How much is this all going to cost and who will pay for it ?

suicide_circus · 04-03-2021 08:35PM

titan18 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there'll be a run in the banks if they try to tax savings. I've worked and paid tax on that money already, they can fcuk right off if they try and tax it again.

The government taxes already taxed money all the time. They wont go after savings but they'll probably go after private pensions again even though this is a terrible long term strategy.

Allinall · 04-03-2021 08:38PM

titan18 wrote: »

I'm pretty sure there'll be a run in the banks if they try to tax savings. I've worked and paid tax on that money already, they can fcuk right off if they try and tax it again.

It’s not the government but the banks themselves you need to watch out for.

Negative interest rates will do more damage than any government action.

Beasty · 04-03-2021 08:38PM

Threads merged

growleaves · 04-03-2021 08:40PM

Deleted User wrote: »

They, er, paid for the country by working and paying taxes. So no.

I'm not sure that the 'We are the people who pay for everything' spiel is justified in this instance since these work-from-homers were demanding that other lines of work be shut down and businesses barred from trading.

ingo1984 · 04-03-2021 08:42PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

We’ve being saying this on the restrictions thread for the last year. Unfortunately the penny hasn’t dropped for a lot of people yet.

I’ve seen plenty of posters saying the economy is fine and things will bounce right back. Sure it’s low interest free money they said.

The sad reality is that we have a huge deficit due to our inept handling of Covid. Instead of leading, our leaders delegated to a bunch of overpaid doctors with no economic experience.

Now we’ll have extra taxes and spending cuts to important services. There is no other way around it.

If you support restrictions, you asked for this.

That's before interest rates go up and we have to rollover our debt. Fun times ahead.

growleaves · 04-03-2021 08:43PM

"Let me give you a quick example of the height of insanity to which Italian taxation has risen. If you live in a building that has a balcony or balconies… and any of those balconies cast a shadow on the ground, you must pay a public shadow tax! I will say no more!" - Giacomino Nicolazzo

ThunbergsAreGo · 04-03-2021 08:43PM

So the workers will....as always

04-03-2021 08:46PM

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

That’s how our system works, but feel free to try live the life of someone who receives a free house....they don’t live in comfort or experience life in a manner you may consider decent.

I’m not quite sure that’s the real story here save for a couple of refugees.

completedit · 04-03-2021 08:47PM

Listening to a conference from the world bank on this very topic and also reading Debt by David Graeber

Triangle · 04-03-2021 08:55PM

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

Has anyone asked the finance minister if the government are still appealing the apple tax situation or are they willing to accept the money and who knows maybe reduce the debt owed due to the pandemic ?

You need to look into that 14b.
The EU commissioner has said that it should have been paid to European countries and therefore each country could fight for a slice.
I. E. Its not all irelands

suicide_circus · 04-03-2021 08:56PM

I wonder will they consider upping tax for low paid workers?

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/low-income-worker-ireland-has-smallest-tax-burden-for-low-paid-1.3633502

Or will they go for the high paid? Or corporations?

Or will it be the old reliable middle incomers hit again...

Irishphotodesk · 04-03-2021 08:58PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I’m not quite sure that’s the real story here save for a couple of refugees.

Taking aside the refugees etc,

A person who qualifies for social housing is earning minimum wage or earning unemployment from the state (€200per week ish)

Believe me I’m no fan of the lower end of society who ...in general...contribute very little if anything to society, but I’m not sure that those people are to blame for the ineptitude of the people making the decisions, if you are to direct your ire, I would suggest you do so at the civil servants that are making the decisions and causing the remainder of the country to get further and further into debt, without an apparent care for financial prudence, money is wasted and spent hand over fist with the assumption that we can sort it out once this pandemic is over.

So it isn’t the scroungers on benefits who are to blame ...its the civil servants making the decisions to spend millions on items which may not be the best use of public funds.

