Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

Sam Russell · 25-02-2021 05:54PM

Greaney wrote: »

Let them eat cake?

Rail is better than bus for

1) Wheelchair users
2) mobility scooters
3) bikes
4) Cancer & dialysis patents prefer rail. It's a better mode of transport with regards to facilities. Many come from Donegal & Sligo which is no joke on a bus.

Ireland is awash with invisible bus stops. They have no toilets, no shelter & no signage

How many people living between Tuam and Athenry fit into that cohort - wheelchair user, mobility scooter, cancer and dialysis patients? How often do they travel? How do they travel at the moment?

Del.Monte · 25-02-2021 06:06PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

The point I was making is similar to the tourist looking for directions from a local and gets the reply - 'If I were going there, I would not start from here!'

If you want to provide rail PT in Co Galway, no-one would build it down the Tuam Athenry alignment. It starts from a very small town and goes to a very small town with nothing in-between that might generate a few passengers.

A bus running down the newly built M17 provides a much better connection, so why look any further?

Improving rail in Co. Galway would be better served by dual tracking the line from Athenry to Galway - perhaps even doing that from Athlone. It would then allow commuter rail over that distance.

Why has the northern rebuilding of the so-called WRC become about providing a commuter link between Tuam and Galway when in reality it is about reinstating a through route linking the North West with the South and South East. You might as well argue that providing a rail link between Limerick and Westport would NOT be built via Galway City. This thread is just a total ****ing bore at this stage and just irritates all concerned.

Greaney · 25-02-2021 06:28PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

How many people living between Tuam and Athenry fit into that cohort - wheelchair user, mobility scooter, cancer and dialysis patients? How often do they travel? How do they travel at the moment?

That should have all been in the EY report. It wasn't :rolleyes:

eastwest · 25-02-2021 06:28PM

Del.Monte wrote: »

Why has the northern rebuilding of the so-called WRC become about providing a commuter link between Tuam and Galway when in reality it is about reinstating a through route linking the North West with the South and South East. You might as well argue that providing a rail link between Limerick and Westport would NOT be built via Galway City. This thread is just a total ****ing bore at this stage and just irritates all concerned.

I think not even the most wildly optimistic railway enthusiast thinks there will be anything other than a freight railway between Claremorris and Athenry at this stage. Even West on track, whose view of this grandiose project is more optimistic than anybody's, has pretty much conceded this in their more recent pronouncements. This has been all about freight for a few years now, even though the WDC report could find no case for an additional freight railway to serve Mayo.
But the idea of building a passenger railway from Limerick to Derry, or even to Sligo, is one that is simply in the realms of fantasy.

Sam Russell · 25-02-2021 06:40PM

If the Gov had a choice between putting a railway line from Tuam to Galway or between Navan and Parkway (both about the same distance), which do you think would get a better no of passengers? Both follow a previous line long closed, and connecting to an existing service.

Alternatively, which route would be chosen to become a greenway to preserve the alignment in public ownership?

westtip · 25-02-2021 06:53PM

eastwest wrote: »

I think not even the most wildly optimistic railway enthusiast thinks there will be anything other than a freight railway between Claremorris and Athenry at this stage. Even West on track, whose view of this grandiose project is more optimistic than anybody's, has pretty much conceded this in their more recent pronouncements. This has been all about freight for a few years now, even though the WDC report could find no case for an additional freight railway to serve Mayo.
But the idea of building a passenger railway from Limerick to Derry, or even to Sligo, is one that is simply in the realms of fantasy.

EW they just don't get it and they don't realise in the vacuum of a message board nobody is listening nor in the outside world of this asylum does anyone have the slightest bit interest in their cries of foul after the rail reports were delivered. The headlines on the reports on the day they were released is what has registered with the general public and the decision makers, it's over EW they just will not accept it, let them get their log books out and slide rules and pour over the reports adfinitum, nobody is listening to the toys being thrown out the pram. I feel slightly sorry for them.....but then on the other hand no I don't.

