Five years of marriage equality. How has our society survived.

Bannasidhe · 31-07-2020 6:06pm

Odhinn wrote: »

Are we though.................

Looking forward to the reboot of Tank Girl.

Odhinn · 31-07-2020 6:14pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Looking forward to the reboot of Tank Girl.

...a HBO series would be good.

robindch · 21-10-2020 7:26pm

Pope Francis indicates support for same-sex civil unions

Not exactly a ringing endorsement, but certainly a good step in the right direction:

Pope Francis wrote:

Homosexual people have a right to be in a family [...] They are children of God and have a right to a family. Nobody should be thrown out or made miserable over it. What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54627625

Odhinn · 22-10-2020 12:05am

robindch wrote: »

Pope Francis indicates support for same-sex civil unions

Not exactly a ringing endorsement, but certainly a good step in the right direction:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54627625

Fair play where fair play is due.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-10-2020 1:38am

Iona Institute denounce pope as a heretic in 3... 2... 1...

s1ippy · 22-10-2020 1:43am

They must be fair stuck for the few bob to let him say that.

For once thing, what self-flagellating, guilt-addled person has a same-sex relationship but also still loves the Catholic Church? I suspect that demographic might be more niche than he expects.

jill_valentine · 22-10-2020 1:44am

robindch wrote: »

Pope Francis indicates support for same-sex civil unions

Not exactly a ringing endorsement, but certainly a good step in the right direction:

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54627625

My impulse was to be quite curmudgeonly, but it was pointed out to me this does actually go quite a ways to undermine some of the spicier firebrands in places like Poland or post-missionary African Catholic communities. So, has to be said, yes, credit where it's due. I'll take harm reduction any day.

Now if somebody would just hurry up and marry me...

Peregrinus · 22-10-2020 2:04am

s1ippy wrote: »

They must be fair stuck for the few bob to let him say that.

For once thing, what self-flagellating, guilt-addled person has a same-sex relationship but also still loves the Catholic Church? I suspect that demographic might be more niche than he expects.

Though it might also be larger than you expect. It's only anecdotal, but I know several people who identify as gay and Catholic.

To be fair, I know more people who identify as gay and ex-Catholic. But "gay and Catholic" is not an uncommon identification, and gay Catholics get quite shirty at anyone who tells them that they can't be gay and Catholic. Or who assume that, if they are, they must be self-flagellating and guilt-addled.

lazygal · 22-10-2020 9:26am

Indeed. There are straight and gay Catholic people I know who *gasp* actually follow the teaching. They're celibate in the case of the gay man and in the case of a couple didn't have sex or live together before marriage, don't use contraception etc. And I absolutely respect them for literally practicing what's preached. They would also be very non judgemental about how other people live their lives, while being open about how important their faith is to their own lives.

cgcsb · 22-10-2020 9:35am

lazygal wrote: »

Indeed. There are straight and gay Catholic people I know who *gasp* actually follow the teaching. They're celibate in the case of the gay man and in the case of a couple didn't have sex or live together before marriage, don't use contraception etc. And I absolutely respect them for literally practicing what's preached. They would also be very non judgemental about how other people live their lives, while being open about how important their faith is to their own lives.

Those poor people, I hope one day they recover.

lazygal · 22-10-2020 9:40am

cgcsb wrote: »

Those poor people, I hope one day they recover.

They are very happy. I won't assume otherwise unless they tell me.

Peregrinus · 22-10-2020 9:43am

Yeah. There are also straight and gay Catholic people who challenge various teachings (and I know at least one whose reason for continuing to be a Catholic is, at least in part, so that he can challenge teachings). This doesn't make them not Catholic, and it doesn't make them self-flagellating or guilt-addled.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-10-2020 11:41am

Really makes the Irish hierarchy and Iona etc. look like the fools we always knew them to be. Another bit of their supposed authority chipped away

Render unto Caesar and all that. Civil marriage was never any of the church's business, and they should have steered well clear of trying to interfere in it.

xeresod · 22-10-2020 12:10pm

lazygal wrote: »

Indeed. There are straight and gay Catholic people I know who *gasp* actually follow the teaching. They're celibate in the case of the gay man and in the case of a couple didn't have sex or live together before marriage, don't use contraception etc. And I absolutely respect them for literally practicing what's preached. They would also be very non judgemental about how other people live their lives, while being open about how important their faith is to their own lives.

