Why'd you have to go and make things so complicated?

zico10 · 06-03-2021 12:44pm #1

After a few weeks running, beginners are coming on here with a list of questions about breathing, cadence, heart rate, etc., etc., questions that are akin to the marginal gains Team Sky were chasing in professional cycling. Instead of being told not to worry about what is essentially the icing on a much, much bigger cake, they are given an answer that I’d need the Rosetta Stone to decipher.

Meanwhile over in the logs, a very experienced runner recognises the improvements another logger is making, are down to the simplicity and consistency of his training. Yet the same runner goes out the door with sessions programmed into his Garmin* that draw on the ideas of several different training plans. Then a few weeks later, after having listened to one too many podcasts and digested the contents of yet another training plan, decides things aren’t working and changes things once more.
*This is a big assumption possibly, but from looking at some of his runs on Strava, I don’t know how else he’d remember what he has to do.

At its most basic, running is merely putting one foot in front of the other as fast as you can. It’s an innate ability we all have, and when it comes to training, “Keep it simple and straightforward!” is possibly the best advice you’ll get.

Discuss.

PS. No slight intended to any poster.

06-03-2021 1:02pm

I can't say I've noticed it here necessarily, but I think newcomers put huge analysis into diet, heart rate, drop size, pronation, which watch, etc. when they should really focus on getting out as often as possible. I always tell them they all add to performance, but usually when someone is talking about eking the last few percentage points out of themselves, maybe racing a few years and knows their body, training, pace, distance preferences.

For me, there 2 pieces of simple advice...

1. It can't be fluked. It's almost a lesson in life, there are no short cuts, there is no drink that will shave minutes off a 5km, there is no substitute for getting out again and again and again.

2. if you can join an AC, do it.

bucketybuck · 06-03-2021 1:04pm

Count me as one of those who looks at some training plans and just finds my eyes glazing over.

A lot of them just overcomplicate things, which is fine for those who actually need those marginal gains but lets face it, the vast majority of people would be better served with clarity and simple focus.

Its like asking directions to the shop and getting latitude, longtitude and the eircode, when all you really needed was to be told "turn right at the junction, go straight and then take the 2nd left after the roundabout."

walshb · 06-03-2021 1:16pm

bucketybuck wrote: »

Count me as one of those who looks at some training plans and just finds my eyes glazing over.

A lot of them just overcomplicate things, which is fine for those who actually need those marginal gains but lets face it, the vast majority of people would be better served with clarity and simple focus.

Its like asking directions to the shop and getting latitude, longtitude and the eircode, when all you really needed was to be told "turn right at the junction, go straight and then take the 2nd left after the roundabout."

This in a nutshell

Can understand elites looking for every minute detail to get them extra seconds, half seconds, quarter seconds and so on.....

But the average Joe......put one foot in front of the other and give it a little welly!

And get your sleep!!!!!

jamule · 06-03-2021 1:46pm

Deleted User wrote: »

I can't say I've noticed it here necessarily, but I think newcomers put huge analysis into diet, heart rate, drop size, pronation, which watch, etc. when they should really focus on getting out as often as possible. I always tell them they all add to performance, but usually when someone is talking about eking the last few percentage points out of themselves, maybe racing a few years and knows their body, training, pace, distance preferences.

For me, there 2 pieces of simple advice...

1. It can't be fluked. It's almost a lesson in life, there are no short cuts, there is no drink that will shave minutes off a 5km, there is no substitute for getting out again and again and again.

2. if you can join an AC, do it.

Jayus I hate to agree with Conor. Keep things simple , get out as often as you can, join a club or group, help coach kids, do diff routes, diff types of runs but never forget about the basic foundations of a slow run.

To improve try 3 sessions over 10 days ( long, tempo and speed), there is a myriad of diff types of run to be done within the 3 sessions.

And keep doing it week after week, month after month, anything is possible but it takes time, disipline and effort.

Most of all enjoy it and try and smile.

As much as i love the stats its all just bollix to the actual running and improvement.

Kurt_Godel. · 06-03-2021 1:46pm

I was at an online talk last night with Alister Brownlee and his training partner Mark Buckingham (elite British triathletes). Amongst all the probing questions we AG athletes were asking (looking for the holy grail), it was amazing just how simple the training responses were. Keep the hard sessions hard, keep the easy sessions easy. Make sure you have a recovery workout the day after a hard session. Get enough sleep and nutrition. Both said they had no idea what their lactate threshold was (training by HR is simpler and better). Mix up your routes, find a gang you enjoy training with, make sure you enjoy what you are doing.

