Star Trek Discovery Season 3 [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]

breezy1985 · 09-03-2021 09:00PM

RandomViewer wrote: »

Finished "The Expanse" last weekend, secondary characters have more backstory than Discovery main cast,

Prax vs Sarcastic Engineer or Fred Johnson vs High 5 bridge guys

RandomViewer · 09-03-2021 10:54PM

breezy1985 wrote: »

Prax vs Sarcastic Engineer or Fred Johnson vs High 5 bridge guys

Sakai, Bull, Monica, even Bobbi's team in series 2 had more character development

EltonJohn69 · 09-03-2021 11:56PM

Is it possible that Star Trek just fades away ? Star Wars is going to continue being huge, I think the expanse has huge potential for more spin off series/movies, battle star galactic is back with a great show runner. Star Trek movies have no demand, the numerous show are only there to try and get people in for a streaming service . If Star Trek doesn’t do something radical it isn’t going to survive.

H3llR4iser · 10-03-2021 01:04AM

Evade wrote: »

I think Kurtzman must have some sort of ADD or something. I started watching Salvation on Netflix but I had to pack it in a few episodes into season two. It's an asteroid heading towards Earth series but it couldn't just be that there's about five of six secret plots piled on top of one another and it just gets so convoluted.

It's the virus that infests modern "narrative", not just TV shows.

I've read more than one book lately where I found myself fighting the urge to skip past entire chapters as they stray away from the main storyline to explore "side quests" which, usually, have little to no relevance to the main thing.

EltonJohn69 wrote: »

Is it possible that Star Trek just fades away ? Star Wars is going to continue being huge, I think the expanse has huge potential for more spin off series/movies, battle star galactic is back with a great show runner. Star Trek movies have no demand, the numerous show are only there to try and get people in for a streaming service . If Star Trek doesn’t do something radical it isn’t going to survive.

The problem is that Star Trek is in the hands of people who do not understand what it is and what it is supposed to be. They see it as just any other "generic space opera".

The demand for Star Trek exists, the problem is that what they've been putting out is NOT Star Trek. The writers/showrunners took a franchise with six decades of history, the biggest following of any IP ever made (only effectively rivaled by Star Wars), that effectively didn't have any real additions to it for nearly 20 years and, instead of looking at its core strengths and how to build upon them, they toyed with it a little, poked it with a stick, failed to understand how it worked and declared "we need to change everything".

By removing the core concepts that made Star Trek unique and different from any other random "monkeys in space" sci-fi, they ended up with just any another "monkeys in space" pile of crap, that competes with plenty of similar material - which however happens to be better thought out.

silverharp · 10-03-2021 10:04AM

there is a lot to be said for a normal episodic shows, I watch the Expanse but I it doesnt really keep my attention so I kinda forget who everyone is and what they are supposed to be doing.

GreeBo · 10-03-2021 10:54AM

silverharp wrote: »

there is a lot to be said for a normal episodic shows, I watch the Expanse but I it doesnt really keep my attention so I kinda forget who everyone is and what they are supposed to be doing.

But you can get your fix for that from The Orville or Lost In Space, The Expanse isnt trying to fill that gap, its trying to tell a story, along the lines of lord of the rings. I think the Expanse would have made an excellent 3 part movie.

pixelburp · 10-03-2021 11:05AM

Ah lads, a bit of a smell of "old man yells at cloud here", nostalgia ain't what it used to be

Let's not completely turn Discovery into some totem to modern storytelling, cos it ain't even close to emblematic. Golden Age of TV n all, TV is where the good writing exists now IMO. And the episodic format isn't that dead either, it just changed itself slightly so that often was bookended by a main arc. "Procedural" is generally how they go by.

