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Land reclamation advice
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13-03-2021 10:43pm#1A family member has a 20 acre block, it was rented out for the last 42 years, not much done with it just grazed a few cattle,it is a little hilly, the top 10 acres is very dry but the bottom is wet,it is like dead grass very wet to walk on but you wouldn’t sink in it,it is like it is wet on top but dry underneath, there isn’t any big thick rushes in it, he is thinking of doing some work
He is going to drain the bottom 10 acres he has a a good fall and an open dyke at the bottom
He is then thinking of ploughing the field and reseeding, would ploughing help with drainage?
I would like to hear people’s views on this or people that have done similar0
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What was that field like before it was rented. Reseeding is the last action I would carry out on a field. I would first do a so test and try to correct land fertility and PH.
I would then keep the rushes cut for a year or two to see how the land reacts. If that dose not improve it you would need to be drained.Slava Ukrainii
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Bass Reeves wrote: »What was that field like before it was rented. Reseeding is the last action I would carry out on a field. I would first do a so test and try to correct land fertility and PH.
I would then keep the rushes cut for a year or two to see how the land reacts. If that dose not improve it you would need to be drained.
He doesn’t know as it’s been rented for the last 42 years, there’s not much rushes in it, just wet ground with real yellow grass like dredge, have you seen much land that was very wet and drained and how did it turn out?0 -
He doesn’t know as it’s been rented for the last 42 years, there’s not much rushes in it, just wet ground with real yellow grass like dredge, have you seen much land that was very wet and drained and how did it turn out?
A lot depends on the land type. Alot of wet land can have marl(white clay underneath. For drainage to be effective you need to get water away. It really depends on the water levels of the dyke/ drain at the bottom of the field. If the water level lowers in spring there is no reason that drainage cannot be successful.
Yellow grass is often a sign of land that has not been grazed out of over years and poor fertility. Correct fertility first then drainage ( if needed) before reseeding. Depending on farming system I be easy about reseeding. As well if ground is heavy with water retained grass seed choice is critical as many ryegrasses do not tolerate wet groundSlava Ukrainii
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Bass Reeves wrote: »A lot depends on the land type. Alot of wet land can have marl(white clay underneath. For drainage to be effective you need to get water away. It really depends on the water levels of the dyke/ drain at the bottom of the field. If the water level lowers in spring there is no reason that drainage cannot be successful.
Yellow grass is often a sign of land that has not been grazed out of over years and poor fertility. Correct fertility first then drainage ( if needed) before reseeding. Depending on farming system I be easy about reseeding. As well if ground is heavy with water retained grass seed choice is critical as many ryegrasses do not tolerate wet ground
Your right about not been grazed out I don’t ever remember seeing cattle much in the bottom and the bottom never got manure either, how would you get away the water and what would be the reason for holding water?0 -
Graze it of first and clean out the drain so you’ll have a better idea of what to do. No need spending a fortune and it mightn’t need it. Get sheep or horses on it to eat it to the but.0
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He doesn’t know as it’s been rented for the last 42 years, there’s not much rushes in it, just wet ground with real yellow grass like dredge, have you seen much land that was very wet and drained and how did it turn out?
Would you have a pic of the bottom land, what hight do the rushes grow to.
What type of water drains off the land (colour and like streks of oil or rust).
What type of subsoil.
Grass will go white from the water or as said not being grazed out.
Cattle normally love to graze bottom land in the summer, would it be moorish land with wirey grass.0 -
After a drain clean and tight grazing you could run a aerraror or mole drainer to open up the soils. May just be compacted near the surface.0
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Graze it of first and clean out the drain so you’ll have a better idea of what to do. No need spending a fortune and it mightn’t need it. Get sheep or horses on it to eat it to the but.
There is very little grass on it and also there isn’t many rushes in it, you wouldn’t travel it on a tractor at the moment but it’s not a swamp either it just seems spongy, there is land at the bottom of the field the other side of the dyke and that man cuts silage off it every year so the soil can’t be too bad you would imagine0 -
Would you have a pic of the bottom land, what hight do the rushes grow to.