Allinall · 04-03-2021 08:59PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

I wonder will they consider upping tax for low paid workers?

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/low-income-worker-ireland-has-smallest-tax-burden-for-low-paid-1.3633502

Or will they go for the high paid? Or corporations?

Or will it be the old reliable middle incomers hit again...

It will be all across the board.

Will have to be.

Plumbthedepths · 04-03-2021 09:00PM

Allinall wrote: »

It will be all across the board.

Will have to be.

Yeah seems fair, which is exactly why it won't happen. Middle earners will get screwed as they always have and always will.

04-03-2021 09:00PM

suicide_circus wrote: »

The government taxes already taxed money all the time. They wont go after savings but they'll probably go after private pensions again even though this is a terrible long term strategy.

They won’t do that either. This was bad political timing. Once pup payments are reduced and the economy recovers is there any need for tax rises anyway? This isn’t 2008. We could barely borrow then. Money is virtually free these days.

04-03-2021 09:02PM

growleaves wrote: »

I'm not sure that the 'We are the people who pay for everything' spiel is justified in this instance since these work-from-homers were demanding that other lines of work be shut down and businesses barred from trading.

I’m confused as how you know who was agitating for what.

titan18 · 04-03-2021 09:05PM

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

Taking aside the refugees etc,

A person who qualifies for social housing is earning minimum wage or earning unemployment from the state (€200per week ish)

Believe me I’m no fan of the lower end of society who ...in general...contribute very little if anything to society, but I’m not sure that those people are to blame for the ineptitude of the people making the decisions, if you are to direct your ire, I would suggest you do so at the civil servants that are making the decisions and causing the remainder of the country to get further and further into debt, without an apparent care for financial prudence, money is wasted and spent hand over fist with the assumption that we can sort it out once this pandemic is over.

So it isn’t the scroungers on benefits who are to blame ...its the civil servants making the decisions to spend millions on items which may not be the best use of public funds.

Tbf, 200 a week is not what they get. They get housing/rent supplement etc too and other benefits. Someone could be earning 500 a week and half that going on rent and worse off than someone on social welfare.

LawBoy2018 · 04-03-2021 09:06PM

I can't see the Gov increasing the upper bracket of 40% tbh. Paschal has hinted at 'broadening the tax base'... we all know what that means!

growleaves · 04-03-2021 09:11PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I’m confused as how you know who was agitating for what.

I'm clairvoyant.

ThunbergsAreGo · 04-03-2021 09:14PM

titan18 wrote: »

Tbf, 200 a week is not what they get. They get housing/rent supplement etc too and other benefits. Someone could be earning 500 a week and half that going on rent and worse off than someone on social welfare.

But again its not their fault, it is the media for pushing a constant need to protect the "vulnerable" (and for the record I would love to protect genuine vulnerable) and most of all weak politicians who feel they can buy kudos, creating a welfare dependence.

FG told us they were "for those who get up early". This is a lie

Irishphotodesk · 04-03-2021 09:23PM

titan18 wrote: »

Tbf, 200 a week is not what they get. They get housing/rent supplement etc too and other benefits. Someone could be earning 500 a week and half that going on rent and worse off than someone on social welfare.

Well I’m certain I’m doing it wrong then, if you know how someone can qualify for €500per week, please post it, or PM me, with this pandemic I qualify for €150.70 per week (have been out of work since last March ....with occasional returns to work throughout the last year) .... but my unemployment benefit is €150.70, my wife works part time earning 6k a year and we have 2 kids.

It’s not been easy for the past year ...life is massively changed, I can no longer make a purchase without considering its impact on our family budget, we no longer eat out, meals are planned and batch cooking is necessary, we eat a lot of spaghetti/pasta based meals and every cent is counted.

As I have said though, the people making the decisions and getting this entire country into more and more debt are the civil servants ....not the bottom of the societal chain claiming everything the government is offering.