Del.Monte · 25-02-2021 07:07PM

eastwest wrote: »

I think not even the most wildly optimistic railway enthusiast thinks there will be anything other than a freight railway between Claremorris and Athenry at this stage. Even West on track, whose view of this grandiose project is more optimistic than anybody's, has pretty much conceded this in their more recent pronouncements. This has been all about freight for a few years now, even though the WDC report could find no case for an additional freight railway to serve Mayo.
But the idea of building a passenger railway from Limerick to Derry, or even to Sligo, is one that is simply in the realms of fantasy.

I did not mention Sligo or Derry and nowhere have I seen passenger trains between Athenry and Claremorris deleted from anyone's plans. Just because Eamonn Ryan has a some grandiose freight plan does not undermine the credibility of reinstating passenger services.

eastwest · 25-02-2021 07:08PM

Sam Russell wrote: »

If the Gov had a choice between putting a railway line from Tuam to Galway or between Navan and Parkway (both about the same distance), which do you think would get a better no of passengers? Both follow a previous line long closed, and connecting to an existing service.

Alternatively, which route would be chosen to become a greenway to preserve the alignment in public ownership?

There's 30,000 people living in Navan and quite a few more between there and Parkway, and a lot of them work in Dublin. Trim was served by a branch off the old line and has around 9,000 people.
Tuam has just over 5,000 people.
So I suppose, wearing my west on track hat, the answer is Tuam to Galway?

eastwest · 25-02-2021 07:11PM

Del.Monte wrote: »

I did not mention Sligo or Derry and nowhere have I seen passenger trains between Athenry and Claremorris deleted from anyone's plans. Just because Eamonn Ryan has a some grandiose freight plan does not undermine the credibility of reinstating passenger services.

As I recall, John O'Mahony was the one who suggested opening the line for freight only, and he even had a McCann Report style costing, based in part on the fact that it wouldn't need stations.

Isambard · 25-02-2021 07:15PM

Del.Monte wrote: »

Why has the northern rebuilding of the so-called WRC become about providing a commuter link between Tuam and Galway when in reality it is about reinstating a through route linking the North West with the South and South East. You might as well argue that providing a rail link between Limerick and Westport would NOT be built via Galway City. This thread is just a total ****ing bore at this stage and just irritates all concerned.

there already is a through route linking the NW and S/SE

Del.Monte · 25-02-2021 07:17PM

Isambard wrote: »

there already is a through route linking the NW and S/SE

Do tell, I must have missed it.

Isambard · 25-02-2021 07:19PM

Sligo to Dublin then PPT and Cork or Waterford main lines would be options.

Del.Monte · 25-02-2021 07:27PM

Isambard wrote: »

Sligo to Dublin then PPT and Cork or Waterford main lines would be options.

Not very realistic options are they but I suppose anything goes in the WRC thread.

Isambard · 25-02-2021 07:43PM

Del.Monte wrote: »

Not very realistic options are they but I suppose anything goes in the WRC thread.

What's not realistic about it? Put on a service Sligo to Waterford or Rosslare as a tester and see how many through journeys occur.

That few passengers and no freight go that way would be a good indication of what traffic the WRC might (or might not) carry.

Captain Lugger · 25-02-2021 07:52PM

Deleted User wrote: »

What do you mean by this?
Are you anti sprawl?

A long term policy to encourage rail use would be to ban one off housing and development not adjacent to rail lines. It would go down like a lead balloon locally.

You’ve summed up objections to rural regeneration that would create sustainable jobs and encourage growth in both population and the economy. Running Ireland as if there would be never be growth is going to limit work to the existing cities and we cut off any chance of growing the country away from boom and bust.

Captain Lugger · 25-02-2021 07:55PM

Isambard wrote: »

I think there's a typo there, did you mean GDR?

No.

