The way forward for LC2021

rainbowtrout · 26-02-2021 11:43AM

amacca wrote: »

Then there will be the ones strategically absenting themselves from classes and tests especially believing their PG is in the healthiest state now and if they do tests etc it will drag it down.

All of the above, and there will be ones that know whether they sit any classes tests or not before the 14th May that the teacher will have to give them a predicted grade one way or another. They also know that the teacher is not going to fail the whole class, for once in their lives the "they can't fail us all" line probably rings true, and if they don't need it for points, then it's not a big deal to not to turn up to OL Irish etc, if they only need an O6 in it and have been performing above that all along.

km79 · 26-02-2021 12:16PM

The department and SEC will be delighted with those percentages
Gets them out of a few holes

deiseindublin · 26-02-2021 02:43PM

PoolDude wrote: »

14% of students to sit all papers, 33% to take all AG’s and just over 50% to take a mix of both according to an article in the Indo. Wonder will it change with the news there will be more choice on the papers - doubt it, it might just change the number of papers taken by those planning to take a mix. I’ve said before I see it as two chances to get a good grade v choice and think this change reenforces that

You'd wonder how indicative those figures are. I'd see LCA AGs only being 95%+, which will bring up the regular LC averages.

Most students don't have a clue yet what they're doing, and won't decide for sure until after subject specific guidelines come out in a month's time.

I was talking to a parent of a local child yesterday who told me their #1 CAO choice is Arts, and they can get this by getting 6 x H6s. I can see why the likes of them wouldn't bother their backside to sit the papers. Just keep the head down for a few weeks and do a maximum of 18 class tests over 6 subjects. A nice position to be in.

French Toast · 26-02-2021 03:25PM

Received confirmation today that our mocks won't be happening. Not surprised with that.

There's about 12 weeks left until the end of May and it feels as though we're headed in to what will be one of the greatest shít-shows of all time.

rainbowtrout · 26-02-2021 05:04PM

French Toast wrote: »

Received confirmation today that our mocks won't be happening. Not surprised with that.

There's about 12 weeks left until the end of May and it feels as though we're headed in to what will be one of the greatest shít-shows of all time.

It’s entirely possible that since the start of January the Leaving Cert has generated more news articles than any other aspect of covid. It’s nuts when you think about it.

Wombatman · 26-02-2021 06:19PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It’s entirely possible that since the start of January the Leaving Cert has generated more news articles than any other aspect of covid. It’s nuts when you think about it.

Massive rite of passage. Has a special place in the Irish psyche for better or worse. Plenty of adults still have dreams\nightmares about doing theirs, years after the event.

noplacehere · 26-02-2021 06:24PM

Our mocks cancelled too. We are were told the predictive grades assessments are compulsory for students. Is that correct? I was suprised

r93kaey5p2izun · 26-02-2021 06:34PM

My cousin's mocks are cancelled too. He is raging! And apparently they won't be allowed to even hold any optional after school exams - that seems to be a decision from the ETB going by the wording of the principals message to them. He will need to sit the exams and is so annoyed.

Random sample · 26-02-2021 06:45PM

noplacehere wrote: »

Our mocks cancelled too. We are were told the predictive grades assessments are compulsory for students. Is that correct? I was suprised

Yes. In case they are sick for the actual exam. There will be no contingency exam this year.

noplacehere · 26-02-2021 07:04PM

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

My cousin's mocks are cancelled too. He is raging! And apparently they won't be allowed to even hold any optional after school exams - that seems to be a decision from the ETB going by the wording of the principals message to them. He will need to sit the exams and is so annoyed.

Our ETB is saying they can be facilitated to take a mock at home and have it externally assessed but the school are not to be given that grade or paper

noplacehere · 26-02-2021 07:05PM

Random sample wrote: »

Yes. In case they are sick for the actual exam. There will be no contingency exam this year.

No I meant the three tests. We were told that there would be consequences for students who don’t sit them, they can be penalised grade wise?

I get that they all need a predictive grade regardless

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 26-02-2021 07:17PM

noplacehere wrote: »

No I meant the three tests. We were told that there would be consequences for students who don’t sit them, they can be penalised grade wise?

I get that they all need a predictive grade regardless

Can't see how that could be imposed on what I've read. The guidance suggests students get no more than 3 tests per subject (still 18-21 tests). However, a teacher is free to give no tests if they wish. Not set in stone

coillsaille · 26-02-2021 07:30PM

The wording in the guidelines about the three assessments in no way indicates that they must be done, it just says any assessments should be capped at that.
Technically, going by the guidelines, a teacher could decide they're satisfied with the data they have already accumulated to base the estimated grades and don't require any further assessment.
(Not many in that boat of course.)

r93kaey5p2izun · 26-02-2021 07:42PM

coillsaille wrote: »

Technically, going by the guidelines, a teacher could decide they're satisfied with the data they have already accumulated to base the estimated grades and don't require any further assessment.