What type of water drains off the land (colour and like streks of oil or rust).
What type of subsoil.
Grass will go white from the water or as said not being grazed out.
Cattle normally love to graze bottom land in the summer, would it be moorish land with wirey grass.
Sorry I should upload photos I will try if I can
There is many rushes in it and there were not topped,the man that had it never done anything to the bottom never spread manure or cut anything off it
There is one big dyke along the bottom separating it from another mans land, that is wet now also but he cuts silage off his every year, you wouldn’t travel it with a tractor but its not a swamp also just kind of spongy
I’d say it’s white from not been grazed or getting manure and also probably needs lime, if you were to drain there is a good fall so that should help, could you do anything with moorish land?
All the land adjoining it would be wet this time of the year but would be good summer ground with no issues traveling it0 -
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What colour is the other farmers place now. I imagine it is heavy land. Dug a hole and see how far you get. Is it good black earth or are you hitting marl. I imagine fertility is a lot of the problem so test first. If there was no fertlizer spread in a long while P&K may be drained and PH down at 5.5 or below. Soul test the up land as well. That is where you start two samples will cost about 50-60 euro one from upper part and one from lower part.
This summer when he can get in keep it topped and cut. This will weaken the rushes. Fence cattle into the lower part to force them to eat it out. Battery fencer, reel and 20-30 pigtails will fence it. Are the cattle allowed access to the drain for water, is it all dug up in the bottom from the cattleSlava Ukrainii
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Bass Reeves wrote: »What colour is the other farmers place now. I imagine it is heavy land. Dug a hole and see how far you get. Is it good black earth or are you hitting marl. I imagine fertility is a lot of the problem so test first. If there was no fertlizer spread in a long while P&K may be drained and PH down at 5.5 or below. Soul test the up land as well. That is where you start two samples will cost about 50-60 euro one from upper part and one from lower part.
This summer when he can get in keep it topped and cut. This will weaken the rushes. Fence cattle into the lower part to force them to eat it out. Battery fencer, reel and 20-30 pigtails will fence it. Are the cattle allowed access to the drain for water, is it all dug up in the bottom from the cattle
The place along the side is very green but that man looks after it and spreads lime when needed, the place bounding it at the bottom is hungry enough looking but that man never spread lime on it in his lifetime, if it was low in p and k would this have anything to do with the drainage? I know that would be the reason for white grass, there is very little rushes in it just a few small ones
There is no water in at the bottom they get that from the top part,the cattle more or less just go into the bottom for a walk around,0 -
How could it get compacted? If it was to be reseeded and ploughed would this help with drainage?
I know he said he got damn all heavy weight, but all clay will compact to some extent especially over a 40 year period plus. Yes plough would help, any kind of soil loosening will be a help, but as said a full plough may be an expensive way if the grass is still growing well.0 -
I know he said he got damn all heavy weight, but all clay will compact to some extent especially over a 40 year period plus. Yes plough would help, any kind of soil loosening will be a help, but as said a full plough may be an expensive way if the grass is still growing well.
I’d say it will have to be reseeded as I’d say the grass is very poor in it, he has no problems reseeding it it’s the drainage issues he is wondering about, can some soils not be drained?0 -
If it is marl underneath ploughing and reseeding is not going to resolve all the issue. I have seen lads spend 300/ acre reseeding such land and it reverts back in 2-3 years. You also have to factor in all the water from the higher ground has to go through this ground to exit.
The rushes you see are wire rush I think it's a blackish green rush that grows to 18'' as opposed to bull rush a bright green thick rush that grows to a meter tall at times.
Yes lime will help. A lot of lads have forgotten how to farm wet land. 30-50 years ago a lot of this land was ruined by lads going into it in tractors and breaking down old stone drains. Mike ploughing may work bit it needs to be done every year
The real question is will it pay. Is your friend going farming it or renting it again. If he is renting it he will need a tenant that will look after any work carried out. If he intends farming it such land is often as profitable in LIPP at 350/ HA.