Discovery is just mush for the brain, and has never ever hit the utter cringeworthy lows of something like Sub Rosa. Episodic TV under the strain of 26 episodes produced a lot of utter tosh that non Trek people use to slate Trek

breezy1985 · 10-03-2021 11:09AM

EltonJohn69 wrote: »

Is it possible that Star Trek just fades away ? Star Wars is going to continue being huge, I think the expanse has huge potential for more spin off series/movies, battle star galactic is back with a great show runner. Star Trek movies have no demand, the numerous show are only there to try and get people in for a streaming service . If Star Trek doesn’t do something radical it isn’t going to survive.

Trek will be fine when someday someone who knows how to make good TV gets a hold of it. It's just bad luck that Trek got the guy who can't put a story together and tries to be the next Michael Bay with his CGI shots. Even doing arcs and single character stories it could have worked with someone else

GreeBo · 10-03-2021 11:12AM

breezy1985 wrote: »

Trek will be fine when someday someone who knows how to make good TV gets a hold of it. It's just bad luck that Trek got the guy who can't put a story together and tries to be the next Michael Bay with his CGI shots. Even doing arcs and single character stories it could have worked with someone else

They could have even just copied the Trek Shorts and made them full episodes, at least we got to see the characters (sans-Burnham)

silverharp · 10-03-2021 11:26AM

GreeBo wrote: »

But you can get your fix for that from The Orville or Lost In Space, The Expanse isnt trying to fill that gap, its trying to tell a story, along the lines of lord of the rings. I think the Expanse would have made an excellent 3 part movie.

2 nice shows. An Expanse film would need to be tight so would probably enjoy that. in the current series i liked the one about the settlement that was going to be flooded, too much of it though is like Eastenders in Space, at least give me Sopranos in Space

pixelburp · 10-03-2021 12:00PM

breezy1985 wrote: »

Trek will be fine when someday someone who knows how to make good TV gets a hold of it. It's just bad luck that Trek got the guy who can't put a story together and tries to be the next Michael Bay with his CGI shots. Even doing arcs and single character stories it could have worked with someone else

Trek hasn't been consistently great in 20 years, not if you factor in Voyager and Enterprise into the equation. Oh sure, you got the odd good season, maybe some standout episodes amongst the dross, but a solid, efficiently executed Trek show? Unseen since DS9 IMO. Nostalgia is doing a lot of heavy lifting in those 20 years and while I doubt Disco will have as many standout episodes that soften the memory, let's be blunt here: for me this is a franchise in search of itself for longer than Kurtzmann was on the scene. Berman and Braga started the rot.

Heck Abrams and Kurtzmann came on board precisely because it was a franchise that was a spent force. Nemesis was garbage, a dying scream from a series on its last cultural legs. But unlike someone like Russell T Davies who took an extinct property (Dr who) and revitalised it while remembering the things that made it great, Kurtzmann tried to remove those genetic links; a shot in the arm for the 2009 film but ultimately a dead cat bounce. But that he appeared at all said a lot about the state of Trek.

RandomViewer · 10-03-2021 12:02PM

GreeBo wrote: »

But you can get your fix for that from The Orville or Lost In Space, The Expanse isnt trying to fill that gap, its trying to tell a story, along the lines of lord of the rings. I think the Expanse would have made an excellent 3 part movie.

Don't like the Orville,too many smug gits, Lost in Space is very good technically, vehicles ,ships etc..

Evade · 10-03-2021 12:35PM

pixelburp wrote: »

Discovery is just mush for the brain, and has never ever hit the utter cringeworthy lows of something like Sub Rosa. Episodic TV under the strain of 26 episodes produced a lot of utter tosh that non Trek people use to slate Trek

I'd gladly take more Sub Rosas and Thresholds if they came alongside the Chains of Commands and Inner Lights. Being very uneven is better than consistently bad.

breezy1985 · 10-03-2021 12:38PM

pixelburp wrote: »

Trek hasn't been consistently great in 20 years, not if you factor in Voyager and Enterprise into the equation. Oh sure, you got the odd good season, maybe some standout episodes amongst the dross, but a solid, efficiently executed Trek show? Unseen since DS9 IMO. Nostalgia is doing a lot of heavy lifting in those 20 years and while I doubt Disco will have as many standout episodes that soften the memory, let's be blunt here: for me this is a franchise in search of itself for longer than Kurtzmann was on the scene. Berman and Braga started the rot.