Captain Lugger · 25-02-2021 07:58PM

Greaney wrote: »

Let them eat cake?

Rail is better than bus for

1) Wheelchair users
2) mobility scooters
3) bikes
4) Cancer & dialysis patents prefer rail. It's a better mode of transport with regards to facilities. Many come from Donegal & Sligo which is no joke on a bus.

Ireland is awash with invisible bus stops. They have no toilets, no shelter & no signage

Good enough for them, say the rail objectors. It’s ultimately all about keeping the status quo - cars and more of them; while the development value of ag land is the same for a hacienda or a multi use development on the same footprint.

25-02-2021 08:32PM

Captain Lugger wrote: »

Good enough for them, say the rail objectors. It’s ultimately all about keeping the status quo - cars and more of them; while the development value of ag land is the same for a hacienda or a multi use development on the same footprint.

Personally I'm not a rail objector, I used rail regularly pre-covid. Since covid I've sold my car so now bus, bike & rail are my options. I also am one of those with mobility issues.

If the WRC phase 2/3/whatever got approved in the morning, I'd cheer and start pushing to make sure they built a greenway alongside it as 90% of the existing infrastructure would need to be replaced so there would be major construction activities happening along the route anyway.

Nothing at all wrong with this and even the Dublin - Galway greenway considered this option for its route as this is a normal practice all over the world. Note, it also has a significant portion of the Athenry - Tuam line marked as another option for part of the route.

Rail & bike infrastructure go very well together as the gradient for rail makes for a very pleasant cycle. Lets make use of the asset until such time as a strong enough case for rail exists.

Just because I want to see the greenway now doesn't mean I never want to see a railway, I'm just a realist unlike some who would rather see the asset rot, serving nobody.

ezstreet5 · 25-02-2021 08:58PM

eastwest wrote: »

There's 30,000 people living in Navan and quite a few more between there and Parkway, and a lot of them work in Dublin. Trim was served by a branch off the old line and has around 9,000 people.
Tuam has just over 5,000 people.
So I suppose, wearing my west on track hat, the answer is Tuam to Galway?

I'd say there would be good uptake for a Tuam-Galway rail service. Tuam has a population over 9,000, and the bus alone carries over 2,000 passengers per day. Even with the Athenry "detour," a rail service would shave 15 to 30 minutes off of the bus commute, which now stands at 45 to 60+ min (pre-Covid). There will always be a need for Burke's Bus, but for those travelling to Galway city centre, the rail service would be the preferred option.

25-02-2021 09:02PM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I'd say there would be good uptake for a Tuam-Galway rail service. Tuam has a population over 9,000, and the bus alone carries over 2,000 passengers per day. Even with the Athenry "detour," a rail service would shave 15 to 30 minutes off of the bus commute, which now stands at 45 to 60+ min (pre-Covid). There will always be a need for Burke's Bus, but for those travelling to Galway city centre, the rail service would be the preferred option.

Still not a strong enough justification to build WRC phase 2 ahead of other rail projects, not by a long shot.

It should be noted that the Tuam Rd is scheduled to get a bus lane too which will bring down the journey time significantly for Burkes and others

ezstreet5 · 25-02-2021 09:07PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Still not a strong enough justification to build WRC phase 2 ahead of other rail projects, not by a long shot.

It should be noted that the Tuam Rd is scheduled to get a bus lane too which will bring down the journey time significantly for Burkes and others

What's the price tag for that?

eastwest · 25-02-2021 09:13PM

Isambard wrote: »

there already is a through route linking the NW and S/SE

Derry-Belfast-Dublin-Waterford, all by rail.

25-02-2021 09:30PM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

What's the price tag for that?

Hasn't been funded yet so I couldn't tell you. Last I heard they were working out CP issues on the stretch after Flemings garage. How far its supposed to go and from where to where, I don't know yet. I post regularly in the Galway traffic thread on the Galway City & County board. If you follow that you'll get those answers when I have them.