Ploughing by itself may only course the problems for 2-3 years. Like I said soil test first. Lime helps drainage as it allows microbes to break down the soil and improve drainage over time. Grass will not grow well unless P&K are adequate but even after all that nothing will grow unless water can get away in spring.Slava Ukrainii
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An experienced digger man/ contractor is what is needed. When the weather dried a bit clean out the open drain. Once that's done and ye want to put drains in the field a lot of the water could be coming up from below so if starting at the low point come up and then out across the fall of the land if you get me, and you may catch more water. Don't be fannying about with 2inch land drainage either, use 4 or 6 inch and put a sewer pipe over the outlet to prevent roots from growing thru and blocking it.
Someone experienced at drainage would be a big advantage, any lad can drive a machine its knowing what to do with it is where the value is.
Drainage isn't cheap either to do right0 -
Bass Reeves wrote: »If it is marl underneath ploughing and reseeding is not going to resolve all the issue. I have seen lads spend 300/ acre reseeding such land and it reverts back in 2-3 years. You also have to factor in all the water from the higher ground has to go through this ground to exit.
The rushes you see are wire rush I think it's a blackish green rush that grows to 18'' as opposed to bull rush a bright green thick rush that grows to a meter tall at times.
Yes lime will help. A lot of lads have forgotten how to farm wet land. 30-50 years ago a lot of this land was ruined by lads going into it in tractors and breaking down old stone drains. Mike ploughing may work bit it needs to be done every year
The real question is will it pay. Is your friend going farming it or renting it again. If he is renting it he will need a tenant that will look after any work carried out. If he intends farming it such land is often as profitable in LIPP at 350/ HA.
Ploughing by itself may only course the problems for 2-3 years. Like I said soil test first. Lime helps drainage as it allows microbes to break down the soil and improve drainage over time. Grass will not grow well unless P&K are adequate but even after all that nothing will grow unless water can get away in spring.
The man that had it gave it back so he is going to farm it, he has a good job and doesn’t mind spending money on this as long as he doesn’t spend a lot of money reseeding and doing drainage and it doesn’t work out
What is marl? I googled it and it said it’s small rocks?can some land not be drained and reclaimed?
When there are no big rushes in it you would imagine it can’t be too bad
I have very little experience when it comes to this,just we had a wet spot at home and we cleaned a dyke that was always there and it made a big difference0 -
Bass Reeves wrote: »If it is marl underneath ploughing and reseeding is not going to resolve all the issue. I have seen lads spend 300/ acre reseeding such land and it reverts back in 2-3 years. You also have to factor in all the water from the higher ground has to go through this ground to exit.
The rushes you see are wire rush I think it's a blackish green rush that grows to 18'' as opposed to bull rush a bright green thick rush that grows to a meter tall at times.
Yes lime will help. A lot of lads have forgotten how to farm wet land. 30-50 years ago a lot of this land was ruined by lads going into it in tractors and breaking down old stone drains. Mike ploughing may work bit it needs to be done every year
The real question is will it pay. Is your friend going farming it or renting it again. If he is renting it he will need a tenant that will look after any work carried out. If he intends farming it such land is often as profitable in LIPP at 350/ HA.
Ploughing by itself may only course the problems for 2-3 years. Like I said soil test first. Lime helps drainage as it allows microbes to break down the soil and improve drainage over time. Grass will not grow well unless P&K are adequate but even after all that nothing will grow unless water can get away in spring.
From experiance. Get the drainage sorted first. If the main drains are opened you may find old stone drains and that will tell you their own story.