Heck Abrams and Kurtzmann came on board precisely because it was a franchise that was a spent force. Nemesis was garbage, a dying scream from a series on its last cultural legs. But unlike someone like Russell T Davies who took an extinct property (Dr who) and revitalised it while remembering the things that made it great, Kurtzmann tried to remove those genetic links; a shot in the arm for the 2009 film but ultimately a dead cat bounce. But that he appeared at all said a lot about the state of Trek.

Abrams and Kurtzmann both make vacant flashy shows and we're completely the wrong fit and add to that Paramount/CBS and Badrobot don't have the guts the likes of HBO have to do their own thing and just followed trends and fed people memberberries.

Trek wasn't any more dead than BSG or Dr. Who it just got the wrong people to restart it

Rawr · 10-03-2021 12:49PM

Evade wrote: »

I'd gladly take more Sub Rosas and Thresholds if they came alongside the Chains of Commands and Inner Lights. Being very uneven is better than consistently bad.

Kind of my own thinking too. Pre-Kelvin Trek is choc full of stuff that's truly awful compared to the later stuff, but the pay-off was a load of classic stuff too. A bad episode one week was just bad luck...something good was probably a short while down the road.

Discovery and to a lesser extent Picard lack this impact either way. I was hopeful with Picard, but alas the final impact of that show felt dull and disappointing. At least with shows past there was some impact and some lasting impression. With Discovery it behaves as if has impact....but this appears exist solely within the script...but really there's no impact of note despite their best efforts to get the cast to emote to extreme levels or their efforts to throw every CGI trick at us to make the show visually interesting. Secret Hideout (or probably Kirtzman himself) appear to be wholly incapable of delivering a scifi show with any real "Ooomf" to it, despite the wealth of resources available to them.

It is my hope that CBS eventually realise this, and either demand a better showrunner, get Kurtzman to back off from the productions himself (which I still feel happened with Lower Decks), or give the license to another production company. Then maybe those resources could go to better use.

pixelburp · 10-03-2021 01:02PM

Evade wrote: »

I'd gladly take more Sub Rosas and Thresholds if they came alongside the Chains of Commands and Inner Lights. Being very uneven is better than consistently bad.

I think we're into quibbling on degrees of bad because I wouldn't class the badness of Disco in the same vein as that of Sub Rosa. The latter is just a phenomenally awful piece of fiction top to bottom, Discos consistent crime is its refusal to engage (oho!) with its own franchise in a meaningful way. Bad writing, but I'd speculate easier to forgive were it more "Trek", as has often been the accusation. Either way, Trek hasn't hit a stride in years. It needs better stewards than Berman or Paradise (let's be accurate here an keep things to showrunners I guess)

breezy1985 wrote: »

Abrams and Kurtzmann both make vacant flashy shows and we're completely the wrong fit and add to that Paramount/CBS and Badrobot don't have the guts the likes of HBO have to do their own thing and just followed trends and fed people memberberries.

Trek wasn't any more dead than BSG or Dr. Who it just got the wrong people to restart it

I did say as much, that he was the wrong person to lead, but I don't agree Trek was still a living franchise. It was dead, the flirtations of old school nerds that weren't seen worth catering for. Like I said, Nemesis was the cultural death rattle of a series out of steam.

H3llR4iser · 10-03-2021 01:12PM

pixelburp wrote: »

Ah lads, a bit of a smell of "old man yells at cloud here", nostalgia ain't what it used to be

This is not at all a matter of "nostalgia" nor "rose tintend glasses", it's a matter of understanding that things (can be a show or anything else) have defining core characteristics which, if taken out, change the whole assembly ("product", marketers would say) into something else.