I agree that the guide suggests the assessments are a possibility but not required, given the use of "the teacher may..." I don't think it's right for any school or management body to impose this as a requirement on teachers.

But I don't think a teacher could consider they have enough data already, unless they are finished the course completely, which is unlikely. Since the guide states:

"Learning and outcomes from March until 14 May will also be taken in to account.",

I think any material covered from now on will have to be assessed in some form and considered when grading. The learning and outcomes WILL be taken into account - I don't see any option for not including data (of some form) from now to May unless no learning or outcomes take place.

Random sample · 26-02-2021 07:49PM

noplacehere wrote: »

No I meant the three tests. We were told that there would be consequences for students who don’t sit them, they can be penalised grade wise?

I get that they all need a predictive grade regardless

Oh I get you.

In fairness, if students don’t sit the three assessments from now to May, it would be difficult for them to demonstrate any level of ability in your subject.

noplacehere · 26-02-2021 08:09PM

Random sample wrote: »

Oh I get you.

In fairness, if students don’t sit the three assessments from now to May, it would be difficult for them to demonstrate any level of ability in your subject.

But if they already have summer and Christmas tests in and they are happy with what they think they’ll get based on that? Last time around we had to give grades for students who had never sat a single assessment. I wonder if that will be the case here. Because there’s no ‘algorithm’ we need to use to calculate these. I just doubt we can ‘insist’ that students take them. It feels like that’s just to try and keep them in school

coillsaille · 26-02-2021 08:31PM

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

But I don't think a teacher could consider they have enough data already, unless they are finished the course completely, which is unlikely.

I would agree it's unlikely, highly unlikely in any other year. But the adjustments to the exam papers have resulted in less course material to cover in some subjects.

Random sample · 26-02-2021 08:58PM

noplacehere wrote: »

But if they already have summer and Christmas tests in and they are happy with what they think they’ll get based on that? Last time around we had to give grades for students who had never sat a single assessment. I wonder if that will be the case here. Because there’s no ‘algorithm’ we need to use to calculate these. I just doubt we can ‘insist’ that students take them. It feels like that’s just to try and keep them in school

I wouldn’t expect a student who does nothing from March to May of 6th year likely to get a good grade regardless of the result they got in Christmas of 5th year.

Wombatman · 26-02-2021 10:52PM

Random sample wrote: »

I wouldn’t expect a student who does nothing from March to May of 6th year likely to get a good grade regardless of the result they got in Christmas of 5th year.

I don't think attendance can be used as a parameter, so I guess you have to work with what you already had up until the no show?

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 26-02-2021 11:03PM

Wombatman wrote: »

I don't think attendance can be used as a parameter, so I guess you have to work with what you already had up until the no show?

Anyone staying at home due to health concerns, or any reason at the moment couldn't be penalised.

The criteria is- in a regular year, how wud they have done.

Use existing data, professional opinion and/or up to 3 class tests.

Random sample · 26-02-2021 11:31PM

Wombatman wrote: »

I don't think attendance can be used as a parameter, so I guess you have to work with what you already had up until the no show?

Attendance and work aren’t the same thing. I have a student who has worked at home all year, but I have data on him because he has submitted work to me, and I presume will continue to do so. A student who is refusing to do class tests is a different story.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 26-02-2021 11:51PM

Random sample wrote: »

A student who is refusing to do class tests is a different story.

A student might not want to be screwing up their study for the actual LC to be doing class tests.

Random sample · 26-02-2021 11:58PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

A student might not want to be screwing up their study for the actual LC to be doing class tests.

Thankfully I’ve never come across one of them.

Bobtheman · 27-02-2021 01:32PM

Unless somebody goes through your paperwork and asks to see the actual essays with grades- teachers can do what they like. Those don't tie yourself up in knots. You didn't create the farce.

Treppen · 27-02-2021 02:32PM

Bobtheman wrote: »

Unless somebody goes through your paperwork and asks to see the actual essays with grades- teachers can do what they like. Those don't tie yourself up in knots. You didn't create the farce.

True that, the reliance is on "professional judgement", not an average or some sort of calculation of any grades you kept in your notes.

Mardy Bum · 27-02-2021 03:30PM

Treppen wrote: »

True that, the reliance is on "professional judgement", not an average or some sort of calculation of any grades you kept in your notes.

In other words, opinion. It makes the whole idea of objective teacher led assessment as utterly baseless and lacking reliability and validity but those outside of education and some inside it are totally oblivious to this. This is the equivalent of handing out driving licenses but it differs in that the more you hand out the more your reputation improves (20% of students got over 500 points).

