The truth about the Irish and the English

SharpshooterTom · 02-03-2021 12:56am

murpho999 wrote: »

Meet an Irish person living abroad, they'll most likely speak the local language.

I don't think that's true, I find Irish people almost as notoriously bad at learning languages as any other English speaking country in the world.

The numbers of Irish people living in Germany are fairly small, no more than 15,000. Similar numbers in France.

If Irish people move abroad they tend to move to US/Canada/Australia/New Zealand. If they move to the UK its usually temporary, not many Irish move permanently to the UK anymore.

pgj2015 · 02-03-2021 12:57am

murpho999 wrote: »

Is that what being English and Irish is to you? TV & Music.

To me that's only a part of culture but too many people nowadays thinks that's all that culture is.

I think Irish and English people definitely have different cultures. This relates to outlook on life, work ethics, attitude to class (for example look our different attitudes to Republicanism and Monarchy, attitude to other countries and also how they feel about their own country's place in the world.

Whilst Irish and English could share a joke and a pint I do find once you go deeper that our mindsets are very different and recent evidence of this can be seen with all the Brexit events over the last few years.

In my time I have never met any Irish person with the "Brexiteer" attitude to the world. I find Irish people enjoy foreign cultures and ideas. Meet an Irish person living abroad, they'll most likely speak the local language.

It's just a completely different outlook in my opinion.

No, it is not but I was just saying I wouldn't have a problem thinking of something to talk about with an English person.

we have a lot in common but I agree with a previous poster that we are in ways very different, we get treated a lot better in the likes of Spain but the locals don't have the same love for the English due to the way their lads act there.

There are also a lot of English people who seem to think we will leave the EU now just because they have lol.

02-03-2021 1:16am

murpho999 wrote: »

Don't see what my class is as I'm Irish nor do I have an English social circle.

My point about Brexit was also completely separate to class.

The point was that it's different to Irish people.

class isn't solely an English phenomena
What i mean is are you comparing Irish apples to English oranges?
I find English and Irish "working class" very similar- outlook, political, education, culinary. Ditto "middle class"

02-03-2021 1:21am

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

class isn't solely an English phenomena
What i mean is are you comparing Irish apples to English oranges?
I find English and Irish "working class" very similar- outlook, political, education, culinary. Ditto "middle class"

Culinary is right. The rest not so much.

Hamachi · 02-03-2021 1:32am

SharpshooterTom wrote: »

The numbers of Irish people living in Germany are fairly small, no more than 15,000. Similar numbers in France.

Can’t speak for France, but that number of 15K Irish in Germany seems pretty low. I lived there for a long time and I believe it’s higher. Perhaps 15K are officially registered (Anmeldung), but I’d guess that the ‘unofficial’ count is twice that.

When I lived in Munich, I heard a figure of 10K Irish in the city, bandied about a lot. All I know is that I encountered Irish people fairly often in my daily life there. In terms of language ability, it was a mixed bag. The long term Irish residents (> 5 years) were almost always fluent in German and well integrated. The newer arrivals ranged from superb German from university (a minority) to marching up to locals, expecting them to speak English. Pretty much the same as other nationalities, except the Dutch and Scandinavians, who almost universally spoke decent German.

Achebe · 02-03-2021 1:34am

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

England is the bigger country and therefore is under no obligation to learn our history nor care about it and why should they.

Australia doesn't care about NZ either but NZ has lots of opinions on them.

It's a weakness on our part

But a lot of it is their history too.

Nqp15hhu · 02-03-2021 1:40am

The Irish are more like the Scots (especially the Northern Irish) than the English. As someone whom actually lived in England for a few years, I found that they made a point of showing ignorance on the island or pretending not to know much about it so as to distance themselves. I noticed that they would stick within their English groups at University and didn't mix with outsiders (that includes Scots/Northern Irish/Welsh).

There are cultural clashes with the reservedness and the Irish approach of showing emotions and being honest/direct. I think its more of a one sided relationship.