You take Star Trek, you remove most of its core philosophies (collaboration, competence, exploration, meritocracy, duty, respect, vision) by replacing them with basically their opposites; Then to "improve" things, you also end up tearing the IP's universe to shreds (the Klingon Empire is a cartoon villain, the UFP is no more, the RSE is no more, Vulcans behave like idiots...), you end up with something that's not Star Trek anymore.If that's the idea, then make something entirely new.

They were free to make "Fantabulous Michael Burnham saves the Universe" or "Young great Ensing Tilly makes Captain for no reason", they could've done them no problem, without having to slap a "Star Trek" sticker or them. Who knows, these might have been decent with different premises:D.

That is, if the story wasn't a pile of steaming turds straight out the backside of a triceratops.

pixelburp wrote: »

Discovery is just mush for the brain, and has never ever hit the utter cringeworthy lows of something like Sub Rosa. Episodic TV under the strain of 26 episodes produced a lot of utter tosh that non Trek people use to slate Trek

Jeez, I'm curious about this Sub Rosa now

(Edit - I see, I didn't remember the title of that specific episode!)

As for the "non Trek people slating Trek"...it's a show that carries one of the biggest, longest standing, most dedicated fandoms of anything mankind has ever produced in terms of entertainment; Is it really a good idea to tell them all to "eff off" because some people make silly comments about the aliens being humanoid, or the uniforms...or any other irrelevant detail? You'll always have people who don't like a show, any show. In the case of anything Sci-Fi, even more so as it's a polarizing genre - a good chunk of any audience will refuse it by default as something they'd consider "silly", but why directly antagonize and alienate the existing viewership?

And then there's the bandied "making Trek relevant in today's environment" - the CLASSIC core values of Star Trek were NEVER more relevant than today, if one really check things out: competence, meritocracy, respect.

Evade · 10-03-2021 01:15PM

pixelburp wrote: »

I think we're into quibbling on degrees of bad because I wouldn't class the badness of Disco in the same vein as that of Sub Rosa. The latter is just a phenomenally awful piece of fiction top to bottom, Discos consistent crime is its refusal to engage (oho!) with its own franchise in a meaningful way. Bad writing, but I'd speculate easier to forgive were it more "Trek", as has often been the accusation. Either way, Trek hasn't hit a stride in years. It needs better stewards than Berman or Paradise (let's be accurate here an keep things to showrunners I guess)

I wasn't trying to imply all of Discovery's episodes were worse than the worst of the rest of the franchise but they are probably all safely in the bottom third.

GreeBo · 10-03-2021 01:21PM

pixelburp wrote: »

I think we're into quibbling on degrees of bad because I wouldn't class the badness of Disco in the same vein as that of Sub Rosa. The latter is just a phenomenally awful piece of fiction top to bottom, Discos consistent crime is its refusal to engage (oho!) with its own franchise in a meaningful way. Bad writing, but I'd speculate easier to forgive were it more "Trek", as has often been the accusation.

I disagree with this, Discovery is just bad, it wouldnt matter what universe it was set it.

pixelburp · 10-03-2021 01:46PM

Evade wrote: »

I wasn't trying to imply all of Discovery's episodes were worse than the worst of the rest of the franchise but they are probably all safely in the bottom third.

For sure, and I'm not disagreeing but my original point is merely that the first step to Trek's recovery is acknowledging that as pop culture goes it has been left behind more than others, and became a bit - and I use this term loosely - deeply uncool. Discovery isn't the disease, merely a symptom. Trek 2009 was the wrong response to a legitimate problem of a series in the creative doldrums. And remains there.

