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The truth about the Irish and the English
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Is that what being English and Irish is to you? TV & Music.
To me that's only a part of culture but too many people nowadays thinks that's all that culture is.
I think Irish and English people definitely have different cultures. This relates to outlook on life, work ethics, attitude to class (for example look our different attitudes to Republicanism and Monarchy, attitude to other countries and also how they feel about their own country's place in the world.
Whilst Irish and English could share a joke and a pint I do find once you go deeper that our mindsets are very different and recent evidence of this can be seen with all the Brexit events over the last few years.
In my time I have never met any Irish person with the "Brexiteer" attitude to the world. I find Irish people enjoy foreign cultures and ideas. Meet an Irish person living abroad, they'll most likely speak the local language.
It's just a completely different outlook in my opinion.
I disagree completely look a bit deeper and there is a massive overlap between the Irish and the English.
Language, sport, tv, culture, jurisprudence, civil service structure, architecture, comedy.
Take your average working class English person and your average working class Irish person and they are one and the same. They read the same tabloids and watch the same soaps and sports. Also there is the massive overlap between those in England who claim Irish heritage Oasis, The Beatles and the like.
The slight difference is that many Irish working class (especially in Dublin) delude themselves into pretending they are republican UI types. When the reality is many have not spoken a word of Irish since school at best. They try and make themselves sound more Irish than they really are, Going on about a UI etc it has zero effect in their day to day lives.
Ask a German, Spaniard or French person to tell the difference between an average Irish person and English person. They would struggle to:
A) See any difference - drinking culture etc pubs SKY SPORTS
Be able to tell you any difference.
As for your point on Brexit the UK was only ever lukewarm on the EU at best and really only joined when those in favour mobilised at the right time. Ireland only joined the EU after the UK. That is how tied to the UK Ireland is and was.
Plus where do Irish people go to get work if it is not in the USA or Australia? First port of call they go to England and have done for decades.
Where do musicians and entertainers, sports people go to make it big? England,
Plus words in the Irish language have been borrowed from English. And reinvented and Gaelicised. Such as 'Craic' which was invented in the 1950's 1960's. Yep, craic is an invention a fabricated 'Irish' word.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craic
https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/is-craic-a-fake-irish-word
A lot of Irish people's view of modern Irishness was only invented in the 19th century. 'Irishness' which is now is just a myth built increasingly on sand, in my opinion.
The overlap between what is Irish/English and who is Irish or English, runs deeper than people care to admit. What's the craic with that?Guff about stuff, and stuff about guff.
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gormdubhgorm wrote: »I disagree completely look a bit deeper and there is a massive overlap between the Irish and the English.
Language, sport, tv, culture, jurisprudence, civil service structure, architecture.
Take your average working class English person and your average working class Irish person and they are one and the same. They read the same tabloids and watch the same soaps and sports. Also there is the massive overlap between those in England who claim Irish heritage Oasis, The Beatles and the like.
The slight difference is that many Irish working class (especially in Dublin) delude themselves into pretending they are republican UI types. When the reality is many have not spoken a word of Irish since school at best. They try and make themselves sound more Irish than they really are, Going on about a UI etc it has zero effect in their day to day lives.
Ask a German, Spaniard or French person to tell the difference between an average Irish person and English person. They would struggle to:
A) See any difference - drinking culture etc pubs SKY SPORTS Be able to tell you any difference.
As for your point on Brexit the UK was only ever lukewarm on the EU at best and really only joined when those in favour mobilised at the right time. Ireland only joined the EU after the UK. That is how tied to the UK Ireland is and was.
Plus where do Irish people go to get work if it is not in the USA or Australia. They go to England and have done for decades.
Where do musicians and entertainers, sports people go to make it big? England,
Plus words in the Irish language have been borrowed from English. And reinvented and Gaelicised. Such as 'Craic' which was invented in the 1960's. Yep, craic is an invention a fabricated 'Irish' word.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craic
A lot of Irish people's view of modern Irishness was only invented in the 19th century. 'Irishness' which is now is just a myth built increasingly on sand, in my opinion.