Nqp15hhu · 02-03-2021 1:43am

Marcusm wrote: »

I’d go so far as to say many in the Republic would get on better with the perfidious English than the (odd and dogy) Norners.

Thanks, what a nice thing to say.

NeuralNetwork · 02-03-2021 1:44am

We can be that old divorced couple who had a really screwed marriage, still have lawyers dealing with a dispute over property and have an absolutely terrible history but who, once in a while, bump into each other at a party, get drunk, and somehow end up in bed.

Nqp15hhu · 02-03-2021 1:45am

simongurnick wrote: »

I live in Canada and work for one of the banks here. Was at this big conference once and noticed one of the fellas at our table was an English lad. Once the first coffee break hit, everyone is milling around talking awkwardly or trying to network.
I make a bee line for the English lad with one thought in my mind, a good chat about the footie. After exchanging a few pleasantries and the usual "hows the weather" chit chat, I throw in my opener. "So what football team do you support?"
Yer man answers " I don't really watch football".
My face dropped and I don't even think I registered what he said. I was like, "sorry, what??". He repeats it and I just go "oh, right", stare off in to the distance for a few seconds, then make my excuses and leave.
Still haven't got over it.

That's quite judgemental. Why would you be shocked that a man wouldn't be in to football?

Nqp15hhu · 02-03-2021 1:47am

Brian? wrote: »

I find I gravitate more towards the Scots or Welsh.

A lot of English people I meet are blindly ignorant. The amount of times I've heard "you know back in the UK" followed by something we should have in common. They appear stunned when I point out I'm not from the UK. The Scots or Welsh never make that mistake, despite being products of the same Education system.

I've met plenty of English people I liked, but even then they come out with some whoppers sometimes.

For some reason I don't understand I make a lot of friends from Latin America. I find people from Mexico, Chile, Bolivia and Argentina very easy to get along with.

I agree with you. I have come across this myself. Plenty of English proudly show how ignorant they are, almost as a superiority complex.

Can remember them asking me stupid questions such as 'do you have TESCO's there?, what about Blue peter?'. Cringe.

tdf7187 · 02-03-2021 1:49am

jetsonx wrote: »

Anybody foreigner reading internet forums would probably think that the Irish and English can't stand each other.

However, like a lot of things in life, what happens on the internet and what happens in real life is totally different.

When the Irish are in a room full of Europeans, the Irish and the English gravitate towards each other paperclips to a magnet. Over, the years I've seen this countless times in workplaces, conferences and other events. The fact is the Irish don't generally gravitate towards Sylvia from Stuttgart or Kurt from Klagenfurt. After just a few minutes, they will be talking to Nigel and Sally from Slough. And a few weeks ago, the great Tommy Gorman mentioned this phenomenon as well from this his time in Brussels. The Irish contingent working for the EU were not hanging out with other Eurofolk but they were hanging out with Brits.

So despite all the negative talk about Brexit, I think it finally time for the Irish to admit that culturally we are much closer to Britain than any other country in Euroland and they might actually like each other.

Brexit is a disaster. The fact that it is a disaster has nothing got to do with the fact that, these days, the Irish and English mostly get along pretty well.

tdf7187 · 02-03-2021 1:50am

jmlad2020 wrote: »

This is a silly thread. The UK is our closest neighbour...

The continent may as well be Antarctica to us

Speak for yourself.

NeuralNetwork · 02-03-2021 1:51am

To be honest though I find if I’m in a room full of Americans & there’s a European group, I’m more likely to end up at that table.

I don’t think you can generalise about Europe, but I feel right at home in a lot of places on the continent.

Just depends what languages you speak and who you’re talking to.

I’d have probably better craic at the French or Spanish table than I would at a lot of US ones.

I’m speaking from experience at big events and conferences.

Mullaghteelin · 02-03-2021 2:01am

Nqp15hhu wrote: »

That's quite judgemental. Why would you be shocked that a man wouldn't be in to football?