Last year I had a wet spot, opened in and found the triangular stone flag drags . they have collapsed somewhere up the line and it's on the to do list.0 -
Sorry I should upload photos I will try if I can
There is many rushes in it and there were not topped,the man that had it never done anything to the bottom never spread manure or cut anything off it
There is one big dyke along the bottom separating it from another mans land, that is wet now also but he cuts silage off his every year, you wouldn’t travel it with a tractor but its not a swamp also just kind of spongy
I’d say it’s white from not been grazed or getting manure and also probably needs lime, if you were to drain there is a good fall so that should help, could you do anything with moorish land?
All the land adjoining it would be wet this time of the year but would be good summer ground with no issues traveling it
It sounds like it is spongy from the wet, what height do the rushes grow, not how many.
Is there rust or like oil streaks in the water or drain,.
What depth of top soil and what type of subsoil.
I have land that is great for growing grass and some of the neighbours can't grow anything but rushed, don't get hung up on the neighbours land what's under his might be different.
I've seen white sand under bog and it's as good grassland as any. What type of subsoil is has a very big bearing on what can be done.
There is land here that was like slim, even the quad got stuck. There was grey marel subsoil for about 2' after that sandy subsoil. First time draining biggest problem was stopping the digger from sliding, but once I got the drains below the marel there was a significant improvement in the field
Also any trees on the land, what do they and the hedges look like.
If you have only 2" of topsoil ploughing will only bury it.
Might be no harm to all so dig a trial hole where the good land meets the bottoms.0 -
An experienced digger man/ contractor is what is needed. When the weather dried a bit clean out the open drain. Once that's done and ye want to put drains in the field a lot of the water could be coming up from below so if starting at the low point come up and then out across the fall of the land if you get me, and you may catch more water. Don't be fannying about with 2inch land drainage either, use 4 or 6 inch and put a sewer pipe over the outlet to prevent roots from growing thru and blocking it.
Someone experienced at drainage would be a big advantage, any lad can drive a machine its knowing what to do with it is where the value is.
Drainage isn't cheap either to do right
Have you done any drainage your self?
Can some soil not be drained?
What would be the reason that it would be holding water? To me I think there could be springs popping up also
Your right about getting an exsperienced man and I saw a video on line recommending to put a sewer pipe at the end of the drainage pipe,also a man told me before when doing drainage used sand stone instead of lime stone as the dust from the lime could block the drainage pipes would this be correct?
If drained right you would imagine it should work out0 -
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From experiance. Get the drainage sorted first. If the main drains are opened you may find old stone drains and that will tell you their own story.
Last year I had a wet spot, opened in and found the triangular stone flag drags . they have collapsed somewhere up the line and it's on the to do list.
Yeah I know a man that had a similar problem to you, he had old drains that collapsed, they were also done with flags, when you opened them up did you see any improvements?0 -
The man that had it gave it back so he is going to farm it, he has a good job and doesn’t mind spending money on this as long as he doesn’t spend a lot of money reseeding and doing drainage and it doesn’t work out
What is marl? I googled it and it said it’s small rocks?can some land not be drained and reclaimed?
When there are no big rushes in it you would imagine it can’t be too bad
I have very little experience when it comes to this,just we had a wet spot at home and we cleaned a dyke that was always there and it made a big difference
Marl....is bluey/white clay,that water cant pass through (causes flooding on top)...would be known as murren,where im from
Suprisingly good stuff to.fatten lambs on,if you can get it to grow grass on/get water off surface quickly0 -
From experiance. Get the drainage sorted first. If the main drains are opened you may find old stone drains and that will tell you their own story.
Last year I had a wet spot, opened in and found the triangular stone flag drags . they have collapsed somewhere up the line and it's on the to do list.
You are right about correcting drainage first...if it is needed. And as I said the old stone drains put in 100+ years ago may be broken down by tractors over last 50. However because of the water traveling through it the amount of nutrients that are often lost from such land make it impossible to grow grass on it. Lime can be stripped from such land by water and along with the water and low land temperatures it can be very slow to grow grass.
