Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

Thelonious Monk · 26-02-2021 03:21PM

Anyway, I'm going to let this one go, can't see it happening now and I thought it was audacious to start with, fair play to DCC for trying at least, but at the end of the day Irish people do not want to get out of their cars.

Larbre34 · 26-02-2021 03:30PM

tomasrojo wrote: »

How is the behaviour of DCC different from DLRCC anyway? They did hasty emergency cycling and walking infrastructure as well, with minimal consultation, with the option of undoing after the trial. Dundrum Main Street was altered pretty comprehensively.

In fairness to DLR, they went mostly with low impact, proportionate measures. If you look at Dundrum and Blackrock, both villages are bypassed by a high quality route, so the works that were implemented were suitable and beneficial. In fact, had DCC done similar, reduced Sandymount village to a single lane with cycle priority and left Strand Road alone to carry the main traffic, we wouldn't be where we are today.

I've said many times, the Government *said* go out an improve mobility locally to suit pandemic conditions. They didn't change any laws to bolster that, so the planning laws never stopped applying. When DCC took the absolute piss by putting forward a huge impact scheme like Strand Road, it always exceeded the spirit of the Govt's direction and it was ALWAYS going to be challenged.

In persisting with their approach, DCC have now brought this legal challenge down on their head. The full judicial review on 27th April will affect every single local scheme enacted under "covid mobility", including the Quays and including DLRs work on the Seapoint to Dun Laoghaire Coast. If the High Court rules against DCC, all of those will likely have to be torn up. I'm sure DLR will be delighted with DCC in that event.

So again, its all down to negligent DCC management and their will be consequences.

DoraDelite · 26-02-2021 03:30PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Anyway, I'm going to let this one go, can't see it happening now and I thought it was audacious to start with, fair play to DCC for trying at least, but at the end of the day Irish people do not want to get out of their cars.

It's the selfishness of the minority that gets to me. They couldn't care less about anyone but themselves. They don't care about their neighbours, communities or making the city a nicer place to be.

Fighting Tao · 26-02-2021 03:32PM

Don’t forget, that STC even got their back of an envelope drawings onto the table for the second consultation. They cannot claim foul play since that happened.

tomasrojo · 26-02-2021 03:36PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

In fairness to DLR, they went mostly with low impact, proportionate measures. If you look at Dundrum and Blackrock, both villages are bypassed by a high quality route, so the works that were implemented were suitable and beneficial. In fact, had DCC done similar, reduced Sandymount village to a single lane with cycle priority and left Strand Road alone to carry the main traffic, we wouldn't be where we are today.

Dundrum Main Street was a fairly major two-way thoroughfare though.

Peregrine · 26-02-2021 03:38PM

Thelonious Monk wrote: »

Anyway, I'm going to let this one go, can't see it happening now and I thought it was audacious to start with, fair play to DCC for trying at least, but at the end of the day Irish people do not want to get out of their cars.

Not a lot to be done about this between now and April. Take a break. It's exhausting. Plenty of other projects to put your energy into.

tomasrojo · 26-02-2021 03:39PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

The full judicial review on 27th April will affect every single local scheme enacted under "covid mobility", including the Quays and including DLRs work on the Seapoint to Dun Laoghaire Coast. If the High Court rules against DCC, all of those will likely have to be torn up.

I have no legal background, but I'm still going to take this one with a pinch of salt. Mind you, it probably would be a fitting legacy for Mannix Flynn's time in local government.

Peregrine · 26-02-2021 03:47PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Yeah good man, thanks.

At the discretion of the legal team, some issues were put into the JR request, other issues directly related to planning regs are in the Section 5 to An Bord Pleanála. All aspects will be reviewed in these combined processes.

These planning regulations? :pac:

The submission also noted that the cyclists in computer generated image of the track “are not wearing a face covering of any description”.

The two-way track would mean cyclists were only one metre apart, the submission, made by Farry Town Planning Ltd on behalf of Mr Flynn states. “This would in our opinion facilitate the transmission of air-borne droplets to a greater degree than exists under the present layout,” it said.

“We believe that this proposal would increase transmission rates.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/order-halting-works-on-sandymount-cycleway-issued-by-high-court-1.4495901

ted1 · 26-02-2021 03:51PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

In fairness to DLR, they went mostly with low impact, proportionate measures. If you look at Dundrum and Blackrock, both villages are bypassed by a high quality route, so the works that were implemented were suitable and beneficial. In fact, had DCC done similar, reduced Sandymount village to a single lane with cycle priority and left Strand Road alone to carry the main traffic, we wouldn't be where we are today.