I sympathize with that English guy. In fairness, Ive rarely been asked what football team I support since secondary school. If someone asked me that now il'd laugh in their face!

gozunda · 02-03-2021 2:02am

The truth about the Irish and the English

We've had approx 800 years to get used to them and them to us. There’s been a few bumps on that road

Have extended family who live there and find it a mixed experience. Everything from how bitchy they've found many English women to be towards their counterparts - all the way to cultural oddities like not liking a decent head on a pint of beer (southern counties) ..

Its a different country I reckon....

gormdubhgorm · 02-03-2021 2:06am

murpho999 wrote: »

I never said there was no similarities or overlap but that we are different.
We still have our own culture of language, sport, music, TV etc that is totally Irish.
Other stuff like architecture and jurisprudence is an outcome of hundreds of years of colonialism.

How are we different though? There is damn all difference take an Irish person and an English person from the same average background and the difference is negligible at best. Irish people like to pretend they are different from the English when it suits. But in reality Irish people have long lost what has made them different from the English. Apparent to anyone from any other country from the outside looking in.

Massive and inaccurate generalisations there but I simply refuse to accept that a person's culture, identity and outlook on life is formed by what tabloid they read or soap they watch especially as so many people do neither. I woudn't really associate Oasis or The Beatles with Ireland, they're very much British.

More inaccurate generalisations that's really not worth arguing about

This whole thread and discussion is a discussion of a generalisation just because you do not like the premise does not mean you should not discuss it.

Why is that? It's down to language. They're not native English speakers and would not immediately know the difference.
However, I've had it loads of times in Europe that attitude changes when they find out you're Irish and not English.

True, I will give you the different attitudes bit when some foreigners find out you are not English. But the truth is a country loses a country and a people tremendous amount when it loses its language. The Jews and the Hungarians revived thiers a glue that kept them together.

Ireland and England's glue is the English language and English cluture. An Irish person has far more in common with an Englishman. Then they would with a German, Frenchman or Spaniard. Those countries are completely culturally different to Ireland. We do not speak the same language nor do we have the same day to day culture.

Look at how Irish football fans were received by locals and police in Poland an France for Euro 12 & 16 and compare that to the trouble with English fans. Completely different mindsets.

Also people who have travelled here would know the difference.

If this is one of your main tenets of what makes an Irish person different from an English person you are really scraping the barrel in my opinion. By its very nature many Irish soccer supporters do not follow their own domestic league and look to England for their 'teams'. The fact there are less Irish soccer hooligans than England is because of:

1) Numbers
2) Many Irish scocer fans 'main' sports are other sports - plus those Irish who support English clubs only tend to be bandwagoners so it is not a fervent 'firm' like Millwall etc
3) In the LOI there are some fans in Shamrock Rovers and Bohs have ultras and firms etc. Same mindset

It is noticeable how you did not compare Irish Rugby fans and English rugby fans. Where is the difference there?

I also fail to see how Sky Sports, a very recent phenomenon, defines culture.

You only have to go to any pub on the weekend to see how it does. People saying 'we' for clubs who were winning when they were 10.

Wrong again. Ireland joined on the very same day as the UK along with Denmark on 01/01/73 and it's brought about massive changes.

This even backs my point up even more I wrongly assumed it was a year later. If it was the same day. It just shows how wedded the so called Irish Republic is to the UK.

Ireland let go of the shirt tails of Britain and forged its own path with an open and enthusiastic view of Europe and the world whilst the UK could not accept its lesser European position and missed its more influential past position and ultimately gone the path of Brexit.
For me Brexit is a massive event that really highlights the different mentalities of Britain and Ireland.

OK there is a slight argument to this. But the fact is in the EU the UK was one of the major nations with fair more voting rights than a smaller country like Ireland. Plus the UK is a far larger nation and they would not depend on the EU like Ireland do.
None of which actually explains the difference between an Irishman and an Englishman by the way.