Simple stuff, but they said abiding by this simple stuff is what allows them train 30hr a week for the past 15 years, and compete at the top of their sport. The point was made that these simple basics will work no matter what your level- obviously there is going to be a difference in intensity/hours/volume, but there is no magic science beyond the general broad strokes.

Marty Bird · 06-03-2021 1:54pm

Kurt_Godel. wrote: »

I was at an online talk last night with Alister Brownlee and his training partner Mark Buckingham (elite British triathletes). Amongst all the probing questions we AG athletes were asking (looking for the holy grail), it was amazing just how simple the training responses were. Keep the hard sessions hard, keep the easy sessions easy. Make sure you have a recovery workout the day after a hard session. Get enough sleep and nutrition. Both said they had no idea what their lactate threshold was (training by HR is simpler and better). Mix up your routes, find a gang you enjoy training with, make sure you enjoy what you are doing.

Simple stuff, but they said abiding by this simple stuff is what allows them train 30hr a week for the past 15 years, and compete at the top of their sport. The point was made that these simple basics will work no matter what your level- obviously there is going to be a difference in intensity/hours/volume, but there is no magic science beyond the general broad strokes.

I couldn’t agree more with this Kurt, hard session hard easy and so on.

The biggest one for me personally is consistency to run stronger and faster it’s that simple for me anyway.

OOnegative · 06-03-2021 2:04pm

I like things simple when it comes to running so I’ve taken a liking to P&D when it comes to plans from a book. I’ve bought & read Daniels and it’s complete gibberish to me and something I don’t understand, Hanson’s also to a lesser extent.

I read about running for maybe 3/4 hours a week but like the simple approach to it, some like to take the complicated way of doing things as it makes them look like a good runner in a way(not talking about anyone here). Simply put I like to keep things simple so I understand the process of what I’m doing.

Diet - everything in moderation. I don’t overindulge in regards anything food wise nor do I deprive myself of that piece of chocolate.

Podcasts - don’t listen to them as I prefer the sound of the outdoors when I run.

Consistency - the key to improving at all things running, if you train correctly for a consistent period of time you will reap rewards when you race(emphasis on the correctly for “you” part).

API · 06-03-2021 2:12pm

zico10 wrote: »

After a few weeks running, beginners are coming on here with a list of questions about breathing, cadence, heart rate, etc., etc., questions that are akin to the marginal gains Team Sky were chasing in professional cycling. Instead of being told not to worry about what is essentially the icing on a much, much bigger cake, they are given an answer that I’d need the Rosetta Stone to decipher.

Meanwhile over in the logs, a very experienced runner recognises the improvements another logger is making, are down to the simplicity and consistency of his training. Yet the same runner goes out the door with sessions programmed into his Garmin* that draw on the ideas of several different training plans. Then a few weeks later, after having listened to one too many podcasts and digested the contents of yet another training plan, decides things aren’t working and changes things once more.
*This is a big assumption possibly, but from looking at some of his runs on Strava, I don’t know how else he’d remember what he has to do.

At its most basic, running is merely putting one foot in front of the other as fast as you can. It’s an innate ability we all have, and when it comes to training, “Keep it simple and straightforward!” is possibly the best advice you’ll get.

Discuss.

PS. No slight intended to any poster.

Sounds like they simply want to impress people (to me anyway)
If its all going on public viewing like Strava and into logs then its for others to read.

Wottle · 06-03-2021 2:50pm

API wrote: »

Sounds like they simply want to impress people (to me anyway)
If its all going on public viewing like Strava and into logs then its for others to read.

Don't think that's it at all. People new to running become addicted quickly and as a result very excitable. In the times we live in, everything happens in the now, getting people to slow down in both life and running is difficult.

Step 1 for new runners should all be about establishing the habit. Just run don't get specific, add strides over time.
Step 2 having established the habit and now running 5 days a week, this is where the magic happens but it's more as a result of consistency and enjoyment, rather than specific workouts.
Join a club or training group.