Edit: I should add that we have been lucky enough to receive anonymous donations from charities and through our church and family have assisted financially.

titan18 · 04-03-2021 09:38PM

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

Well I’m certain I’m doing it wrong then, if you know how someone can qualify for €500per week, please post it, or PM me, with this pandemic I qualify for €150.70 per week (have been out of work since last March ....with occasional returns to work throughout the last year) .... but my unemployment benefit is €150.70, my wife works part time earning 6k a year and we have 2 kids.

It’s not been easy for the past year ...life is massively changed, I can no longer make a purchase without considering its impact on our family budget, we no longer eat out, meals are planned and batch cooking is necessary, we eat a lot of spaghetti/pasta based meals and every cent is counted.

As I have said though, the people making the decisions and getting this entire country into more and more debt are the civil servants ....not the bottom of the societal chain claiming everything the government is offering.

Edit: I should add that we have been lucky enough to receive anonymous donations from charities and through our church and family have assisted financially.

I think you took me up wrong.

Let's say 200 a week, add on rent supplement/free housing which is pretty much the equivalent of about 250 a week for someone working on what they can be paying.

So someone working earning 500 a week can be getting taxed on that, paying rent with it, commuting costs, maybe they have crèche/babysitting fees they're paying in order to go out to work.

Imo that person ends up a lot worse off than someone on social welfare just for working.

Also, I agree the issue is the politicians, but there is a bit of blame on some of the very long term welfare recipients and the likes of the ones who'll have 6-7 kids just to get a house.

04-03-2021 09:44PM

“So it isn’t the scroungers on benefits who are to blame ...its the civil servants making the decisions to spend millions on items which may not be the best use of public funds.”

I think in this situation, a lot of the time it’s actually both government and the scroungers who are to blame. The notion that someone can have the state provide all for them without contribution is vomit inducing but the bowing to public pressure on the matter is just as sickening. But the reality is there are a many folk on this island who have every single thing provided for them by the state and believe that is the way it should be.

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

Well I’m certain I’m doing it wrong then, if you know how someone can qualify for €500per week, please post it, or PM me, with this pandemic I qualify for €150.70 per week (have been out of work since last March ....with occasional returns to work throughout the last year) .... but my unemployment benefit is €150.70, my wife works part time earning 6k a year and we have 2 kids.

It’s not been easy for the past year ...life is massively changed, I can no longer make a purchase without considering its impact on our family budget, we no longer eat out, meals are planned and batch cooking is necessary, we eat a lot of spaghetti/pasta based meals and every cent is counted.

As I have said though, the people making the decisions and getting this entire country into more and more debt are the civil servants ....not the bottom of the societal chain claiming everything the government is offering.

Edit: I should add that we have been lucky enough to receive anonymous donations from charities and through our church and family have assisted financially.

This is a totally different situation. You have rightly pointed out something very concerning here. You have contributed, your wife has contributed and you somehow have fallen into the trap of people who earn enough to get by but not just enough to get support where it’s deserved. That is what irks me the most is the people who contribute get absolutely sweet nothing back for the privilege of working. So maybe you’re right, the civil servants are definitely to be apportioned blame on that part, but it is a two way street. Those who take all get all. But I would definitely be appealing your amounts if I was honest. Something just doesn’t seem too right there.

Irishphotodesk · 04-03-2021 09:52PM

titan18 wrote: »

I think you took me up wrong.

Let's say 200 a week, add on rent supplement/free housing which is pretty much the equivalent of about 250 a week for someone working on what they can be paying.

So someone working earning 500 a week can be getting taxed on that, paying rent with it, commuting costs, maybe they have crèche/babysitting fees they're paying in order to go out to work.

Imo that person ends up a lot worse off than someone on social welfare just for working.

Also, I agree the issue is the politicians, but there is a bit of blame on some of the very long term welfare recipients and the likes of the ones who'll have 6-7 kids just to get a house.

