prussian public school system which was designed to have a ground-floor of numerate, literate and confident young people ready to contribute to the nation.

It's been systematically starved, particularly in districts where richer voters (who don't rely on the public school system) get in a huff about local taxes and seek to divest from it.

NYC is guilty of this. Serious gerrymandering goes on with districts divesting from the public school system while directing funding to charter schools in their area which are more ethnically and class homogeneous (I'm talking monied people here).

ShatterAlan · 13-03-2021 9:59pm

nicholasIII wrote: »

America is really weird as I said. When I was going to school there, I went to a very upper/middle class elementary school with the smartest people I've ever met. I'd say that 95% of people in my class are now employed in some STEM careers. Moreso than my classmates in secondary school here.

But in many cases, there are some Americans dumber than the average European.

As I said, a land of extremes.

Not exactly a convincing testament, wouldn't you say?

A Junior Cert teenager in Ireland on average knows more about Science, Nature, Geography, Mathematics, etc., than your bog standard US college "grad".

I had to help my ex, when I lived in New York. She was studying Business Administration at St. John's in Queen's and had to take a "math" module. I had to teach her fcuking basic algerbra and simultaneous equations. I was asking myself....WTF were you doing at the age of 14 or 15 in school? Farting around with an abacus?

Hamachi · 13-03-2021 10:20pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

A Junior Cert teenager in Ireland on average knows more about Science, Nature, Geography, Mathematics, etc., than your bog standard US college "grad".

You know this, how? The anecdote about your ex is not representative of the tens of millions of US college grads.

If anything, US college grads have a broader knowledge base than their counterparts in Europe, given that they often only specialize for their major in the final year of a four year degree.

Do you really think a country that churns out college grads of junior cert caliber, would have the ability to found and staff companies like Google, Microsoft, Apple etc, etc?

14-03-2021 1:00pm

martingriff wrote: »

Anerica is a huge country that is made up of 50 states (countries you could say) with there own seperate laws. To say what the whole country is like just from a few area is baffling. It be like saying Well the whole EU is like x just because of Dublin or Warsaw or Madrid

Well said. As I said before, you can't compare life in Utah with life in New York.

Deseras wrote: »

What happens in america happens in rest of the world.vulture funds take over properties then start evicting people.ts already happening in ireland as they double the rents

Property ownership is going to be a dream for future generations in Ireland. Your social housing policies, which are absolutely ridiculous, are going to accelerate that process, and the policies of all of your major political parties, and I'm including your much loved SF in that, makes it very, very hard to see any light at the end of that tunnel.

Tony EH wrote: »

This is quite correct. Talk a walk through Baltimore or Detroit and you'll never look at the bad parts of Ireland in the same way again.

People here don't know what poverty is. I'll say no more about that.

ShatterAlan wrote: »

A Junior Cert teenager in Ireland on average knows more about Science, Nature, Geography, Mathematics, etc., than your bog standard US college "grad".

If that is the case, why does Ireland have to court, and pander to, countless companies from the US? Ireland should be a world leader. Moreover, the rankings for your third level universities are well below those in the USA, and third level education is free here. A student from a disadvantaged area has access to the same courses as a student from a wealthy area. That is not the case in the US.

ShatterAlan · 15-03-2021 1:39pm

salonfire wrote: »

Those criticizing the US would be quick to avail of the medical and pharmaceutical technology that is developed there though.

I can almost hear the petty whining in this statement.

ShatterAlan · 15-03-2021 1:49pm

Fnz wrote: »

That "drive to avoid poverty" is what maintains a disciplined workforce, that won't get too uppity. Grind unions and workers rights to dust and you now have "a competitive labor market!" where big companies will set up shop. Oh yeah, such a mystery why medical, scientific, and technology companies love the US.

+1

There's always someone who tries to make a silk purse out of the American sow's ear.

Excuse upon excuse or completely deluded explanations and justfications for America's glaring failures.

ShatterAlan · 15-03-2021 3:25pm

Hamachi wrote: »

You know this, how? The anecdote about your ex is not representative of the tens of millions of US college grads.

If anything, US college grads have a broader knowledge base than their counterparts in Europe, given that they often only specialize for their major in the final year of a four year degree.

Do you really think a country that churns out college grads of junior cert caliber, would have the ability to found and staff companies like Google, Microsoft, Apple etc, etc?

You accuse me of anecdotes and then go on to cherry pick a few companies whose founders are in no way indicative of the education system as a whole.

It's a fact that over 40% of Americans can't come up with a couple of hundred dollars in the event of an emergency yet your take would be to deny this citing the wealth on show in Malibu or The Hamptons.

And how do I know this, you ask? Because I lived there for several years and many of my friends and acquaintances were either in college or had graduated and their level of general knowledge was shocking. Now I know what you're going to say next, i.e. "why would they learn about world history or world geography or world events?" And the answer is because these things are important. The broader the knowledge the smarter the person. I can tell you that a majority of US college students would struggle with naming all 50 states and as for state capitals...not a hope. Rivers, mountain ranges, lakes, bays, etc, forget about it. Basic civcs like who is the Attorney General, what are the 3 branches of government, name the 13 original colonies and you'll be met with a blank stare.

There's also no denying that America is home to some of the best unicersities and research institues on Earth. The reason for this is that they are showered with billions from the Department of Defense and so can afford to have facilities that other colleges could only dream of. It's easy to win the preimier league when the club is owned by a Saudi trillionaire and can just go on a spending spree buying the best players for whatever price-tag they demand.

The Nal · 15-03-2021 3:32pm

ShatterAlan wrote: »

It's a fact that over 40% of Americans can't come up with a couple of hundred dollars in the event of an emergency

This is not a fact

BattleCorp · 15-03-2021 3:46pm

The Nal wrote: »

This is not a fact

Shatter isn't a million miles away though.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/01/21/41-percent-of-americans-would-be-able-to-cover-1000-dollar-emergency-with-savings.html

So 59% of Americans wouldn't be able to come up with $1000 in the event of an emergency.

Manic Moran · 15-03-2021 3:54pm

The Nal wrote: »

This is not a fact

Well, sortof. The figure comes from the 2018 report.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/files/2018-report-economic-well-being-us-households-201905.pdf

12% said they would be completely unable to cover the expense, the other 27% would either sell something, borrow, or put it on the credit card.

There's been a trend over recent years to improve the figure. Instead of 40%, as of July 2020, https://www.federalreserve.gov/publications/2020-update-economic-well-being-of-us-households-overall-financial-security.htm , the figure is now 30%, though no breakdown is provided of those who couldn't come up with the money at all vs those who would sell, borrow, or put it on long-term credit.

So 59% of Americans wouldn't be able to come up with $1000 in the event of an emergency.

Well, that figure only counts for the cash savings in hand or likely in hand within the next month. Only 3% say they don't know what they would do.

Out of interest, what are the Irish equivalent numbers?