That's exactly the right way to do things!

If your faith says you should do things a certain way and not do other things, then that's what you do and let others not of your faith make their own choice as to what they do or not.

Religion done right!

landofthetree · 22-10-2020 12:13pm

lazygal wrote: »

Dire, dire warnings about the gays adopting any passing childers and we'd all be surrogates for them non stop. I think we're alright, given the circumstances.

Surrogacy is barbaric and should be banned. Of course that is a separate issue to gay marriage.

gmisk · 22-10-2020 12:17pm

I will be one year married on the 1st of November...a gay marriage...or garage if you prefer

Odd first year with one thing and another...

The only damage to society I can think of is the odd disagreement in B and Q over paint and tiles... no one should have to listen to that nonsense...I apologise to society.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-10-2020 12:57pm

xeresod wrote: »

Religion done right!

The best way to do religion is to not do it at all.

But yes the outlandishly pious types never mind the proselytisers are insufferable.

Limpy · 22-10-2020 12:59pm

What was the big deal about gays getting married in a church. Most people in Ireland view the church with distain due to sex abuse ect.

landofthetree · 22-10-2020 1:36pm

Limpy wrote: »

What was the big deal about gays getting married in a church. Most people in Ireland view the church with distain due to sex abuse ect.

Johnny and Mary hate the Catholic church. Dont really believe in God. They voted for abortion. But they get married in a church. :rolleyes:

Typical Irish hypocrisy.

Limpy · 22-10-2020 1:41pm

landofthetree wrote: »

Johnny and Mary hate the Catholic church. Dont really believe in God. They voted for abortion. But they get married in a church. :rolleyes:

Typical Irish hypocrisy.

I agree totally. That's why I am wondering why the big fight to be able get married in a church.

Bannasidhe · 22-10-2020 1:48pm

Limpy wrote: »

What was the big deal about gays getting married in a church. Most people in Ireland view the church with distain due to sex abuse ect.

I don't recall there being any serious call for same-sex marriages to be performed in churches tbh. That was a whole muddy the waters tactic.
My recollection is that many people were under the impression that becuase church weddings were/are the norm they assumed gay people wanted them, and were very surprised to learn that the religious aspect has zero legal status and is simply window dressing.
What people actually wanted was legal marriages with exactly the same rights/responsibilities as granted 'straights'.

The only people I saw making a big deal about gays getting married in a church were anti marriage equality.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-10-2020 1:50pm

This issue had nothing to do with churches at all, but they still had to stick their oar in as usual.

It was entirely about the civil law and civil marriage.

Last year only 51% of all marriages were church marriages.

robindch · 22-10-2020 1:51pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

Iona Institute denounce pope as a heretic in 3... 2... 1...

Strangely, Bishop Quinn seems to have stayed quiet on the topic - going by his twitter feed, he's mainly exercised about level five and why it's such a bad idea.

gmisk · 22-10-2020 1:53pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I don't recall there being any serious call for same-sex marriages to be performed in churches tbh. That was a whole muddy the waters tactic.
My recollection is that many people were under the impression that becuase church weddings were/are the norm they assumed gay people wanted them, and were very surprised to learn that the religious aspect has zero legal status and is simply window dressing.
What people actually wanted was legal marriages with exactly the same rights/responsibilities as granted 'straights'.

The only people I saw making a big deal about gays getting married in a church were anti marriage equality.

Yep spot on.

I got married in a registry office.
I know of about 4 other gay couples who got married in last few years, none in a church.

gmisk · 22-10-2020 1:56pm

robindch wrote: »

Strangely, Bishop Quinn seems to have stayed quiet on the topic - going by his twitter feed, he's mainly exercised about level five and why it's such a bad idea.