But not every person on social welfare qualifies for rent supplement/free housing, we don’t and have to magic up €800ish every month just for the mortgage, I have had to sell off work tools and we have advertised and sold some items from the attic and around the house.

Also just to correct you, it’s not the politicians I am pointing the finger at, it’s the people making the decisions, the civil servants who tell the politicians what decisions to make...those are the people who are putting every single person in huge debt and not a single one of them will ever get admonished for any wastage of public funds.

ThunbergsAreGo · 04-03-2021 09:56PM

Irishphotodesk wrote: »

But not every person on social welfare qualifies for rent supplement/free housing, we don’t and have to magic up €800ish every month just for the mortgage, I have had to sell off work tools and we have advertised and sold some items from the attic and around the house.

Also just to correct you, it’s not the politicians I am pointing the finger at, it’s the people making the decisions, the civil servants who tell the politicians what decisions to make...those are the people who are putting every single person in huge debt and not a single one of them will ever get admonished for any wastage of public funds.

Its both. Many a politician hiding behind "it was in the Programme for Government" at the moment.

No party wants to distinguish between genuine vulnerable or unfortunate and those long term unemployed who contribute nothing. Easier to pay them off then tackle the problem.

But look there is waste everywhere, easier to squeeze those who pay for it then try tackle this and make difficult decisions

Irishphotodesk · 04-03-2021 10:18PM

ThunbergsAreGo wrote: »

Its both. Many a politician hiding behind "it was in the Programme for Government" at the moment.

No party wants to distinguish between genuine vulnerable or unfortunate and those long term unemployed who contribute nothing. Easier to pay them off then tackle the problem.

But look there is waste everywhere, easier to squeeze those who pay for it then try tackle this and make difficult decisions

I agree there is waste everywhere but when multiple millions are being wasted and without recourses difficult to accept.

With respect to the vulnerable and unfortunate and long term unemployed it’s easy to find the long term unemployed through medical illness and those genuinely seeking work and those who will do nothing to help themselves, I believe society should work on a contribute to benefit scale, allowing for everyone who contributes to qualify for payments from the state, those that break the laws of the state shouldn’t qualify for state benefits or should receive less benefits.... of course, I may be wrong in my opinion but it would help weed out those genuinely in need of help.

Geuze · 04-03-2021 11:45PM

Mr. teddywinkles wrote: »

Did I not just hear the GPs are getting 120e a shot for the vaccine?

25 dose + 25 dose + 10 admin = 60 per person

UK is GBP 12.58 + 12.58 = GBP 25.16 per patient / approx 30 euro

Geuze · 04-03-2021 11:47PM

JPup wrote: »

There's nothing incompatible between what Leo said in that article and the comments from Pascal Donohue in the original post. Pascal is saying that the deficit will need to come down, which it will naturally when the economy opens up. No need to increase tax rates necessarily, the government tax take will increase significantly just by getting people back to work.

Yes, of course the fiscal deficit must fall.

Yes, hopefully what you describe will happen - a strong recovery will increase tax receipts, and drive down welfare spending, so the deficit will fall without the need for tax increases.

blackvalley · 05-03-2021 12:13AM

suicide_circus wrote: »

Ah chillax. I'm a frontline worker of sorts who has also lost money. I'm more referring to all the folk working from home, time for them to pull on the green jersey

I’m perfectly relaxed but thanks all the same. Not nice to hear that anyone has lost money especially frontline staff.
Glad you clarified that you would be prepared to dip into the savings of those forced to work from home though.
I suppose you could call it “ equalising the suffering “

JPup · 05-03-2021 11:16AM

Irish GDP growth for 2020 published by the CSO at plus 3.4%. Absolutely no need for austerity or any increase in tax rates at the next budget except for carbon taxes which is for environmental reasons. The government’s financial health is multitudes better now than in 2009.

How much is this all going to cost and who will pay for it ?

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