Marty Bird · 06-03-2021 3:11pm

Kurt_Godel. wrote: »

I was at an online talk last night with Alister Brownlee and his training partner Mark Buckingham (elite British triathletes). Amongst all the probing questions we AG athletes were asking (looking for the holy grail), it was amazing just how simple the training responses were. Keep the hard sessions hard, keep the easy sessions easy. Make sure you have a recovery workout the day after a hard session. Get enough sleep and nutrition. Both said they had no idea what their lactate threshold was (training by HR is simpler and better). Mix up your routes, find a gang you enjoy training with, make sure you enjoy what you are doing.

Simple stuff, but they said abiding by this simple stuff is what allows them train 30hr a week for the past 15 years, and compete at the top of their sport. The point was made that these simple basics will work no matter what your level- obviously there is going to be a difference in intensity/hours/volume, but there is no magic science beyond the general broad strokes.

I couldn’t agree more with this Kurt, hard session hard easy and so on.

The biggest one for me personally is consistency to run stronger and faster it’s that simple for me anyway.

API · 06-03-2021 3:15pm

Wottle wrote: »

Don't think that's it at all. People new to running become addicted quickly and as a result very excitable. In the times we live in, everything happens in the now, getting people to slow down in both life and running is difficult.

Step 1 for new runners should all be about establishing the habit. Just run don't get specific, add strides over time.
Step 2 having established the habit and now running 5 days a week, this is where the magic happens but it's more as a result of consistency and enjoyment, rather than specific workouts.
Join a club or training group.

Sorry, I should have quoted the part I was referring to. It was the part where Zico talks about experienced runners giving good simple advice and then making their own training complicated with fancy programs that are recorded on their logs and on Strava.

Murph_D · 07-03-2021 4:40pm

Ah, Avril Lavigne, blast from my kids’ past!

Good discussion to have, but is it REALLY a big issue in this forum? One of the things that attracts me to this place is the amount of people doing simple things well. Some people might be different, but what looks complicated to me might look simple to someone else. People who train badly soon get it pointed out to them. I think the vast majority of regular posters here do ‘simple and consistent’ training, to be honest.

ThebitterLemon · 07-03-2021 4:53pm

I just do what I’m told...

TbL

skyblue46 · 07-03-2021 4:59pm

Murph_D wrote: »

Ah, Avril Lavigne, blast from my kids’ past!

Good discussion to have, but is it REALLY a big issue in this forum? One of the things that attracts me to this place is the amount of people doing simple things well. Some people might be different, but what looks complicated to me might look simple to someone else. People who train badly soon get it pointed out to them. I think the vast majority of regular posters here do ‘simple and consistent’ training, to be honest.

I think that generally the regulars here are doing consistent training that most would consider simple. Surely highlighting one particular runner is a little unfair even if no slight was intended...

Swashbuckler · 07-03-2021 10:59pm

Hmm.. That's a strange one.. Seems odd to create a thread both criticising advice people are giving to beginners and also criticising the training approach of someone experienced.

If you think the advice to beginners is bad then offer up your own advice. In fairness you have a fairly impressive history so there's plenty for you to offer. Similar, if you think someone's approach to training is off the mark then throw your input into their log. It's hard to see how singling out a specific poster is not a slight. The fair thing to do is to question them directly or just not bother saying anything atall.

Plently of examples of training going on that I wouldn't necessarily 100% agree with but unless I have a specific input that I think would be uselful to them I just keep schtum.

ultrapercy · 07-03-2021 11:43pm

I think social media and internet has taken a lot of the spontanaity out of life. Finding your own way has been replaced by an information over load that has made people sort of helpless. Every mundane activity now requires the input of a qualified 'expert'. Its in every walk of life not just running. Local junior gaa teams have backroom teams that include nutritionists, psycologists data anyalists etc. All in persuit of the 2 precenters as they are called, despite the fact that the largest portion of the 98% remains unclaimed. Running pages are the worst though "how do I breath" "whats the best way to tie my laces" "should I have a ****e before or after my warm up" its insane. The thing about running is that the wisdom of others is very little use despite how relevant it is because you still must put in the hours and miles to improve and as you do that you aquire the wisdom for yourself.

API · 08-03-2021 12:15am

Murph_D wrote: »

Ah, Avril Lavigne, blast from my kids’ past!

Good discussion to have, but is it REALLY a big issue in this forum? One of the things that attracts me to this place is the amount of people doing simple things well. Some people might be different, but what looks complicated to me might look simple to someone else. People who train badly soon get it pointed out to them. I think the vast majority of regular posters here do ‘simple and consistent’ training, to be honest.

skyblue46 wrote: »

I think that generally the regulars here are doing consistent training that most would consider simple. Surely highlighting one particular runner is a little unfair even if no slight was intended...