Yes you can drain it and spend a lot of money on it. But OP said that the farmer on the other side of the dyke has issues with part of it as well. If the PH is below 5.5 at present it will not grow grass anyway
Marl is a white/ grey clay that lets virtually no water through. You may have 3-8'' of top soil and then this clay. You could spend 500-1000/ acre draining it and reseeding it but unless the nutrients are correct ryegrasses will die out in 3-5 years. Even after that it may cost you 50-100/ acre to maintain it.
Often on this type if land as the drains were cleaned over the years the mud was only thrown up on the bank and spread. This can often lead to the physical bank of the dyke being 2-3'' higher than further in the field. The side wall of the bank can be sealed with the clay as well as the first 6-8 metres from the bank. As well you need to assertain what height the water table in the dyke is in different stages of the year
Mole ploughing will correct sealing of the bank edges and can often do a great job on such land. Is there an outlet for water. From the present dyke will the water level lower substantially in spring
As I said it could cost your friend 10k to drain and reseed this portion of the field. Even if successful will he make a net margin of 300/ acre from cattle or sheep on it. By just carrying out minimal improvement and getting older grasses to regrow he could draw LIPP on it in any new environments scheme. Last time LIPP was wort 350/ HA. If the dyke is water bearing for longer than 6 months of the year you can get paid to fence it back 1.5 m. You have 2k in environmental payments with little inputSlava Ukrainii
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I’d say it will have to be reseeded as I’d say the grass is very poor in it, he has no problems reseeding it it’s the drainage issues he is wondering about, can some soils not be drained?
Better explanations from other posts here.
All soil can be drained to some extent by aerating, or different types of drainage.
But as said, clean old drain in case there is old shores and dig test hole to determine soil and subsoil.0 -
It sounds like it is spongy from the wet, what height do the rushes grow, not how many.
Is there rust or like oil streaks in the water or drain,.
What depth of top soil and what type of subsoil.
I have land that is great for growing grass and some of the neighbours can't grow anything but rushed, don't get hung up on the neighbours land what's under his might be different.
I've seen white sand under bog and it's as good grassland as any. What type of subsoil is has a very big bearing on what can be done.
There is land here that was like slim, even the quad got stuck. There was grey marel subsoil for about 2' after that sandy subsoil. First time draining biggest problem was stopping the digger from sliding, but once I got the drains below the marel there was a significant improvement in the field
Also any trees on the land, what do they and the hedges look like.
If you have only 2" of topsoil ploughing will only bury it.
Might be no harm to all so dig a trial hole where the good land meets the bottoms.
The ground is more spongy than very wet
The rushes don’t grow very high only a few inches, not many in it anyway
The water is clear in the drains
Plenty of soil to plough, what the soil is like I don’t know
Not many trees but plenty of bushes, mainly white thorn
So what do you make of that?0 -
Better explanations from other posts here.
All soil can be drained to some extent by aerating, or different types of drainage.
But as said, clean old drain in case there is old shores and dig test hole to determine soil and subsoil.
Yeah cleaning the drain should be the first thing to do, have you ever seen it where drainage was done and didn’t work out?0 -
Bass Reeves wrote: »You are right about correcting drainage first...if it is needed. And as I said the old stone drains put in 100+ years ago may be broken down by tractors over last 50. However because of the water traveling through it the amount of nutrients that are often lost from such land make it impossible to grow grass on it. Lime can be stripped from such land by water and along with the water and low land temperatures it can be very slow to grow grass.
Yes you can drain it and spend a lot of money on it. But OP said that the farmer on the other side of the dyke has issues with part of it as well. If the PH is below 5.5 at present it will not grow grass anyway
Marl is a white/ grey clay that lets virtually no water through. You may have 3-8'' of top soil and then this clay. You could spend 500-1000/ acre draining it and reseeding it but unless the nutrients are correct ryegrasses will die out in 3-5 years. Even after that it may cost you 50-100/ acre to maintain it.