Churches closed down...no money in the plate...

Hotblack Desiato · 22-10-2020 1:57pm

The only church that would allow a same sex marriage afaik is the Universal Unitarians.

Hotblack Desiato · 22-10-2020 2:00pm

gmisk wrote: »

Yep spot on.

I got married in a registry office.
I know of about 4 other gay couples who got married in last few years, none in a church.

The experience of a lot of people with their heterosexual friends would be similar in recent years!

Last time I was invited to a church wedding was 12 years ago. I volunteered for baby minding duties so was only required to attend the reception, and the little one slept through it band and all

eviltwin · 22-10-2020 3:05pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

This issue had nothing to do with churches at all, but they still had to stick their oar in as usual.

It was entirely about the civil law and civil marriage.

Last year only 51% of all marriages were church marriages.

In Ireland?

That’s some drop!

lazygal · 22-10-2020 6:03pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I don't recall there being any serious call for same-sex marriages to be performed in churches tbh. That was a whole muddy the waters tactic.
My recollection is that many people were under the impression that becuase church weddings were/are the norm they assumed gay people wanted them, and were very surprised to learn that the religious aspect has zero legal status and is simply window dressing.
What people actually wanted was legal marriages with exactly the same rights/responsibilities as granted 'straights'.

The only people I saw making a big deal about gays getting married in a church were anti marriage equality.

Afaicr it was a recycled argument from the UK opponents of marriage equality as the state Church there is apparently obliged to marry anyone who asks them to. I might be muddled in this memory.
I would favour complete separation of church and state. Let everyone have the exact same state marriage ceremony and then have the wedding of their choice in a church or anywhere else with whoever they like. I wish the church here had followed through on the promise to get out of the marriage business.

Peregrinus · 23-10-2020 2:39am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

This issue had nothing to do with churches at all, but they still had to stick their oar in as usual.

It was entirely about the civil law and civil marriage.

Last year only 51% of all marriages were church marriages.

eviltwin wrote: »

In Ireland?

That’s some drop!

Broken down as between opposite-sex and same sex-marriages, it's

60.2% of opposite-sex marriages celebrated in religious ceremonies.

22.2% of same-sex marriages celebrated in religious ceremonies.

To be honest, the 22.2% figure surprised me. There are more religious same-sex ceremonies than humanist same-sex ceremonies (15.6%). The big players in the same-sex religious ceremony market are the Spiritualist Union and the Unitarians.

smacl · 23-10-2020 8:42am

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

The best way to do religion is to not do it at all.

I disagree, freedom of religious expression is a basic human right and while I might no share beliefs of religious people, I'd defend their right to hold and practice their beliefs. What I find objectionable is people trying to force their belief system on others, which is the core argument for secularism. As a secularist, I'd limit my concerns to undue influence exerted by the church on our society rather than what people choose to believe or the traditions they follow.

Last year only 51% of all marriages were church marriages.

Also surprised it is that high so soon. Speaks volumes for the decline of the church in this country and suggests we're possibly only a few generations away from no longer being a majority religious country. It seems the pope is making an effort at inclusiveness and to step away from the ingrained homophobia within Catholicism, no doubt in large part to stem the flow of people away the church. While no doubt he's making some progress, I reckon it will be limited and he'll be stymied by the majority of hardliners in the Vatican.

It would be interesting in comparing long term trends in Ireland with other Catholic majority countries in Europe.

Peregrinus · 23-10-2020 8:55am

smacl wrote: »

. . . It would be interesting in comparing long term trends in Ireland with other Catholic majority countries in Europe.

Thre's no doubt there has been a dramatic decline in the percentage of wedding celebrated in church. But I think the 51% figure may reflect that (a) few churches will celebrate same-sex marriages, and (b) the dominant church won't celebrate the remarriage of divorced persons. So the 49% not marrying in churches includes some people who don't want to, and some who might want to if they could but they can't.

So a useful second figure would be the percentage of opposite-sex first marriages that are celebrated in churches.