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Hmm.. That's a strange one.. Seems odd to create a thread both criticising advice people are giving to beginners and also criticising the training approach of someone experienced.

If you think the advice to beginners is bad then offer up your own advice. In fairness you have a fairly impressive history so there's plenty for you to offer. Similar, if you think someone's approach to training is off the mark then throw your input into their log. It's hard to see how singling out a specific poster is not a slight. The fair thing to do is to question them directly or just not bother saying anything atall.

Plently of examples of training going on that I wouldn't necessarily 100% agree with but unless I have a specific input that I think would be uselful to them I just keep schtum.

Isn't it a pity that you wouldn't put your effort into actually going to the newer logs and acknowledging and interacting with runners there instead of backing each other up. Your responses are no better than Zicos post IMO. You all have plenty to say and just love impressing each other and patting each other on the back.

I'm out of here but before I go I'd like to offer some honest from the heart opinion of my experience here. Not just to you three but to others too.

1, I don't even know where Zico got the idea that the people from the logs section even give any advice to newbies starting logs. Most of them don't even acknowledge someone unless their times are impressive.

2, Have a look in the logs section, there is nobody logging who is a genuine beginner. There's a reason for that.

3, You get these little speeches on some of the pages saying how great it is to see so many logging. Yet they don't go to those new logs and acknowledge their existence or welcome them to boards. Some might say they shouldn't have to but this is the type of set-up where literally if you read around the logs, it is just people who seem to know each other chatting to people they know. You actually should make some effort to welcome newbies instead of preaching on your page to ''look'' like a nice person.

4, I have the same one or two people who are kind enough to acknowledging my running. Absolutely no interaction or interest whatsoever.

5, Then they wonder why there's hardly anyone starting logs.

6, You have little passive aggressive acknowledgements to each other and thats about the height of it..

7, Its a toxic environment.

robinph · 08-03-2021 10:50am

Swashbuckler wrote: »

Hmm.. That's a strange one.. Seems odd to create a thread both criticising advice people are giving to beginners and also criticising the training approach of someone experienced.

Isn't the "problem" being highlighted that begginers are asking complicated questions in the first place? There is then a tendancy to take the bait and give them a complicated reply.

Basically all that begginer runners need to be told is run further, run more often and run slower and that would cover most things. The most important is generally to run slower though as that is the least obvious tip that they are unlikely to figure out for themselves.

08-03-2021 10:53am

ultrapercy wrote: »

I think social media and internet has taken a lot of the spontanaity out of life...

Also, sport, and athletics, was a meritocracy.

You ran for years, improved, become a good local or club runner, maybe won races, got into coaching, got experience...and people looked up to and respected that.

Now anyone with Google seems to be able to analyse drop sizes and which shoelace after running a few weeks and barely breaking sweat...

zico10 · 08-03-2021 11:19am

Swashbuckler, you have a point. I’ll grant you that, but whether I post my opinion here or in the logs, my point still stands and I’d hope it’s taken in the spirit that it’s intended.

For 90% of the posters here, it’s probably obvious who I’m talking about, but I just picked out these individuals, as a recent exchange between the pair had me shaking my head. It puzzles me how someone who has gone from a 3:65 😕 marathon to 2:52, doesn’t have more confidence in the training he’s done up until now. If he was just to continue what he’s doing, I’ve no doubt those 3 minutes would come. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

Like a lot of runners starting off, it strikes me as someone getting lost in the world of “information overload” ultrapercy alludes to. I recognise I’m susceptible to this as well, we all are. And it would be very easy accuse me of being OCD about very minor things, but I like to think I always have the bigger picture in mind, and successfully keep the main thing the main thing.

demfad · 08-03-2021 11:22am

Let's be honest: If experienced runners here could travel back in time and advise their newbie self on ways to improve from the getgo would the advice be limited to 'just go out and run'? Would it f!%) !!

1: Will be grand, run like a tilted L "<" for 20 years with your butt stuck out behind, losing power with every stride, and causing chronic issues for the back of your body. Even though running form makes only a small % to elites but would be worth MASSIVE GAINS for a beginner to incorporate from the start, and an accelerator of improvement in all running sessions....leave it for a few decades, just run (with your butt two metres behind the rest of your body)....don't be fancy!