I've said many times, the Government *said* go out an improve mobility locally to suit pandemic conditions. They didn't change any laws to bolster that, so the planning laws never stopped applying. When DCC took the absolute piss by putting forward a huge impact scheme like Strand Road, it always exceeded the spirit of the Govt's direction and it was ALWAYS going to be challenged.

In persisting with their approach, DCC have now brought this legal challenge down on their head. The full judicial review on 27th April will affect every single local scheme enacted under "covid mobility", including the Quays and including DLRs work on the Seapoint to Dun Laoghaire Coast. If the High Court rules against DCC, all of those will likely have to be torn up. I'm sure DLR will be delighted with DCC in that event.

So again, its all down to negligent DCC management and their will be consequences.

I would have it’s down to Mannix Flynn not liking cyclists. If DCC win ,then they are it shows they are right.

26-02-2021 03:52PM

To be honest it's a pity there was a stay on the works but I think their grounds for overturning the council decision are pretty weak.

But I think also that is the noisey minority's objective. Delay, pointless consultation, obstruct and kick it into touch and hope it goes away. I'm optimistic there is sufficient pressure on the council by pro groups to get this over the line.

ted1 · 26-02-2021 03:52PM

tomasrojo wrote: »

Dundrum Main Street was a fairly major two-way thoroughfare though.

Grafton street was major thorough before DCC pedestrianised it.

26-02-2021 03:56PM

Peregrine wrote: »

The two-way track would mean cyclists were only one metre apart, the submission, made by Farry Town Planning Ltd on behalf of Mr Flynn states. “This would in our opinion facilitate the transmission of air-borne droplets to a greater degree than exists under the present layout,” it said.

“We believe that this proposal would increase transmission rates.”

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/high-court/order-halting-works-on-sandymount-cycleway-issued-by-high-court-1.4495901

They are making an excellent case to remove all traffic lanes on the strand road. :pac:

Larbre34 · 26-02-2021 04:00PM

It would be delusional for anyone to hold on to the belief that this was purely down to Mannix Flynn.

Larbre34 · 26-02-2021 04:02PM

ronoc wrote: »

To be honest it's a pity there was a stay on the works but I think their grounds for overturning the council decision are pretty weak.

But I think also that is the noisey minority's objective. Delay, pointless consultation, obstruct and kick it into touch and hope it goes away. I'm optimistic there is sufficient pressure on the council by pro groups to get this over the line.

Pressure one way or the other on the Council is irrelevant. Its in the hands of the High Court now.

tomasrojo · 26-02-2021 04:03PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

It would be delusional for anyone to hold on to the belief that this was purely down to Mannix Flynn.

I think people assume (rightly or wrongly) that it's mostly down to well-heeled nimbyists, but Flynn relentlessness on this subject is certainly an asset.

Larbre34 · 26-02-2021 04:05PM

tomasrojo wrote: »

Dundrum Main Street was a fairly major two-way thoroughfare though.

Not since the bypass was opened in the early 2000s. One way vehicle access is sufficient for the Main Street and has been supported strongly by local groups. Again, had this been the approach with Sandymount village, we'd be having a different conversation today.

26-02-2021 04:06PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Pressure one way or the other on the Council is irrelevant. Its in the hands of the High Court now.

Their case is pretty weak and there will likely be another delaying tactic after this. They are hoping the council will take the path of least resistance and quietly abandon the project.

tomasrojo · 26-02-2021 04:12PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Not since the bypass was opened in the early 2000s. One way vehicle access is sufficient for the Main Street and has been supported strongly by local groups. Again, had this been the approach with Sandymount village, we'd be having a different conversation today.

The Dundrum Main Street layout change was quite strongly opposed locally, as well as supported. I don't know enough about the layout of Strand Road/Sandymount to comment on the viability of different routes, but I assume they'd all have been met with opposition, because every change like this is.

Larbre34 · 26-02-2021 04:14PM

ronoc wrote: »

Their case is pretty weak and there will likely be another delaying tactic after this. They are hoping the council will take the path of least resistance and quietly abandon the project.

Don't forget An Bord Pleanála will issue a determination on the planning process that should have gone along with this. The High Court will likely defer to that and it will take a lot longer than April.

So, if the Council's scheme is sustainable in principle, it should withstand a proper planning process. If it doesn't, then back to the drawing board.

And what I mean by sustainable in this case, is not to be based on temporary artificial traffic data, but to hold up against a baseline from normal times. That should be the yardstick for something as radical and highly impactful as this.