You will also notice that Ireland was very enthusiastic about the EU because for many years they were a net recipient. Now they are a net contributor.
One of the main parties in Ireland SF used to be strongly Eurosceptic in the 90's. But seemed to do a 180 in an effort to seem less British??

Seriously. That's a result of language, geography and access. Still does not make us the same.
If not UK why is it USA or Australia? Anything to do with the language? Plenty of Irish in Europe too you'll find.

Not as much as England or English speaking countries. Overtime the Irish have become more like the English. I am talking about those from the same socio-economic background no difference. The politics of Brexit and the EU is merely a smoke screen. One last pretense at Ireland pretending it is not like England. Where Ireland for once gets to look down on the English.

How many English bands, films, books, comedy etc are in your own home. Or have you watched. English culture is all pervasive in Ireland and is lapped up wholeheartedly by Irish people.

Irishness very much exists and has done for a long time. Why do you think that Ireland never fully accepted British rule and became one of the first colonies to gain independence?

Ireland maintained the British Civil Service long after independence. Failed to revive Irish to any meaningful level. Aped the British constantly in currency and so on. It was an indepence in the loosest terms. Ireland is still wedded to Britain economically even though Britain has left the EU.

I doubt you would even be able to define Irishness - barring a few soccer fans.
Ireland is a country who's culture and language closely mirrors England.

Pubs, tabloids, sports, shops etc.

It is just unpalatable for Irish people to think that after nearly a century of independence. The only sense of Irishness you can seem to come up with is Irish soccer fans.
There's always been a different attitude here and we've had our own culture, based on more than newspapers and soaps for centuries.

Why are we independent? Why are we in the EU? Why do we have the EURO?
Why are we not members of the commonwealth?

It is not a true independence in my view. As culturally Ireland is still wedded to Britain. Language and day to day culture in ordinary life.

As I've said, there are similarities but there also stark differences too. Bound to be similarities as we're neighbours that was also colonised for hundreds of years. But to see that Irishness is a fallacy or that we were more alike than different is totally wrong in my opinion.

I just don't see these stark differences at all. There are much more similarities between Ireland and English people than there are differences.

EU/Brexit is a political difference. Culturally an Irishman and an Englishman are very similar. I would argue more similar than even An American and and Irish person.

Put an Irish person in a room with French, Spanish, Germans and there would not be the same bond between an Irish person and and English one.

pgj2015 · 02-03-2021 2:41am

we have a bit in common but we definitely have our own unique culture and ways that are very different.

There is a lot more than our soccer fans that is different.

The GAA, you would sell out croke park on all Ireland day 10 times over. 80,000 people all paying 100 euro for a ticket, some pay more. compare that to the FAI cup final, lucky to have 30,000 people in the Aviva and that is with 5 euro tickets for pensioners and free tickets for kids. we didn't ditch the GAA because the English don't play it.

Irish trad music and Irish dancing, that is very much Irish and our own. it has been around for hundreds of years and is going strong.

we do death in a very different way. wakes, funerals all very different to the English.

we have our own cuisine.

we aren't as tight with money.

we are better at small talk, more open and friendly with strangers.

SharpshooterTom · 02-03-2021 3:41am

Can I also just add, it also depends on what type of Englishman people are talking about.

Working class people from Liverpool or Manchester are very different from people from Kent or Norfolk. And I think Irish people would have much more in common with the former than the latter. England's a country of 55 million+ after all, its not homogenous.

Brian? · 02-03-2021 8:10am

jmlad2020 wrote: »

This is a silly thread. The UK is our closest neighbour...

The continent may as well be Antarctica to us

The thread isn't about people from the UK, it's about people from England specifically.

02-03-2021 9:16am

Curse These Metal Hands wrote: »

Having said that, when I was in France for the Euros the English fans were unbearable, I lost count of how many times a slur was shouted at me when wearing my Ireland jersey. The French hated them.