Think its safe to say it will have a vastly higher CBA than any extension of the WRC would though

eastwest · 26-02-2021 12:18AM

ezstreet5 wrote: »

I'd say there would be good uptake for a Tuam-Galway rail service. Tuam has a population over 9,000, and the bus alone carries over 2,000 passengers per day. Even with the Athenry "detour," a rail service would shave 15 to 30 minutes off of the bus commute, which now stands at 45 to 60+ min (pre-Covid). There will always be a need for Burke's Bus, but for those travelling to Galway city centre, the rail service would be the preferred option.

I understand the majority of the bus commute from tuam isn't to eyre Square, but to Ballybrit and the hospital.

serfboard · 26-02-2021 06:19PM

Del.Monte wrote: »

This thread is just a total ****ing bore at this stage

Maybe stop reading it then?

Del.Monte · 26-02-2021 07:30PM

serfboard wrote: »

Maybe stop reading it then?

I would except that every once in a while I feel antagonised enough to post. At the end of the day all the views expressed here by both sides will count for nothing as the government will do nothing and CIE will be happy with that outcome and as for the greenway....

eastwest · 26-02-2021 07:44PM

Del.Monte wrote: »

I would except that every once in a while I feel antagonised enough to post. At the end of the day all the views expressed here by both sides will count for nothing as the government will do nothing and CIE will be happy with that outcome and as for the greenway....

Unfortunately, doing nothing is the best political option south of claremorris. The greenway has probably reached a tipping point on the Burma Road, particularly with the Sligo Greenway now well embedded in council policy.
South of claremorris though, because the rail lobby is so embedded in local politics, and because a number of TDs are committed to rail only, the voice of the public won't count for anything.
Whoever said that doing nothing was not an option clearly had never come across east Galway and south Mayo politics.

ShaneC1600 · 26-02-2021 08:32PM

eastwest wrote: »

Unfortunately, doing nothing is the best political option south of claremorris. The greenway has probably reached a tipping point on the Burma Road, particularly with the Sligo Greenway now well embedded in council policy.
South of claremorris though, because the rail lobby is so embedded in local politics, and because a number of TDs are committed to rail only, the voice of the public won't count for anything.
Whoever said that doing nothing was not an option clearly had never come across east Galway and south Mayo politics.

Funny thing is the greenway campaign might be louder and have louder supporters than the railway lobbyists and supporters but there seems to be solid support for the railway regardless of what the greenway campaign would have people believe.
The voice of the public is not all greenway from what I see and here south of Claremorris.

Greaney · 26-02-2021 09:48PM

ShaneC1600 wrote: »

Funny thing is the greenway campaign might be louder and have louder supporters than the railway lobbyists and supporters but there seems to be solid support for the railway regardless of what the greenway campaign would have people believe.
The voice of the public is not all greenway from what I see and here south of Claremorris.

Indeed, 73% pro rail & 10% pro greenway was the final tally on the EY report

ohographite · 26-02-2021 10:13PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

For Athenry - Tuam, it has total rail daily demand of 145 passengers. I very much doubt that the demand for Athenry - Tuam is almost half of the north bound boardings recorded for Athenry - Galway in the 2019 heavy rail census. For every two people commuting Athenry - Galway by train, there is almost another person who would take the train daily Athenry - Tuam? I doubt it given the huge difference in employment, educational and leisure opportunities in Galway city v Tuam.

Perhaps the estimate of 145 Athenry - Tuam passengers daily includes the estimated number of passengers who would travel to Tuam from Dublin, and, to a lesser extent, those travelling to Tuam from the towns between Dublin and Athenry. They would have to change trains in Athenry, so maybe the report labels all predicted Dublin-Tuam journeys as Athenry-Tuam journeys. It could be how they arrived at the estimate of 145 passengers daily, but I am not sure.

Western Rail Corridor / Rail Trail Discussion

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