Justice League Spoilers from post 980 onward

The White Wolf · 26-02-2021 09:32PM

pixelburp wrote: »

Wonder if it's a good thing or bad thing that just as a new Superman TV show starts, the scuttlebutt pivots to this new unknown movie adaptation. Could drive interest to it, could take some of the wind from its sails. Apparently initial reviews are positive and it's not as CW as the rest of the DC shows

As someone pointed out to me earlier much to my amazement Ezra Miller was cast when the CW The Flash very early in its run and it didn't hinder it in any way.

Crazy to think after all this time Miller is getting his solo in......2022.

ThePott · 26-02-2021 09:32PM

Michael B Jordan was rumoured for this a long time ago, he also apparently pitched them a Black Superman idea not long ago around the time JJ appeared on the scene. Make no mistake this was a reactionary move, the rumour first started September of 2018 the same year as Black Panther. They looked at BP's box office and thought what if.

Some people are dumping on the idea and other people are calling it a brave move but to be entirely honest.
Warner Bros hasn't managed to nail a Superman film in 40 years. They have nothing left to lose at this stage. He's a character that they see as a disappointment regardless of how much they milk him. They're happy to put him on TV.
As much as I like Cavill in the role they clearly have no interest in using him or making a Man of Steel 2.

The White Wolf · 26-02-2021 09:56PM

A quote has been dug up already from the mooted writer of the reboot dismissing DC and the idea of Superman being the conservative ideal. Americans fans are about to lose their minds.

26-02-2021 10:09PM

The White Wolf wrote: »

A quote has been dug up already from the mooted writer of the reboot dismissing DC and the idea of Superman being the conservative ideal. Americans fans are about to lose their minds.

Coates isn't secretive about his views in general and I think a script would benefit from it tbh. Some fans might get annoyed but the most annoyed will be conservative commentators and the alt right kind of people tbh. But that's pretty much what happens when a traditionally male character is female too, they're just easily upset....

Pretty much every comic writer that reboots a character reinvents him for the age..

silverharp · 26-02-2021 10:14PM

The White Wolf wrote: »

A quote has been dug up already from the mooted writer of the reboot dismissing DC and the idea of Superman being the conservative ideal. Americans fans are about to lose their minds.

what does that mean? what about Superman is "conservative" , he is more a universal kind of character.

Lithium93_ · 26-02-2021 10:22PM

silverharp wrote: »

what does that mean? what about Superman is "conservative" , he is more a universal kind of character.

I think what he's getting at is, the guy who's been suggested to write the Supes film, an old quote of his has been found saying that Clarke/Supes is what you've said he is, and that I think will irk some Conservative types who see Superman not as the how you or I would see him.

I am, of course open to correction, but that's the gist of what I got.

The White Wolf · 26-02-2021 10:22PM

silverharp wrote: »

what does that mean? what about Superman is "conservative" , he is more a universal kind of character.

Just the usual accusations against Superman of upholding American Ideals such as truth and justice.

But there is obviously more to Superman's character; he's an alien, immigrant, unwilling saviour etc....

You would like to think the writer would recognise that depth in Superman.

26-02-2021 10:24PM

silverharp wrote: »

what does that mean? what about Superman is "conservative" , he is more a universal kind of character.

He is often interpreted as conservative. But like, modern US conservatism doesn't exactly work for the character as is. Plus he's an illegal alien.

silverharp · 26-02-2021 10:46PM

Lithium93_ wrote: »

I think what he's getting at is, the guy who's been suggested to write the Supes film, an old quote of his has been found saying that Clarke/Supes is what you've said he is, and that I think will irk some Conservative types who see Superman not as the how you or I would see him.

I am, of course open to correction, but that's the gist of what I got.

fair enough, I just get the feeling that there is a bit of imagining views that people probably dont hold and then imagining they will be irritated by it.

There doesnt seem to be much demand for a reboot, i saw one random comment "yeah get back to me in 10 or 15 years" I dont get the feeling they got a big money spinner on their hands

ThePott · 26-02-2021 10:57PM

Coates has said he didn't read a lot of DC comics and was more of a Marvel reader, on the other hand he did show a lot of love for the animated DC cartoons of the 90's. This was in 2015. I'm sure there's plenty of directors who haven't read many comics tbh. If nothing else everyone has a perception of Superman through cultural osmosis. If they want a fresh take on Superman then I think they could do far worse personally.

As for the Conservative debate. It's certainly something that does exist. Last year Dean Cain said that nowadays he wouldn't be allowed to say Truth, Justice and the American Way. It's a shallow interpretation of the character by people that that see the character more as a symbol than as an actual character. On the surface he wears the American colours, is from the heartland of America and fights for good. Again that's the shallow interpretation that some on the right latch onto as an American ideal. It's a poor reading of the character but I have seen it said before, it's not something imagined certainly. Not looking for a political debate about Superman either :pac:

Need a Username · 26-02-2021 11:05PM

FunLover18 wrote: »

Because it's irrelevant!