The overlap between what is Irish/English and who is Irish or English, runs deeper than people care to admit.
One similarity is that their right wingers are pro British and our right wingers are pro British.0 -
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gormdubhgorm wrote: »I disagree completely look a bit deeper and there is a massive overlap between the Irish and the English.
Language, sport, tv, culture, jurisprudence, civil service structure, architecture, comedy.
I never said there was no similarities or overlap but that we are different.
We still have our own culture of language, sport, music, TV etc that is totally Irish.
Other stuff like architecture and jurisprudence is an outcome of hundreds of years of colonialism.Take your average working class English person and your average working class Irish person and they are one and the same. They read the same tabloids and watch the same soaps and sports. Also there is the massive overlap between those in England who claim Irish heritage Oasis, The Beatles and the like.
Massive and inaccurate generalisations there but I simply refuse to accept that a person's culture, identity and outlook on life is formed by what tabloid they read or soap they watch especially as so many people do neither. I woudn't really associate Oasis or The Beatles with Ireland, they're very much British.The slight difference is that many Irish working class (especially in Dublin) delude themselves into pretending they are republican UI types. When the reality is many have not spoken a word of Irish since school at best. They try and make themselves sound more Irish than they really are, Going on about a UI etc it has zero effect in their day to day lives.
More inaccurate generalisations that's really not worth arguing aboutAsk a German, Spaniard or French person to tell the difference between an average Irish person and English person. They would struggle to:
A) See any difference - drinking culture etc pubs SKY SPORTS Be able to tell you any difference.
Why is that? It's down to language. They're not native English speakers and would not immediately know the difference.
However, I've had it loads of times in Europe that attitude changes when they find out you're Irish and not English.
Look at how Irish football fans were received by locals and police in Poland an France for Euro 12 & 16 and compare that to the trouble with English fans. Completely different mindsets.
Also people who have travelled here would know the difference.
I also fail to see how Sky Sports, a very recent phenomenon, defines culture.As for your point on Brexit the UK was only ever lukewarm on the EU at best and really only joined when those in favour mobilised at the right time. Ireland only joined the EU after the UK. That is how tied to the UK Ireland is and was.
Wrong again. Ireland joined on the very same day as the UK along with Denmark on 01/01/73 and it's brought about massive changes. Ireland let go of the shirt tails of Britain and forged its own path with an open and enthusiastic view of Europe and the world whilst the UK could not accept its lesser European position and missed its more influential past position and ultimately gone the path of Brexit.
For me Brexit is a massive event that really highlights the different mentalities of Britain and Ireland.Plus where do Irish people go to get work if it is not in the USA or Australia? First port of call they go to England and have done for decades.
Where do musicians and entertainers, sports people go to make it big? England
Seriously. That's a result of language, geography and access. Still does not make us the same.
If not UK why is it USA or Australia? Anything to do with the language? Plenty of Irish in Europe too you'll find.Plus words in the Irish language have been borrowed from English. And reinvented and Gaelicised. Such as 'Craic' which was invented in the 1950's 1960's. Yep, craic is an invention a fabricated 'Irish' word.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craic
https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/history/is-craic-a-fake-irish-word
So what? Landscape comes from Dutch. People say cojones, schadenfreude etc.A lot of Irish people's view of modern Irishness was only invented in the 19th century. 'Irishness' which is now is just a myth built increasingly on sand, in my opinion.
Irishness very much exists and has done for a long time. Why do you think that Ireland never fully accepted British rule and became one of the first colonies to gain independence?
There's always been a different attitude here and we've had our own culture, based on more than newspapers and soaps for centuries.
Why are we independent? Why are we in the EU? Why do we have the EURO?
Why are we not members of the commonwealth?The overlap between what is Irish/English and who is Irish or English, runs deeper than people care to admit. What's the craic with that?
As I've said, there are similarities but there also stark differences too. Bound to be similarities as we're neighbours that was also colonised for hundreds of years. But to see that Irishness is a fallacy or that we were more alike than different is totally wrong in my opinion.0 -
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