2: As well as improving fueling for running, good nutrition is a practice that translates to a runners general health and beyond. In other words, down with this! Better runners survived on ginger nuts, 1.5 litres of coke, who do you think you are?

ok...playing devils advocate but add more examples below!

healy1835 · 08-03-2021 12:59pm

How'd I miss this thread over the weekend! :eek:

For starters, I'm pretty sure Zico's OP won't be taken up in a negative manner.

Training for everyone has taken on more importance over the last year in the absence of races. I've found myself throwing in sessions of varying ilks just to add some stimulus and variety. Running is, by it's nature, a very simple pursuit. I've been lucky enough to have a mate looking after my training who has a lot of experience in his locker and has been coached by some great coaches, all of which has gone into my training plans over the last 5 years.

My own training has always been pretty straightforward from when I was running 6min kms at the start to the, relatively, quicker paces I trundle around at these days. But from having spent some time over the last while reading back over old logs on here, it's pretty clear that there are many ways to skin this particular cat, and most have their own individual merits.

We're all invested in our running and, most of us, are willing to take chances in our training and vary things to get there. I realise that I'm luckier than most in that I get my training programme and I just run what's on the page. What's prescribed is never too elaborate, but it's given me 5 years worth of progress to look back on, and a lot of what I'm doing now doesn't look a million miles different to what I did in 2015.

I'm probably glad that I didn't have Strava or Boards back then, as maybe I would have second guessed some of the stuff I was doing. There's a lot of information out there now for beginner runners and it can be hard to distill, especially if you are operating solo.

Reg'stoy · 08-03-2021 2:17pm

I wanted to fully digest the OP's original post before commenting, as my first reaction was that some of us were been told to climb back in our boxes.

Had a quick scan back through my own posts here, and my first one was over 12 years ago as a complete and utter novice (I might now be a beginner) runner. I was a long time lurker as there was always some very good honest advice, I learned loads from the first time marathon threads. Skip forward years to my next post, but it wasn't until the last few years that I felt confident enough to post regularly, hell it was only last year I felt justified in posted that I had completed a 1000 miles in 2019.

I have always tried to impart some 'wisdom' gained from my experience, but I do wish I had known a bit more when I began. I am still picking up tips here and else where (I particularly like the Running Channel on youtube) and I really think people just want to be the best runner/jogger/parkrunner they can be.

I'm disappointing to think that some people here think that I and other recreational runners should, well,.... be content. I have tried to temper my posts with the caveat that people first off should enjoy running and when I offer my tuppence worth that hopefully someone with more experience will be along soon with some better advice. I personally want to get quicker times and beat my PB's and sometimes us novices may ask about cadence or breathing in the hopes of gaining those few sec/mins.

The great thing about Boards for me, was always that community spirit, hell I asked a question over in the gardening forum knowing that a fellow board member would get back to me. I have got some cracking deals on the bargains forum, sure my Garmin watch is as a result of boards.

I don't think the OP was meant to be condescending but unfortunatly for me I'm going to become a lurker again, as the honesty I tried to use in my replies would now be tempered with the thought that it may cause eyes to roll when read.

shotgunmcos · 08-03-2021 2:31pm

Interesting discussion.

Firstly, Healy1835 and "trundle" don't belong in the same sentence

RE: the OP: Its logs like Zico's that go into so much detail that probably give newbies or new logs at least an idea of the stuff it takes to become a better runner. Its not always obvious that underneath the log is thousands upon thousand of miles, ups and downs, wins and losses etc..

Its hard sometimes to get your head around whats going on in Healy1835, AMK, LF or Swashbucklers logs sometimes as with a coaching you see patterns and sessions that are not out of a book, and you don't get the contextual detail around where those are in a program like you do from week 2 day 4 of J&D 30-50 week plan etc..

Finally to address the actual topic, the experienced runners (not necessarily always just the faster ones) talk about fundamentals like form, breathing, heart rate, cadence, weight. A new runner/logger may want to know more about these metrics that are both on the new watch they bought and detailed in logs they just found

When was the last time a random newbie asked a question on your log? When was the last time you asked one on theirs? Its appropriate IMO to open up a new thread for a topic such as heart rate or breathing, cadence etc. rather that lose it in log chat. I guess its up to the existing regular posters to help newer runners/loggers by referencing an existing useful thread or a log that speaks to that topic.