Four hours is still four hours. The issue isn't whether I can watch it in one go or spread it out, the issue is whether I want to see this film so badly I'd be willing to spend four hours with it. I don't, so why would I even start it?

So why are you arguing about it ?

Need a Username · 26-02-2021 11:10PM

Agent Coulson wrote: »

Not long at all.

Superman Film Reboot Reportedly Built Around a Black Man of Steel
A new report states that the Superman to headline Warner Bros., Ta-Nehisi Coates and J.J. Abrams' reboot film will be a Black Man of Steel.

https://www.cbr.com/superman-reboot-black-man-of-steel/

So does this mean that the movie is actually going to be about Lois Lane?

Need a Username · 26-02-2021 11:13PM

pixelburp wrote: »

Wonder if it's a good thing or bad thing that just as a new Superman TV show starts, the scuttlebutt pivots to this new unknown movie adaptation. Could drive interest to it, could take some of the wind from its sails. Apparently initial reviews are positive and it's not as CW as the rest of the DC shows

Apparently the Arrow wasn’t allowed use Suicide Squad once that movie went into production.

Nothing like that happened on the Flash.

Need a Username · 26-02-2021 11:18PM

Penn wrote: »

Yeah, it's real

https://deadline.com/2021/02/superman-reboot-in-the-works-at-warner-bros-with-ta-nehisi-coates-writing-j-j-abrams-producing-1234701922/

Looking like Cavill won't be back and it's a full reboot.

The Robert Pattinson Batman movie is separate to
The other films. So is Joker.

This film might be the same so Cavill could still play the part.

However it is highly unlikely we are ever getting a Man of Steel 2 or another Justice League.

dublinman1990 · 27-02-2021 01:00AM

In keeping up with DC's new cinema Multiverse strategy; this movie could have Henry Cavill kept on as the DCEU Superman i.e. Earth 1's Superman & this new rebooted version of Superman, the character of Calvin Ellis, would be kept for the Earth 2 universe.

pixelburp · 27-02-2021 01:23AM

silverharp wrote: »

what does that mean? what about Superman is "conservative" , he is more a universal kind of character.

For the longest time the character's catchphrase was literally: "truth, justice and the American way". Few heroes were ever that politicised, and iirc the phrase was only retired in the 90s - to the anger of American conservatives at the time. A Randian superman who grew up on a wholesome American farm. The idea of Supes being a conservative ideal is not that far fetched. Don't buy it myself, but I can see how one would get there.

silverharp · 27-02-2021 09:33AM

pixelburp wrote: »

For the longest time the character's catchphrase was literally: "truth, justice and the American way". Few heroes were ever that politicised, and iirc the phrase was only retired in the 90s - to the anger of American conservatives at the time. A Randian superman who grew up on a wholesome American farm. The idea of Supes being a conservative ideal is not that far fetched. Don't buy it myself, but I can see how one would get there.

not relevant to now is my point , you are pulling views from 30 or 40 years ago, and thinking some people got the same views now. Was any of this relevant to the last Superman film? show me the outrage that Superman didnt say "....the American way" a few years back?

Penn · 27-02-2021 10:20AM

pixelburp wrote: »

For the longest time the character's catchphrase was literally: "truth, justice and the American way". Few heroes were ever that politicised, and iirc the phrase was only retired in the 90s - to the anger of American conservatives at the time. A Randian superman who grew up on a wholesome American farm. The idea of Supes being a conservative ideal is not that far fetched. Don't buy it myself, but I can see how one would get there.

I'd love to see a Conservative Superman movie. Where he doesn't stop a school shooting because the gunmen have 2nd amendment rights, and then gives an interview on Fox News saying it's too soon to discuss what he could have done differently, but he offers his thoughts and prayers to the victims.

27-02-2021 10:21AM

Penn wrote: »

I'd love to see a Conservative Superman movie. Where he doesn't stop a school shooting because the gunmen have 2nd amendment rights, and then gives an interview on Fox News saying it's too soon to discuss what he could have done differently, but he offers his thoughts and prayers to the victims.

I do think you could get a great horror film out of him now that I think about it...

pixelburp · 27-02-2021 10:34AM

silverharp wrote: »

not relevant to now is my point , you are pulling views from 30 or 40 years ago, and thinking some people got the same views now. Was any of this relevant to the last Superman film? show me the outrage that Superman didnt say "....the American way" a few years back?

The character is near 100 years old and the Cavill superman is an outlier given he is, predominantly, a comicbook character not a movie one so that's what I presume Coates was taking as his intellectual jumping off point. Which seems likely given Coates has written for (Black Panther) comics. You can't really talk of what Superman is broadly without examining the comics, which inform 99% of the characters genetics, literal or metaphorical.