As for comparison with other countries, in several Catholic majority countries in Europe the system is that a civil wedding is mandatory, and a church wedding in addition is optional. I seem to recall that the number of Catholic church weddings in France is about 50% of the number of civil weddings. Add a few percentage points for people who have church weddings in non-Catholic churches, and the position may not look hugely different from Ireland.

Hotblack Desiato · 23-10-2020 11:19am

Peregrinus wrote: »

60.2% of opposite-sex marriages celebrated in religious ceremonies.

CSO count the spiritualists as religious marriages, it fits the legal definition but the legislation in this area is bizarre and discriminates against non-religious/spiritual celebrants.

Most people go to the spiritualists because the HSE don't do weekends and the humanists are usually booked out. The ceremony need not mention anything at all about religion, gods or spirits.

Taking out the spiritualists (they don't happen in a church after all) church weddings are 51% not 60% (of all marriages).

smacl wrote: »

I disagree, freedom of religious expression is a basic human right and while I might no share beliefs of religious people, I'd defend their right to hold and practice their beliefs.

And I have the freedom to consider those beliefs or practices strange or silly. I didn't say anything about denying anyone their rights.

lazygal · 23-10-2020 11:39am

The spiritualist union full the void for lots of people who want a bit more than the HSE ceremony and or can't get a humanist celebrant. We didn't want a religious ceremony in any way so ruled them out.

Hotblack Desiato · 23-10-2020 11:56am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Thre's no doubt there has been a dramatic decline in the percentage of wedding celebrated in church. But I think the 51% figure may reflect that (a) few churches will celebrate same-sex marriages, and (b) the dominant church won't celebrate the remarriage of divorced persons. So the 49% not marrying in churches includes some people who don't want to, and some who might want to if they could but they can't.

In 2019 there were 19,673 opposite sex marriages (96.85%)
640 same sex marriages (3.15%)
so we can't really blame teh gheys for skewing the figures of holy catholic Ireland.

So a useful second figure would be the percentage of opposite-sex first marriages that are celebrated in churches.

https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/mar/marriages2019/

Table 17.

Interestingly shows 121/8863 Catholic ceremonies involved at least one divorced person!

For marriages of two opposite-sex single people, 9898 church (57.9%), 7192 spiritual or non-religious (42.1%), total 17090

smacl · 23-10-2020 12:13pm

lazygal wrote: »

The spiritualist union full the void for lots of people who want a bit more than the HSE ceremony and or can't get a humanist celebrant. We didn't want a religious ceremony in any way so ruled them out.

We ended up with a civil celebrant and went with our own vows and whatnot in the registry office, we weren't mad into a humanist either.

smacl · 23-10-2020 12:23pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

And I have the freedom to consider those beliefs or practices strange or silly. I didn't say anything about denying anyone their rights.

Fair enough, I took your statement "The best way to do religion is to not do it at all." as a stated preference that other people should not practice their religion. To my mind that is the equivalent of suggesting atheists should just get over themselves and start believing in god. I have no interest in how people 'do religion' or 'don't do religion', just so long as they don't try to strong arm others into joining in.

Hotblack Desiato · 23-10-2020 1:30pm

That was purely my personal view, obviously others have differing views.

robindch · 06-11-2020 3:34pm

Some clarification on Pope Frank's backing for civil unions - essentially, yes, he supports gay civil unions to provide legal protection, but does not support gay marriage as that can only take place between one man and one woman.

https://www.facebook.com/franco.coppola.714/posts/3713375955360936
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/11/02/world/europe/pope-gay-civil-unions.html

New York Times wrote:

The Vatican has confirmed the pope’s remarks on gay couples deserving civil protections as it sent an explanatory note to bishops underlining that Francis’s comments did not mark a change in church doctrine.

The pope’s remarks made headlines last month after they appeared in the documentary “Francesco,” at its Oct. 21 premiere at the Rome Film Festival. In the documentary, he reiterated his view that gay people are “children of God,” and said: “What we have to create is a civil union law. That way they are legally covered.”