Rosita · 27-02-2021 03:50PM

Bobtheman wrote: »

Unless somebody goes through your paperwork and asks to see the actual essays with grades- teachers can do what they like. Those don't tie yourself up in knots. You didn't create the farce.

Lot to be said for this. I have a guy in my class who shows up maybe once a week but did a decent exam in November which was a significant length. I would say he would pass the LC exam (a language) handily enough if he never came back because of his basics are decently good. There are others there every day who wouldn't do as well.

I can give all the exams I like and it won't change how I think they will do in the exam. It's hard to have evidence for a guy who's not there to do the exam but it doesn't change the fact that in my professional judgement he would pass.

Now if someone wants to go through my paperwork they will have to explain to me how I arrive at an "Accredited Grade" to which the student is entitled.

Most teachers in experience from talking to them would have a very good idea how a student will do. They should now back themselves in that regard and not be overly concerned with compiling a dossier on every student to defend a judgment that they are uniquely place to make.

carr62 · 27-02-2021 04:07PM

By any chance might there be a home economics teacher on here? My son has been without a teacher for 6 months or so ( awful, I know, but we just have to make the best of it now for the last few weeks). He's very poor in this subject, hasn't a clue who will grade him so figures he had better try to attempt the exam. I'm sitting with him now and we are trying to figure out how the marking scheme works, is how much information he should be giving for each answer. Is there a format to it? I mean, from the little info there is on the exam papers booklet, we see some questions are worth 20 marks ( write 5 points @ 4 marks each) others are for example worth 12 marks , ( it says write 4 points @ 3 marks each) - . But say, for this, how does he know that this 12 mark question is looking for 4 points at 3 marks each, and not 6 points at 2 points each, or indeed 12 points at 1 point each! The real exam paper won't have that info on it, so how does he know how many points to give? I don't want him wasting time trying to think of 12 points to give for a 12 mark answer, when the examiner only wants him to write 2 points at 6 marks each....or perhaps 4 points at 3 marks each!!!! I think I'm confusing myself now! But if anyone might have a clue I'd be so very grateful. Many thanks.

coillsaille · 27-02-2021 07:58PM

carr62 wrote: »

By any chance might there be a home economics teacher on here? My son has been without a teacher for 6 months or so ( awful, I know, but we just have to make the best of it now for the last few weeks). He's very poor in this subject, hasn't a clue who will grade him so figures he had better try to attempt the exam. I'm sitting with him now and we are trying to figure out how the marking scheme works, is how much information he should be giving for each answer. Is there a format to it? I mean, from the little info there is on the exam papers booklet, we see some questions are worth 20 marks ( write 5 points @ 4 marks each) others are for example worth 12 marks , ( it says write 4 points @ 3 marks each) - . But say, for this, how does he know that this 12 mark question is looking for 4 points at 3 marks each, and not 6 points at 2 points each, or indeed 12 points at 1 point each! The real exam paper won't have that info on it, so how does he know how many points to give? I don't want him wasting time trying to think of 12 points to give for a 12 mark answer, when the examiner only wants him to write 2 points at 6 marks each....or perhaps 4 points at 3 marks each!!!! I think I'm confusing myself now! But if anyone might have a clue I'd be so very grateful. Many thanks.

Marking schemes for all past LC exams can be found at examinations.ie under the section titled examation material archive.

Random sample · 27-02-2021 08:32PM

carr62 wrote: »

By any chance might there be a home economics teacher on here? My son has been without a teacher for 6 months or so ( awful, I know, but we just have to make the best of it now for the last few weeks). He's very poor in this subject, hasn't a clue who will grade him so figures he had better try to attempt the exam. I'm sitting with him now and we are trying to figure out how the marking scheme works, is how much information he should be giving for each answer. Is there a format to it? I mean, from the little info there is on the exam papers booklet, we see some questions are worth 20 marks ( write 5 points @ 4 marks each) others are for example worth 12 marks , ( it says write 4 points @ 3 marks each) - . But say, for this, how does he know that this 12 mark question is looking for 4 points at 3 marks each, and not 6 points at 2 points each, or indeed 12 points at 1 point each! The real exam paper won't have that info on it, so how does he know how many points to give? I don't want him wasting time trying to think of 12 points to give for a 12 mark answer, when the examiner only wants him to write 2 points at 6 marks each....or perhaps 4 points at 3 marks each!!!! I think I'm confusing myself now! But if anyone might have a clue I'd be so very grateful. Many thanks.

That’s just something that you work out from practice at the different questions. You’d become familiar with the types of questions that look for more/less information.

They may also use these types of questions to tweak a marking scheme too to get the curve right, which you wouldn’t necessarily get from the published marking schemes.

Generally, write as much as possible in the time available for each question. That’s something he should have worked out beforehand, how many minutes will he have with a question based on the marks available.

Did he get the journal filled in on time?

The way forward for LC2021

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