Cavill was a good fit for the role but his Superman was not that emblematic of the character as seen and loved from the pages. Synder's films have deliberately framed Supes powers as a sometimes terrible burden, mixed with heavy-handed, occasional Christ allegories - so yeah, conservatism ain't that far away in the films either.

For sure, if we go far enough back, then Superman was just a power fantasy for a couple of jewish writers, the character neither alien nor had the ability to fly, so it's all a bit of a moveable feast; but the template by which we know the character has a strong American conservative ethic.

CramCycle · 27-02-2021 10:44AM

dublinman1990 wrote: »

In keeping up with DC's new cinema Multiverse strategy; this movie could have Henry Cavill kept on as the DCEU Superman i.e. Earth 1's Superman & this new rebooted version of Superman, the character of Calvin Ellis, would be kept for the Earth 2 universe.

Makes the most sense and would mean they could do what they want if they have good stand alone movie ideas. I mean the movie Flash and CW one have crossed over so its fairly simple to do, although non-comic fans might be annoyed by the lack of consistency that DC provided compared to Marvel.

On the Superman commentary, I don't think they have had a bad superman actor over the last few years. I like Brandon Roth, he was basically Christoper Reeve and he done it well. Unfortunately the film went off a cliff with Luthors plans. Henry Cavill was also a good Superman, with some nice twists on the sacrifices he made just to fit in. Again it was the movie rather than the actor that done a bad job, that fight the seemed to go on for the length of a movie itself just was poor editing. Its just my opinion but neither actors were they issue, it was very much either the script, the director or the editors.

pixelburp · 27-02-2021 10:59AM

Every single superman actor has been let down by the script, I think that's both fair and undeniable in terms of a simple treatment of the character. Even the Reeve movies TBH; even in the 78 film there was a lot of childish guff, that only became more numerous as the sequels came along. His strike rate was 1 outta 4, which wasn't great really.

8 movies with Superman, and only 1 managed to JUST do the guy as he is. No twists, subversions, weird Deadbeat Dad angles, just a decent soul trying his best. Hell even with subversions we've had better via off brand adaptations like Homelander. Dunno why scriptwriters can't just do Superman. 1978 got closest, but IMO that was all Reeve.

the baby bull elephant · 27-02-2021 11:12AM

pixelburp wrote: »

The character is near 100 years old and the Cavill superman is an outlier given he is, predominantly, a comicbook character not a movie one so that's what I presume Coates was taking as his intellectual jumping off point. Which seems likely given Coates has written for (Black Panther) comics. You can't really talk of what Superman is broadly without examining the comics, which inform 99% of the characters genetics, literal or metaphorical.

Cavill was a good fit for the role but his Superman was not that emblematic of the character as seen and loved from the pages. Synder's films have deliberately framed Supes powers as a sometimes terrible burden, mixed with heavy-handed, occasional Christ allegories - so yeah, conservatism ain't that far away in the films either.

For sure, if we go far enough back, then Superman was just a power fantasy for a couple of jewish writers, the character neither alien nor had the ability to fly, so it's all a bit of a moveable feast; but the template by which we know the character has a strong American conservative ethic.

I get what you're saying but it's also worth remembering that golden age Superman regularly dealt with corrupt slumlords. The radio show which codified a lot of what we know of modern day Superman had him fighting the Klan. Since the 80s his main villain has basically been the American conservative ideal, a self-made (though this does flip-flop) business man who was once even president. I agree people can pin their own beliefs on him, as is somewhat purposeful, but it's ignoring a lot for conservatives to throw him up as their paragon.

Of course if it's not GA or Hawkman DC editorial does try to keep characters as apolitical as possible.

pixelburp · 27-02-2021 11:40AM

the baby bull elephant wrote: »

I get what you're saying but it's also worth remembering that golden age Superman regularly dealt with corrupt slumlords. The radio show which codified a lot of what we know of modern day Superman had him fighting the Klan. Since the 80s his main villain has basically been the American conservative ideal, a self-made (though this does flip-flop) business man who was once even president. I agree people can pin their own beliefs on him, as is somewhat purposeful, but it's ignoring a lot for conservatives to throw him up as their paragon.

Of course if it's not GA or Hawkman DC editorial does try to keep characters as apolitical as possible.