Last week, acknowledging the “various reactions and interpretations” provoked by the pope’s apparent break from his predecessors, the Vatican Secretary of State sent an explanatory note to its nuncios, or ambassadors, to be shared with bishops, “with the desire to favor an appropriate understanding of the words of the Holy Father.” [...]

Hotblack Desiato · 06-11-2020 4:51pm

So it's ok if a gay man marries a gay woman. A start

robindch · 08-12-2020 1:54am

NI same-sex couples hail 'wonderful day' as they marry in Belfast

https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2020/1207/1182853-ulster-same-sex-marriage/

RTE wrote:

Northern Ireland's first same-sex couple to transform their civil partnership into a marriage have said it is a wonderful day. Cara McCann and Amanda McGurk celebrated on the steps of Belfast City Hall. Couples in more than 1,300 same-sex civil partnerships can tie the knot in Northern Ireland from today. Ms McCann said: "We fought long and hard for the right to marry." She added: "We want to thank everyone who was part of this great movement for love and equality, and which has delivered this wonderful, positive change for our society."

It followed a lengthy campaign and legislative change at Westminster while Stormont powersharing was suspended. Stormont Finance Minister Conor Murphy said 32 couples planned to convert their civil partnerships this week.

robindch · 17-12-2020 8:03pm

Gay conversion therapy: Hundreds of religious leaders call for ban

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-55326461

BBC wrote:

More than 370 religious leaders from around the world are calling for a ban on conversion therapy - the attempt to change a person's sexual orientation or gender identity.

The signatories to the declaration represent all the world's major faiths and many are known LGBT advocates.

They include South African cleric Archbishop Desmond Tutu and former Chief Rabbi of Ireland David Rosen [...]

robindch · 02-03-2021 11:21pm

In some unexpected news, a court in Poland acquits three Polish women were were prosecuted for offending religious feelings by displaying posters depicting Holy Mary with a rainbow halo.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-56250453

Hotblack Desiato · 03-03-2021 3:40am

If the halo don't fit, you must acquit.

Hotblack Desiato · 27-04-2021 11:14pm

In other news, Arlene Foster could be geting the boot for not being homophobic enough.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-56902771

She abstained on a motion to ban "pray away the gay" in NI while most of the rest of the DUP voted against.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/arlene-foster-facing-leadership-challenge-as-discontent-mounts-in-dup-1.4549173

robindch · 28-04-2021 1:33pm

And if she does get booted, she may have to avoid fleeing to Switzerland:

Swiss to vote on same-sex marriage

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/swiss-to-vote-on-same-sex-marriage/ar-BB1g72IQ1

MSN wrote:

Switzerland will hold a referendum on legalising same-sex marriage, the government confirmed Tuesday.

Switzerland is one of the few remaining countries in Europe where same-sex marriage is not legal. The Swiss parliament approved a bill in December allowing same-sex couples to marry. However, under Switzerland's direct democracy system, new laws can be challenged and put to a referendum if more than 50,000 valid signatures are collected within 100 days. Opponents in the wealthy nation of 8.6 million people gathered more than 60,000 valid signatures, the government said in a statement.

The Swiss normally vote three to four times a year on a wide range of topics at the national, regional and local levels -- either laws challenged by petition or proposals that have gathered enough signatures. A date for the vote, described as the "referendum against 'marriage for all'," has not yet been set. The law's opponents, including members of the Swiss People's Party (SVP) -- the country's biggest -- and the marginal, similarly right-wing populist Federal Democratic Union, had said they would try to trigger a referendum.

The SVP said it was "intolerable to want to place marriage on an equal footing with any form of cohabitation". Same-sex couples can register a civil partnership in Switzerland. However, this status does not provide the same rights as marriage, including for obtaining citizenship and the joint adoption of children. The two chambers of parliament approved the bill in December after multiple rounds of debate spanning back to 2013.

The wording of the bill allows gays and lesbians to marry and for lesbians to access sperm donations.