Unfortunately, Abrams, Kurtzman etc are a demographic of Hollywood powerplayers who have failed upward in defiance of common sense and obvious fan distaste. Abrams is now producing a Superman film, Jesus Christ (though at least the writer attached there sounds pretty interesting). And while I'm glad Trek isn't another IP in the monolithic Disney portfolio, somebody kinda needs to take Trek off of Paramount at this stage. Who I don't know cos American pop culture is a shítshow ATM. Its obvious Paramount don't know what to do with it.

breezy1985 · 10-03-2021 02:43PM

Evade wrote: »

I'd gladly take more Sub Rosas and Thresholds if they came alongside the Chains of Commands and Inner Lights. Being very uneven is better than consistently bad.

Discovery fans always point to Sub Rosa and the like as "proof" that Discovery is of the same standard but the big difference is a few Sub Rosas in an episodic series don't ruin all around it like a bad plot in and arc does

pixelburp · 10-03-2021 02:55PM

breezy1985 wrote: »

Discovery fans always point to Sub Rosa and the like as "proof" that Discovery is of the same standard but the big difference is a few Sub Rosas in an episodic series don't ruin all around it like a bad plot in and arc does

Wait now. I'm not a fan of Discovery, don't do that. I may speak as devils advocate but don't put words in my mouth, if that was aimed at me (I was the one who mentioned Sub Rosa, so presumably)

breezy1985 · 10-03-2021 02:56PM

pixelburp wrote: »

For sure, and I'm not disagreeing but my original point is merely that the first step to Trek's recovery is acknowledging that as pop culture goes it has been left behind more than others, and became a bit - and I use this term loosely - deeply uncool. Discovery isn't the disease, merely a symptom. Trek 2009 was the wrong response to a legitimate problem of a series in the creative doldrums. And remains there.

Unfortunately, Abrams, Kurtzman etc are a demographic of Hollywood powerplayers who have failed upward in defiance of common sense and obvious fan distaste. Abrams is now producing a Superman film, Jesus Christ (though at least the writer attached there sounds pretty interesting). And while I'm glad Trek isn't another IP in the monolithic Disney portfolio, somebody kinda needs to take Trek off of Paramount at this stage. Who I don't know cos American pop culture is a shítshow ATM. Its obvious Paramount don't know what to do with it.

Trek was never cool and shouldn't try to be. Trying to make it cool just leads you down the Fast and Furious route. It should of course try and be successful but not by copying what others are doing in an attempt to be popular. Be high concept, be intelligent have an evolved sensibility and f**k writing the show based on what you think Stranger Things or Walking Dead fans will like

breezy1985 · 10-03-2021 02:59PM

pixelburp wrote: »

Wait now. I'm not a fan of Discovery, don't do that. I may speak as devils advocate but don't put words in my mouth, if that was aimed at me (I was the one who mentioned Sub Rosa, so presumably)

Sorry I was trying to add to your point. I was talking about the full on Discovery apologists I don't think anyone on here is one of those.

I love how offended people get about being accused of being Discovery fans

pixelburp · 10-03-2021 03:14PM

breezy1985 wrote: »

Trek was never cool and shouldn't try to be. Trying to make it cool just leads you down the Fast and Furious route. It should of course try and be successful but not by copying what others are doing in an attempt to be popular. Be high concept, be intelligent have an evolved sensibility and f**k writing the show based on what you think Stranger Things or Walking Dead fans will like

I did say "loosely". I wasn't happy with the choice of words for that reason; not cool in the sense of chasing trends or fashion, but when the great Geek Renaissance happened around the mid 2000s, Trek was a franchise curiously left behind in the move. Enterprise wasn't that long dead so I suspect corridors of entertainment power reasoned the franchise was stale and past it. BSG made it look very limp and old hat, a relic of a bygone era.

