What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

24-02-2021 03:55PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

I doubt Oxford would have gone as far as preparing a contract with Merck contract which went against their stated aim of non-exclusivity. It would be interesting to know if further negotiations were allowed to have the offending clauses removed.

In any case, the issue still remains of how do AZ square off their CEOs claims of priority production for the UK with the clause in their EU contract stating that they have no other contractual commitments which would impede supplying the EU.

The section on UK Supply Chain is heavily redacted in the UK contract, but I would guess that it talks about priority for the UK from this channel, but only relates to UK production.

The UK government invested in the Oxford Biomedica (Production) and Workhardt (filling) plants to ensure they had continuity of supply. I presume this investment was on the basis that they received the first x million doses.

What AZ do with the their plants in the rest of europe, or indeed the rest of the world is entirely up to them and if they felt confident that they could produce sufficient volumes at these plants, then saying they have no other contractual obligations that would impede their performance is totally fine.

Dyr · 24-02-2021 04:10PM

Comparison of AZ contracts here, looks like UK dotted the i's and crossed the t's as well as having the advantage of the contract being under british law rather than belgian...

https://www.politico.eu/article/the-key-differences-between-the-eu-and-uk-astrazeneca-contracts/

Bass Reeves · 24-02-2021 04:29PM

Some interesting new on the J&J vaccine. It's looks the business for a one shot jab. It's ver effective against seveare COVID. I think we are supposed to get I think we are supposed to get 900 k of them.on Q2. May not be right but every one we get is a person vaccinated

AngeloArgue · 24-02-2021 04:32PM

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-eu-astrazeneca/exclusive-astrazeneca-to-miss-second-quarter-eu-vaccine-supply-target-by-half-eu-official-idINKBN2AO07O?edition-redirect=in

Did the Department of Health change it's vaccine rollout forecast for AstraZeneca because of reports in the media from an anonymous source or were they informed of cut of supply by the EU?

The company is saying that the supply will be fulfilled and the EU are reportedly saying "no comment"

What a mess

Stark · 24-02-2021 04:42PM

No harm using a conservative estimate in the projections given to the public. Based on the saga so far, we'll probably hear news of another delay in a month or so.

AngeloArgue · 24-02-2021 04:44PM

AngeloArgue wrote: »

https://www.reuters.com/article/health-coronavirus-eu-astrazeneca/exclusive-astrazeneca-to-miss-second-quarter-eu-vaccine-supply-target-by-half-eu-official-idINKBN2AO07O?edition-redirect=in

Did the Department of Health change it's vaccine rollout forecast for AstraZeneca because of reports in the media from an anonymous source or were they informed of cut of supply by the EU?

The company is saying that the supply will be fulfilled and the EU are reportedly saying "no comment"

What a mess

It turns out that yet another EU anonymous source "strongly questioned" the figures that were given to Reuters

https://www.rte.ie/news/coronavirus/2021/0223/1198890-eu-astrazeneca-vaccine/

NeuralNetwork · 24-02-2021 04:48PM

The Reuters article is a bit of a mess too:

“AstraZeneca’s vaccine was authorised in late January and some EU member states such as Hungary are also using COVID-19 shots developed in China and Russia.”

As far as I’m aware ONLY Hungary broke off from the EU programme and also authorised medicines that the EMA hasn’t even had application for authorisation for.

The article implies that’s widespread in the EU, rather than that Hungary has a semi detached relationship with the EU and has been moving closer to Russia.

brickster69 · 24-02-2021 05:03PM

Bambi wrote: »

Comparison of AZ contracts here, looks like UK dotted the i's and crossed the t's as well as having the advantage of the contract being under british law rather than belgian...

https://www.politico.eu/article/the-key-differences-between-the-eu-and-uk-astrazeneca-contracts/

That is the point with all of this nationalistic bollox. The fact is the UK Government for all it's mistakes it had on controlling the virus, actually set the whole vaccine thing up from nothing.

Oxford did research it, only because they were working on SAR's for a long time but they struggled to make enough themselves to even trial it. The doses they did manage had to be flown by private jet to other locations to ensure they would get there safely.

Probably once things were looking promising the Government got behind it and brought in people with knowledge in that area to take it forward. Even AZ have never been involved with making a vaccine before, so to get it to this point in 10 months or so has been amazing really.