Odhinn · 28-04-2021 8:11pm

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

In other news, Arlene Foster could be geting the boot for not being homophobic enough.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-56902771

She abstained on a motion to ban "pray away the gay" in NI while most of the rest of the DUP voted against.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/arlene-foster-facing-leadership-challenge-as-discontent-mounts-in-dup-1.4549173

not to mention

https://www.irishnews.com/news/localelection2019/2019/04/19/news/dup-woman-is-party-s-first-openly-gay-politician-1601209/

robindch · 12-05-2021 12:32pm

https://twitter.com/larryandpaul/status/1392379099704872962

robindch · 22-06-2021 9:06am

With the approval of the local parish priest, Ballyfermot parish council flies the Pride flag outside the local church. News of this reaches Dublin Diocese which tells them to take it back down again. Many locals are not impressed.

https://www.thejournal.ie/ballyfermot-church-pride-flag-response-solidarity-5472685-Jun2021/

TheJournal wrote:

BALLYFERMOT LOCALS ARE holding a solidarity vigil this week after a church received backlash online for flying an LGBT+ Pride flag on its grounds. The Ballyfermot Assumption Parish flew an Irish flag and a Pride flag outside its entrance last week as an effort to show that “all are welcome” in its church. After sharing photos of the flags on social media, large numbers posted thanks or appreciation, but others sent critical or abusive messages to the church because they believed the Pride flag was “anti-Catholic”. The church was asked by the Dublin diocese to take down the flag and was advised of a stance against flying flags on church grounds except for national flags on appropriate occasions.

Local community groups have planned a vigil on Friday to show solidarity with the church after the criticism it faced last week. People Before Profit Councillor for Ballyfermot-Drimnagh Hazel de Nortúin said the hateful responses to the Pride flag were “not a true reflection of the people of Ballyfermot”. “It wasn’t supported by local people, it was more of a case of people reacting outside the community and coming in,” de Nortúin told The Journal.

The Ballyfermot Anti-Racism Network, alongside youth services and the local GAA team, are planning to “come together to show solidarity, to show we will not be tolerating that sort of behaviour in the area” and celebrate “our pride and supporting those in the area who would have been affected by this”. “It’s not reflective of where we’re all at,” de Nortúin said. “I could see from the commentary online, there were a lot of young people that were very proud of their sexuality but were hurt by the nasty comments on social media,” she said.

Parish priest Father Adrian Egan told his parishioners at Sunday mass that flying the flag was part of the church’s efforts to make everyone in the community feel welcome and included. At a meeting last Monday, the parish’s pastoral council decided to fly an Irish flag and a Pride flag outside the church, he said in his homily. The pastoral council discussed that June is both the month of the Sacred Heart in the liturgical calendar and the “symbolism of the heart of Jesus that is inclusive of everyone”, and that “June has become a significant month for gay people. We are conscious that there are gay men and women who live in our parish and their families and they’ve often told us how hurt they’ve been maybe by the language the church has sometimes used in regard to them and how maybe they sometimes feel there’s no place for them here and they feel excluded,” Father Egan said in his homily.

The parish church aims to “work very hard to send out the message that this is a place of welcome for all” and to reach out to people who may not feel included. “We decided, we’ve two flag poles out there, we’ll put up two flags – the Irish flag and the Pride flag.” The church hung the Pride flag on Tuesday morning and removed it later in the week after receiving communication from the Dublin diocese.[...]

gmisk · 24-06-2021 9:33am

robindch wrote: »

With the approval of the local parish priest, Ballyfermot parish council flies the Pride flag outside the local church. News of this reaches Dublin Diocese which tells them to take it back down again. Many locals are not impressed.

https://www.thejournal.ie/ballyfermot-church-pride-flag-response-solidarity-5472685-Jun2021/

There is a vigil type thing this Friday at 630 in support of the priest.

Btw you are wrong about locals not being impressed. The vast majority seem to be extremely supportive of it, the 20 or so who protested at it were not from the area.

Five years of marriage equality. How has our society survived.

Comments