Often on this type if land as the drains were cleaned over the years the mud was only thrown up on the bank and spread. This can often lead to the physical bank of the dyke being 2-3'' higher than further in the field. The side wall of the bank can be sealed with the clay as well as the first 6-8 metres from the bank. As well you need to assertain what height the water table in the dyke is in different stages of the year
Mole ploughing will correct sealing of the bank edges and can often do a great job on such land. Is there an outlet for water. From the present dyke will the water level lower substantially in spring
As I said it could cost your friend 10k to drain and reseed this portion of the field. Even if successful will he make a net margin of 300/ acre from cattle or sheep on it. By just carrying out minimal improvement and getting older grasses to regrow he could draw LIPP on it in any new environments scheme. Last time LIPP was wort 350/ HA. If the dyke is water bearing for longer than 6 months of the year you can get paid to fence it back 1.5 m. You have 2k in environmental payments with little input
Your righ about the ph, I know a man bought a place a few years ago he done a soil test it had a very bad ph and needed 5 ton of lime to the acre
This was never fertilized so it is probably lacking everything, if it was drained and reseeded and looked after he should get good results, I suppose most places are wet this week
What is this scheme you are on about fencing back from the dyke?0 -
Sorry I should upload photos I will try if I can
There is many rushes in it and there were not topped,the man that had it never done anything to the bottom never spread manure or cut anything off it
There is one big dyke along the bottom separating it from another mans land, that is wet now also but he cuts silage off his every year, you wouldn’t travel it with a tractor but its not a swamp also just kind of spongy
I’d say it’s white from not been grazed or getting manure and also probably needs lime, if you were to drain there is a good fall so that should help, could you do anything with moorish land?
All the land adjoining it would be wet this time of the year but would be good summer ground with no issues traveling it
Have a look at making Jadam Microbial solution.
It's a fungal and anaerobic bacterial solution made from forest soil, potatoes (starch food source to cultivate microbes that thrive on poor do's) and seawater (more microbes, micro nutrients and rises pH).
Sounds very hippy dippy. But doing that cultivates lactic acid bacteria in the solution which live in either aerobic (oxygen environment) or anaerobic (non oxygen environment). The solution needs moisture in the soil to move into the subsoil (anaerobic environment) where the bacteria break open the subsoil, deepening the topsoil and over time and use makes the soil more free draining.
The times to use it are before winter to let the rains wash it deep into the soil and after winter.
If the land requires deep draining and drains and grading, it requires deep draining and drains and grading.
But the solution is there as another tool in the box.0 -
Yeah cleaning the drain should be the first thing to do, have you ever seen it where drainage was done and didn’t work out?
Well in bits of drainage I've done here then yes,
I'd have a lot of springs boiling up out of the ground, so I've obviously missed the start of some of them as ground is still wet in some of them areas.
I just need to go at them again with extra shores, it's costly tho.0 -
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Have you done any drainage your self?
Can some soil not be drained?
What would be the reason that it would be holding water? To me I think there could be springs popping up also
Your right about getting an exsperienced man and I saw a video on line recommending to put a sewer pipe at the end of the drainage pipe,also a man told me before when doing drainage used sand stone instead of lime stone as the dust from the lime could block the drainage pipes would this be correct?
If drained right you would imagine it should work out
We have, have a lot of ground water here and some fields would be poor at surface water drainage as well. Ye will have to investigate to see what's there really. We tend to go with deep land drains, would be 6ft plus by the time you'd be into the field, drainage pipe and stone. There could be water going into the drain from the ground with every bucket pulled out or you could go a distance depending on the field to hit a spring. In 19 we drained 9 acres or so, came to near 1600 an acre, not including reseeding, for digger drainage pipe stone etc. Have pics but they are too big to load here. Have 4 or 5 outlets, with two land drains feeding each outlet, haven't stopped flowing since they went in. Was slow going as had to dig wide in places as the drain would collapse otherwise so there was myself and another lad sorting pipes and stone with the digger man on the machine the whole time0
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