The whole reporting thing has been 100% political even a blind man can see that. Yet, do yo notice there is never any reporting on the good it will do for the millions of people around the planet, whose lives will probably be saved.

And that is what certain people do not like, probably in time the UK itself might actually get the recognition and thanks that probably it deserves. Without even making a penny.

fly_agaric · 24-02-2021 05:05PM

Stark wrote: »

No harm using a conservative estimate in the projections given to the public. Based on the saga so far, we'll probably hear news of another delay in a month or so.

Yes, better to be cautious. This was posted earlier in thread (few pages ago?):

https://www.politico.eu/article/astrazeneca-insists-its-on-track-to-meet-eu-second-quarter-vaccine-targets/

One bit of it interested me.

The company projected it could provide 30 million doses in 2020, 90 million in the first quarter of 2021 and 180 million in the second.

At this stage AstraZeneca is working to increase productivity in its EU supply chain and to continue to make use of its global capability in order to achieve delivery of 180 million doses to the EU in the second quarter," a spokesperson for the company said Tuesday night.

Half of the doses should come from the company's EU supply chain, the spokesperson said, while the other half will come from other countries. AstraZeneca did not specify which countries.

I haven't been following all the details but that sounds like 90 million doses from some unspecificed place which sounds a lot. Seems optimistic (and you'd hope it wouldn't involve leaving someone else unexpectedly short, given the huge demand for these vaccines). I suppose they could be getting large volumes out of UK plants (?) + think they will soon have enough product over to begin to send some to the EU without impairing UKs vaccination drive.

AngeloArgue · 24-02-2021 05:11PM

Stark wrote: »

No harm using a conservative estimate in the projections given to the public. Based on the saga so far, we'll probably hear news of another delay in a month or so.

But where are these figures coming from?

A anonymous EU source told Reuters news agency that the EU would be getting 40 million doses of AZ in the second quarter instead of the 180 million contracted.

At the same time the Irish department of health readjusts its figures for administering the AZ vaccine downwards. Donnelly tweets that they have taken the "reduced" supply into consideration.

The company strongly denies the figures.

Official EU spokespersons say they are working with the company on supply and distribution but do not mention such a drastic cut in supply.

Other anonymous EU sources strongly refute the figures that were given to Reuters.

Where did the Department of Health source their figures in their revision downwards of the number of AZ vaccines they project being available?

fly_agaric · 24-02-2021 05:21PM

AngeloArgue wrote: »

Where did the Department of Health source their figures in their revision downwards of the number of AZ vaccines they project being available?

You'd assume it is the EU at some point along the line (?), I mean they are ordering the vaccines after all.

Such conflicting/confused reports in the media suggest (to me) there's still semi private discussions/arguments going on between the company and the EU about this order of vaccines and (possibly) nobody knows at this point exactly what they will provide.

Hope for the best I suppose.

24-02-2021 05:30PM

brickster69 wrote: »

That is the point with all of this nationalistic bollox. The fact is the UK Government for all it's mistakes it had on controlling the virus, actually set the whole vaccine thing up from nothing.

Oxford did research it, only because they were working on SAR's for a long time but they struggled to make enough themselves to even trial it. The doses they did manage had to be flown by private jet to other locations to ensure they would get there safely.

Probably once things were looking promising the Government got behind it and brought in people with knowledge in that area to take it forward. Even AZ have never been involved with making a vaccine before, so to get it to this point in 10 months or so has been amazing really.

The whole reporting thing has been 100% political even a blind man can see that. Yet, do yo notice there is never any reporting on the good it will do for the millions of people around the planet, whose lives will probably be saved.

And that is what certain people do not like, probably in time the UK itself might actually get the recognition and thanks that probably it deserves. Without even making a penny.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-56180161

Ghana has become the first country to receive coronavirus vaccines through the Covax vaccine-sharing initiative.

A delivery of 600,000 doses of the AstraZeneca vaccine arrived in Accra on Wednesday. The first recipients are due to be healthcare workers.

The Covax scheme aims to reduce the divide between rich countries and poorer nations unable to buy doses.

The programme is planning to deliver about two billion vaccine doses globally by the end of the year.

Ghana, which has a population of over 30m, was chosen as the first recipient of the free vaccines after promising quick distribution.

Vaccinations are expected to start in Ghana next week, and, as well as health workers, those over 60, people with underlying health conditions, and senior officials are due to be prioritised.