You're not wrong, I take that perspective all right, but there's a certain ... uh oh here I go ... cultural appropriation that goes on with these kind of characters, regardless of the truth of their history. The most recent example I can think of would be something Pepe the Frog, an otherwise frivolous web-cartoon character, who became appropriated by the American Right for strategic meme purposes :pac: Rightly or wrongly, icons like Mickey Mouse, Superman et al became emblematic of this myth of "America". In Marvel's case, literally making their own national superman with Cap. Amerca (it's still a remarkable feat that the movies somehow side-stepped that jingoism, making Cap a hero to cheer in this day & age)

Superman was certainly seen to stand up to malevolent forces in American society in the pages, but he also became something of a symbol of institutional conservatism at the same time: from his colour scheme to his farming background - even your examples could be framed as the White Saviour in action - so yeah. I could see how young kids like Ta-Nehisi Coates might have found Superman irrelevant, even regressive, growing up.

After all, it wasn't without reason that Frank Miller, for all his faults, made an astute move in writing Superman a literal stooge of the US government in The Dark Knight Returns (at this stage, perhaps the most overtaxed well in comics fiction?). It suddenly made a lot of sense really; Red Son flipped it a little in making him ruler of Russia. While other works like The Boys really took that idea and ran it into the ground with Homelander. Brightburn attempted an off-brand "what if Superman, but evil?" too, so the idea of Superman as a unilateral force was never that far away in the margins.

Yikes. I do apologise to anyone reading this and thinking "Jesus Christ, he's just a fun superhero", but I think the history of the character is fascinating - even if I'm not that big a fan of the character itself.

CastorTroy · 27-02-2021 12:34PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I do think you could get a great horror film out of him now that I think about it...

Just need to wait for a Brightburn sequel

silverharp · 27-02-2021 07:48PM

pixelburp wrote: »

The character is near 100 years old and the Cavill superman is an outlier given he is, predominantly, a comicbook character not a movie one so that's what I presume Coates was taking as his intellectual jumping off point. Which seems likely given Coates has written for (Black Panther) comics. You can't really talk of what Superman is broadly without examining the comics, which inform 99% of the characters genetics, literal or metaphorical.

Cavill was a good fit for the role but his Superman was not that emblematic of the character as seen and loved from the pages. Synder's films have deliberately framed Supes powers as a sometimes terrible burden, mixed with heavy-handed, occasional Christ allegories - so yeah, conservatism ain't that far away in the films either.

For sure, if we go far enough back, then Superman was just a power fantasy for a couple of jewish writers, the character neither alien nor had the ability to fly, so it's all a bit of a moveable feast; but the template by which we know the character has a strong American conservative ethic.

i dont read comics, as far as films go they should be self contained and enough there to work with. With the new Superman and Lois show they are setting up a bridge between rural and urban America and seem to making a good job of it.
JJ almost guarantees the film will be at best vapid

I saw this 2019 meme bouncing around recently, i'd be focusing more on how the film be a ruined rather than looking for neckbeards to be upset

ThePott · 27-02-2021 08:57PM

The investigator on the Justice League cast have come out and backed up that Hamada did not interfere with the investigation and that Ray Fisher's comments to the contrary are false.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/justice-league-investigator-backs-dc-films-walter-hamada-after-ray-fisher-claims?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

The White Wolf · 27-02-2021 09:02PM

ThePott wrote: »

The investigator on the Justice League cast have come out and backed up that Hamada did not interfere with the investigation and that Ray Fisher's comments to the contrary are false.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/heat-vision/justice-league-investigator-backs-dc-films-walter-hamada-after-ray-fisher-claims?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social

It's quite humourous that WB rode the wave of Fisher's accusations until he dare tried undermining their Black Superman announcement.

Aside from that Fisher is on the record saying WB initially went with their own investigatorbefore they agreed to an independent investigator. I assume this guy is the former one.

ThePott · 27-02-2021 10:06PM

The White Wolf wrote: »

Aside from that Fisher is on the record saying WB initially went with their own investigatorbefore they agreed to an independent investigator. I assume this guy is the former one.

Former federal judge so I would assume it was an independent investigator. Tbh considering they got as far as Charisma Carpenter in their investigation I think it seems like it was pretty above board. I hadn't heard that WB had their own investigator from anyone aside from Fisher.

If we're honest though I don't know was he happy with the results of the investigation anyway and what result he actually wanted.

Agent Coulson · 27-02-2021 10:29PM

They have released a statement from 1 of 3 investigations why not release a statement from all 3 investigators?

WarnerMedia shared a statement from a retired federal judge who oversaw one of three investigations into misconduct on the set of Justice League

I interviewed him extensively on more than one occasion and specifically interviewed him concerning his very limited interaction with Mr. Fisher. I found Mr. Hamada credible and forthcoming. I concluded that he did nothing that impeded or interfered with the investigation. To the contrary, the information that he provided was useful and advanced the investigation

Unless the other two investigators statements contradict what the released one is saying.

At this stage now Fisher needs to stop beating around the bush and just say what happened or just stop.

Justice League **Spoilers from post 980 onward**

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Justice League Spoilers from post 980 onward