Do I think after all the jigs and reels it will ever be built? No, I dont. I think the only game in town is the Promenade route.

tomasrojo · 26-02-2021 04:18PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Don't forget An Bord Pleanála will issue a determination on the planning process that should have gone along with this. The High Court will likely defer to that and it will take a lot longer than April.

It's not clear from the news reports that ABP has to rule on it. Has a decision been made on that? I mean by someone who isn't you?

26-02-2021 04:32PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Don't forget An Bord Pleanála will issue a determination on the planning process that should have gone along with this. The High Court will likely defer to that and it will take a lot longer than April.

So, if the Council's scheme is sustainable in principle, it should withstand a proper planning process. If it doesn't, then back to the drawing board.

And what I mean by sustainable in this case, is not to be based on temporary artificial traffic data, but to hold up against a baseline from normal times. That should be the yardstick for something as radical and highly impactful as this.

Do I think after all the jigs and reels it will ever be built? No, I dont. I think the only game in town is the Promenade route.

This is not what was decided today.

The applicants attempted to block the works at the last minute with an ex parte application to halt works pending a judical review of the case. This was not granted and the hearing was today with both parties. They judge granted the halt today pending the outcome of the judicial review.

They don't have much of a leg to stand on in this review but they are just using any delaying tactic at this stage.

Thelonious Monk · 26-02-2021 04:42PM

Well at least if it goes ahead in April the weather might be nicer, and it could look like a resounding success if it's thronged with families on bikes every day. Mannix's nightmares being realised.

Seth Brundle · 26-02-2021 04:47PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

I think the only game in town is the Promenade route.

:rolleyes:

Larbre34 · 26-02-2021 04:52PM

ronoc wrote: »

This is not what was decided today.

The applicants attempted to block the works at the last minute with an ex parte application to halt works pending a judical review of the case. This was not granted and the hearing was today with both parties. They judge granted the halt today pending the outcome of the judicial review.

They don't have much of a leg to stand on in this review but they are just using any delaying tactic at this stage.

Did I say anything was decided today?

Larbre34 · 26-02-2021 04:52PM

Seth Brundle wrote: »

:rolleyes:

Get used to it.

26-02-2021 04:57PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Did I say anything was decided today?

I'm sorry, I mistakenly assumed you were making an argument in good faith.

markpb · 26-02-2021 05:04PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Don't forget An Bord Pleanála will issue a determination on the planning process that should have gone along with this. The High Court will likely defer to that and it will take a lot longer than April.

I'm going to take that with a pinch of salt. It's barely 24 hours since you were confident that the injunction would involve telling DCC to restore all the changes (vandalism apparently) they had already made. That has not happened. Before that you were confidently asserting that TII would tell DCC to stop the project because the port and Brexit or something. Then something about a school blocking the project because you think truck drivers can't turn right. Those did not happen. And let's not forget this:

Larbre34 wrote: »

Besides, the case has been taken by two individuals, not the organisation(s) who raised the 21k. I have no knowledge directly, but that funding could be paying planning consultants or other indirect costs around the issue and make no direct impact on legal costs.

Larbre34 wrote: »

At the discretion of the legal team, some issues were put into the JR request, other issues directly related to planning regs are in the Section 5 to An Bord Pleanála. All aspects will be reviewed in these combined processes.

Which is it, you're not involved at all or you're aware of decisions that the legal team made? Your previous claims that you just want the council to follow due process are very laudable. The NIMBYs taking/supporting the court case are doing the same. They're concerned about due process, about poor cyclists getting covid, about the transparency behind a public consultation process and who knows what else. It would be a lot easier to believe if you and they came out and said they don't want the cycle lane there. Everything else is muck being flung at a wall.

Thelonious Monk · 26-02-2021 05:37PM

So is the S2S plan or whatever scuppered by this now? Were there ever any plans on how they'd tackle this stretch before covid?

tomasrojo · 26-02-2021 06:02PM

markpb wrote: »

It would be a lot easier to believe if you and they came out and said they don't want the cycle lane there. Everything else is muck being flung at a wall.

It is a recurring phenomenon, along with "We're totally in favour of encouraging cycling and walking, but ...". There doesn't seem to be any sign that the groups set up to oppose these schemes are in favour of schemes of that type in any meaningful way. It's mostly about loss of parking, loss of right to drive in a particular direction, or in other cases, not this one, keeping people from outside the neighbourhood out.

Thelonious Monk · 26-02-2021 06:02PM

This is gas

https://twitter.com/DublinPedaller/status/1365307117880639490

Cycle infrastructure planned for south Dublin

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