And I think Stranger Things is a good, well written show that subverts the tropes it ostensibly embraces but that's another discussion. I wouldn't lump it in as emblematic of a poverty of TV writing - if anything the Duffer Brothers would probably do a much better job of appreciating Trek

RandomViewer · 10-03-2021 03:26PM

Stripey face paint and a few ridges doesn't an Alien make, main fault of Star Trek since day one

breezy1985 · 10-03-2021 03:31PM

pixelburp wrote: »

I did say "loosely". I wasn't happy with the choice of words for that reason; not cool in the sense of chasing trends or fashion, but when the great Geek Renaissance happened around the mid 2000s, Trek was a franchise curiously left behind in the move. Enterprise wasn't that long dead so I suspect corridors of entertainment power reasoned the franchise was stale and past it. BSG made it look very limp and old hat, a relic of a bygone era.

And I think Stranger Things is a good, well written show that subverts the tropes it ostensibly embraces but that's another discussion. I wouldn't lump it in as emblematic of a poverty of TV writing - if anything the Duffer Brothers would probably do a much better job of appreciating Trek

You would never think BSG and Enterprise were from the same time.

Stranger Things is good I like it too I more just meant that new Trek should try to be good in its own way and not just copying what's popular

pixelburp · 10-03-2021 03:53PM

breezy1985 wrote: »

You would never think BSG and Enterprise were from the same time.

Stranger Things is good I like it too I more just meant that new Trek should try to be good in its own way and not just copying what's popular

You really wouldn't, but I suspect it was Nemesis that did the real damage to the brand in the long run. Enterprise was the wet fart to the franchise on TV but as a popular property, Trek cut a very tired, ragged figure on the big screen. Rather than having the confidence to make a low-mid budget adult thriller in the spirit of the TNG TV show, the studio forced a blockbuster action flick, directed by someone who famously (IIRC) had never watched Trek in his life. Once it crashed and burned the studio would only inevitably draw the wrong conclusion.

And looking at 2021, you know what? I get it to some degree. Trek occupies an odd space, in that its cultural reach is arguably equal to Star Wars, Harry Potter, Marvel and other powerhouses of geek culture - yet it has distinct cerebral aspirations and delineations; often making it incompatible with the kind of financial targets you might aim for with an IP that large. It also (probably) has a much older fanbase at this stage than the other properties - let's face it, there's probably a lot of grey in the hair of your average Trekkie these days

You can't make a "four quadrant" movie out of the Trek IP, but it's so big, why wouldn't you at least try? Star Trek 2009 gave a weird misleading sense that you could, with only the third of the reboot series managing to properly thread the needle between blockbuster thrills and something more "Trek" in feel. Into Darkness was a cinematic abomination that should have killed Abrams career as a blockbuster director.

It'd never happen, but what Trek needs is to be given to a studio on the level of Blumhouse: it's obviously outside their wheelhouse as (predominant) peddlers of horror films, but they absolutely know how to marry a creative vision with fiscal common sense. Universal made an absolute bags of their "Dark Universe" idea and The Mummy (directed by ... drumroll, Alex Kurtzman!), whereas in one film with "The Invisible Man", Blumhouse knocked it out of the park with one of the best horror thrillers of recent years. Trek needs that kind of scaled back, stripped down to the core approach.

Evade · 10-03-2021 04:56PM

pixelburp wrote: »

directed by someone who famously (IIRC) had never watched Trek in his life.

There's a part in the DVD commentary where he claims he wanted the Scimitar's bridge to look like a more sinister version of the Enterprises for thematic dark mirror reasons and that an alien bridge had never been laid out similarly to a Starfleet bridge. And he's right except for all the times alien bridges were redressed Starfleet bridges.

GreeBo · 10-03-2021 05:48PM

RandomViewer wrote: »

Don't like the Orville,too many smug gits, Lost in Space is very good technically, vehicles ,ships etc..

Ah but they know they are smug gits, thats the crucial difference!

Star Trek Discovery ***Season 3*** [** SPOILERS WITHIN **]

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Star Trek Discovery Season 3 [ SPOILERS WITHIN ]