Kudos for starting this one, its more of these discussions we need.

Murph_D · 08-03-2021 3:56pm

Doesn’t Random Running Questions cover a lot of the basics? Personally I rarely contribute there because I don’t like the idea of a catchall thread where the topic moves on to the next as soon as someone changes the subject. On the other hand, maybe some posters see it as a non-judgemental place to ask basic questions.

Also - speaking from experience, over time you get jaded repeating the same basic advice - slow down, add structure, stop obsessing over the watch, listen to body - and eventually leave this to others, until they get jaded and someone else takes it up. As long as someone is saying it, that’s more important than who is saying it.

And while running is a simple sport (on the surface), the body is a complex machine, and there is nothing wrong with adding complexity - as long as the simple and obvious things are in place.

Annie get your Run · 08-03-2021 5:38pm

I definitely asked questions on HR, cadence and breathing when I was new relatively new to running. I remember (meno in particular) telling me I didn't need to think about any of those things and just go out and run and run slowly.

I don't see anything wrong with people asking questions, especially if they are brand new to running. How else are they to know to slow down, not overthink it etc etc? It's all very well to say running is putting one foot in front of the other but these days sports watches give you a dozen metrics that will confuse a new runner (and and old runner like me!) so people come in and ask.

Obviously the topic of this thread went completely over my head

I thought it was a general discussion about why *we* (runners) overcomplicate things! I have no problem passing on advice that was so generously (meno

) given to me in the past, if they want to take it great, if not, fine too.

I'm not entirely sure how this turned into a them and us row, again! I'd genuinely be interested to know what the problem really is?

robinph · 08-03-2021 5:47pm

I don't think we runners over complicate things, but the world around us had made non/ begginer runners think its complicated. You need to have fancy shoes, the right watch, do X minutes of warm up, get a medical review from you GP, eat special super foods, drink loads of water, have a supply of supplements and probably a bunch more stuff I've forgotten all before you take the first step out the front door to begin your running life.

People are trying to sell stuff, and they need to be creating a need for this stuff and their specialist training and equipment.

Those of us who have been round the block a few times and might need some fancy stats on how high our left foot rises off the ground on each step to relive the bordem just need remember that new runners have been bombarded with information about how complicated it all is.

lulublue22 · 08-03-2021 5:48pm

Honestly I’m not really sure what the point of this thread is. Surely a poster ( newbie or not ) is entitled to ask/ post a question / topic that is relevant to them. Other posters are free to answer or roll their eyes as they see fit. I’ve started threads on nutrition , heart rate and cadence. Why ? because I wanted to. I ‘ve had some interesting/ informative replies. Have some people rolled their eyes at those threads - possibly but honestly who cares. Is it not up to each poster how they use the forum , what threads they post , respond to or ignore.

lulublue22 · 08-03-2021 5:56pm

Annie get your Run wrote: »

I'm not entirely sure how this turned into a them and us row, again! I'd genuinely be interested to know what the problem really is?

I’d love to know who the them and us are ? I genuinely don’t understand what the issue is. I’m a long time lurker but only started posting recently. During my lurker days one issue which was raised again and again was a lack of newbies posting / participating. Yet when a slew of newbies do - you have a thread like this which could be quiteeasily construed as please stop posting. As a relative newbie who doesn’t fully understand the lay of the land it appears as if there is an underlying vibe going on that long timer users may be aware of. Apologies if this is not the case but it certainly reads like that.

Annie get your Run · 08-03-2021 6:03pm

lulublue22 wrote: »

I’d love to know who the them and us are ? I genuinely don’t understand what the issue is. I’m a long time lurker but only started posting recently. During my lurker days one issue which was raised again and again was a lack of newbies posting / participating. Yet when a slew of newbies do - you have a thread like this which could be quiet easily construed as please stop posting. As a relative newbie who doesn’t fully understand the lay of the land it appears as if there is an underlying vibe going on that long timer users may be aware of. Apologies if this is not the case but it certainly reads like that.

Unfortunately that's what it looks like to me too and it's not right (if that is the case, if I'm reading it wrong then apologies all round). I love to see new posters posting and they have every right to ask whatever questions they want and not get judged on those. I don't count myself as either a them or an us by the way!

I've a feeling though that the OP didn't mean for this to turn into the thread it has and that perspectives have been skewed (mine included no doubt).

Why'd you have to go and make things so complicated?

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