The vaccines delivered to Accra were produced by the Serum Institute of India and developed by AstraZeneca and Oxford University. The vaccine has been approved by the World Health Organization (WHO) and its roll-out in Ghana is not part of a trial.

Strazdas · 24-02-2021 05:34PM

AngeloArgue wrote: »

But where are these figures coming from?

A anonymous EU source told Reuters news agency that the EU would be getting 40 million doses of AZ in the second quarter instead of the 180 million contracted.

At the same time the Irish department of health readjusts its figures for administering the AZ vaccine downwards. Donnelly tweets that they have taken the "reduced" supply into consideration.

The company strongly denies the figures.

Official EU spokespersons say they are working with the company on supply and distribution but do not mention such a drastic cut in supply.

Other anonymous EU sources strongly refute the figures that were given to Reuters.

Where did the Department of Health source their figures in their revision downwards of the number of AZ vaccines they project being available?

Apparently, the revised downward figures were already known to the EU, meaning Reuters messed up with their story. This explains how Ireland already knew about the AZ numbers and how they didn't have to do any last minute adjustments yesterday.

Tippbhoy1 · 24-02-2021 05:46PM

Aegir wrote: »

The section on UK Supply Chain is heavily redacted in the UK contract, but I would guess that it talks about priority for the UK from this channel, but only relates to UK production.

The UK government invested in the Oxford Biomedica (Production) and Workhardt (filling) plants to ensure they had continuity of supply. I presume this investment was on the basis that they received the first x million doses.

What AZ do with the their plants in the rest of europe, or indeed the rest of the world is entirely up to them and if they felt confident that they could produce sufficient volumes at these plants, then saying they have no other contractual obligations that would impede their performance is totally fine.

A good few presumptions in there.
They key part of the whole contract discussion is redacted. I’m not sure what AZ does in European factories or elsewhere should be any different to what AZ, a private company, does in the UK. But they aren’t acting like a private company in this and that point seems to be ignored a lot. Uk gave money to Oxford, well done. Uk gave money to AZ, so did the EU. Does this mean that the Uk can tell the private company what to do...seems to be the case from a UK perspective.

I don’t really have an issue with UK nationalising production. The EU has never had a health brief like this, UK managed the vaccine plan very well. I do have an issue with AZ not flagging the risk to the EU and effectively lying, and what’s clear is the UK had a significant insight and control over AZ and are no doubt are complicit in this lie. It’s set up in such a way as there is plausible deniability for the UK in this. At least if AZ were more open then expectations could have been managed sooner in the EU and maybe some contingencies enacted with other vaccine suppliers. Tell the EU they’re second in line, fair enough but reading between the lines I’d say the shortfall only became apparent over time after the contract was agreed. It’s at that point it because underhand.

It’s becoming clearer and clearer as time goes by that AZ can’t be trusted at best and at worst are incompetent for the EU to be putting such dependency on them and something as serious as vaccines. It’s no surprise with this sort of carry on that the efficacy of that vaccine is being called into question Luckily the majority of the EU portfolio isn’t with AZ. Hopefully when J&J comes on stream we can focus most of our energies there and we see the back of this sorry debacle. AZ have backed a particular horse either by choice or political pressure. I feel sorry for the guys in Oxford who were very noble with their intentions until this happened.

24-02-2021 05:57PM

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

A good few presumptions in there.
They key part of the whole contract discussion is redacted. I’m not sure what AZ does in European factories or elsewhere should be any different to what AZ, a private company, does in the UK. But they aren’t acting like a private company in this and that point seems to be ignored a lot. Uk gave money to Oxford, well done. Uk gave money to AZ, so did the EU. Does this mean that the Uk can tell the private company what to do...seems to be the case from a UK perspective.

I don’t really have an issue with UK nationalising production. The EU has never had a health brief like this, UK managed the vaccine plan very well. I do have an issue with AZ not flagging the risk to the EU and effectively lying, and what’s clear is the UK had a significant insight and control over AZ and are no doubt are complicit in this lie. It’s set up in such a way as there is plausible deniability for the UK in this. At least if AZ were more open then expectations could have been managed sooner in the EU and maybe some contingencies enacted with other vaccine suppliers. Tell the EU they’re second in line, fair enough but reading between the lines I’d say the shortfall only became apparent over time after the contract was agreed. It’s at that point it because underhand.