The England fans that follow England to away matches are a very unique breed. There are about 40% who are genuine football fans who are there to see the game, have a sing song and go home. Then there are the others. They are a bunch of weak individuals that try to find strength by wrapping themselves in the flag and being part of a mob. For 30 years they've been going to European cities, congregating in public squares, intimidating innocent passers by, smashing windows, pubs and cars, generally provoking and looking for trouble.

I very much enjoyed what those 30 Russian lads did to them in Marseillle. Payback's a b*tch.

02-03-2021 10:34am

SharpshooterTom wrote: »

Can I also just add, it also depends on what type of Englishman people are talking about.

Working class people from Liverpool or Manchester are very different from people from Kent or Norfolk. And I think Irish people would have much more in common with the former than the latter. England's a country of 55 million+ after all, its not homogenous.

I mean that assumes the Irish are all working class. The English somewhat believe that but should we?

I think people are guessing who they’d get along with to be honest.

Feisar · 02-03-2021 11:48am

pgj2015 wrote: »

we have our own cuisine.

Huh?

Mad_maxx · 02-03-2021 1:27pm

the english are ok for the most part ( scousers aside ) , can be a tad arrogant of course , prefer them to americans by a distance who ive always found very dull people , the english have a good sense of humour

Mad_maxx · 02-03-2021 1:29pm

pgj2015 wrote: »

we have a bit in common but we definitely have our own unique culture and ways that are very different.

There is a lot more than our soccer fans that is different.

The GAA, you would sell out croke park on all Ireland day 10 times over. 80,000 people all paying 100 euro for a ticket, some pay more. compare that to the FAI cup final, lucky to have 30,000 people in the Aviva and that is with 5 euro tickets for pensioners and free tickets for kids. we didn't ditch the GAA because the English don't play it.

Irish trad music and Irish dancing, that is very much Irish and our own. it has been around for hundreds of years and is going strong.

we do death in a very different way. wakes, funerals all very different to the English.

we have our own cuisine.

we aren't as tight with money.

we are better at small talk, more open and friendly with strangers.

i prefer how the english do death , having people who ive never spoken to and often dont like , attend a close relatives funeral seems both pointless and annoying

dublin49 · 02-03-2021 2:23pm

the big cultural difference as stated above is the GAA.The Trad Music and Irish language speakers are niche groups and are far out numbered by those that take their music & entertainment predominantly from the UK.The GAA is the real point of difference especially in Rural areas and it is probably almost unique anywhere ,maybe the Kiwis love of Rugby is similiar ,but GAA is so much more than just a run of the mill sporting organization,its hard to define but with the reduced influence of the Church to me it is the beating heart of this country.I will probably be told that there are more soccer players in this country but soccer clubs are rarely prominent in the social architecture of our society,having said that I think the above applies much less so in Dublin .

Edgware · 02-03-2021 2:28pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

i prefer how the english do death , having people who ive never spoken to and often dont like , attend a close relatives funeral seems both pointless and annoying

And then they go home and say " who was that grumpy old **** at the funeral? "

WesternZulu · 02-03-2021 2:31pm

One main difference I have found is that Irish people have a more global outlook whereas English people focus on domestic issues and don't care for much else. Brexit is a direct result of this.

This is probably due to the fact Irish people are far more predisposed to emigrate if needed as it's very much part and parcel of our history. The English not so much.

Goodshape · 02-03-2021 2:33pm

jetsonx wrote: »

When the Irish are in a room full of Europeans, the Irish and the English gravitate towards each other paperclips to a magnet.

Sure you'd almost think we share a common language or something.

jm08 · 02-03-2021 2:47pm

Goodshape wrote: »

Sure you'd almost think we share a common language or something.

And we are poor at languages. Culturally, we have a lot more in common with countries that are also culturally roman catholic (mostly southern Germany and southern Europe).

The truth about the Irish and the English

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