It’s becoming clearer and clearer as time goes by that AZ can’t be trusted at best and at worst are incompetent for the EU to be putting such dependency on them and something as serious as vaccines. It’s no surprise with this sort of carry on that the efficacy of that vaccine is being called into question Luckily the majority of the EU portfolio isn’t with AZ. Hopefully when J&J comes on stream we can focus most of our energies there and we see the back of this sorry debacle. AZ have backed a particular horse either by choice or political pressure. I feel sorry for the guys in Oxford who were very noble with their intentions until this happened.

May I suggest some cream and sugar to go with those sour grapes?

You're looking for something that simply isn't there. Have a read of the politico article posted earlier.

If you can't be bothered, I'll sum it up for you.

The UK got their **** together a lot quicker than the EU and didn't just place an order and walk away hoping it would turn up, they took a very active role in the ramping up of production at the Oxford and Wrexham facilities to make sure the supply of vaccines actually happened.

I know this doesn't fit the narrative some people want it to fit, but that's life, bhoy.

brickster69 · 24-02-2021 06:01PM

Pro. Van Tam even shuts up Piers Morgan this morning.

https://twitter.com/GMB/status/1364491754041450497

BorneTobyWilde · 24-02-2021 06:06PM

UK took a gamble with peoples lives in approving vaccine ahead of time, and just like the Brexit deal not a single person actually read it before approving it, they done the same with vaccine data .
Of course it could have went wrong, still can, early days, they'll have the whole nation pumped full of a vaccine that could in a few weeks show to be very harmful in many ways unseen so far.

24-02-2021 06:09PM

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

UK took a gamble with peoples lives in approving vaccine ahead of time, and just like the Brexit deal not a single person actually read it before approving it, they done the same with vaccine data .
Of course it could have went wrong, still can, early days, they'll have the whole nation pumped full of a vaccine that could in a few weeks show to be very harmful in many ways unseen so far.

Don’t forget the Bill Gates microchips

Tippbhoy1 · 24-02-2021 06:26PM

Aegir wrote: »

May I suggest some cream and sugar to go with those sour grapes?

You're looking for something that simply isn't there. Have a read of the politico article posted earlier.

If you can't be bothered, I'll sum it up for you.

The UK got their **** together a lot quicker than the EU and didn't just place an order and walk away hoping it would turn up, they took a very active role in the ramping up of production at the Oxford and Wrexham facilities to make sure the supply of vaccines actually happened.

I know this doesn't fit the narrative some people want it to fit, but that's life, bhoy.

Good man.
As per my post, I don’t have an issue with them nationalising their supply, in fact I even praised their proactiveness. it’s the deceit while they went about it that I find disgusting. You can flip flop between AZ being a private company when the argument suits and it being a national supply other times, all you want, but it won’t wash with me.

When the sh1t hit the fan, the UK did what was best in the short term for the UK, and told a few lies along the way via their mouthpiece AZ. I think you agree with me there seeing as you make no differentiation between a private company manufacturing vaccines and the UK, so everything AZ does is in unison with UK government.

At least man up and say it how it is and less of the flip flopping ...but I suppose you can fool a lot of people a lot of the time.

brickster69 · 24-02-2021 06:35PM

BorneTobyWilde wrote: »

UK took a gamble with peoples lives in approving vaccine ahead of time, and just like the Brexit deal not a single person actually read it before approving it, they done the same with vaccine data .
Of course it could have went wrong, still can, early days, they'll have the whole nation pumped full of a vaccine that could in a few weeks show to be very harmful in many ways unseen so far.

You see political bollox. Countries do nothing themselves for 10 months with vaccines, rely on others to do things for them, sit and waits for delivery and then starts screaming when it does not turn up on time.

Pete_Cavan · 24-02-2021 07:08PM

brickster69 wrote: »

You see political bollox. Countries do nothing themselves for 10 months with vaccines, rely on others to do things for them, sit and waits for delivery and then starts screaming when it does not turn up on time.

This is just pathetic, I don't know how this can be considered an acceptable standard of post. It completely ignores the multiple contracts the EU has for supply of vaccines (mostly the same companies as UK), has invested huge sums of money into vaccine research and development (including €360m upfront to AZ alone) and seems to assume that contracts mean nothing and if the company doesn't deliver that the receiver has no right to complain. Just ignore reality and make up your own scenario to suit your own prejudices.

brickster69 · 24-02-2021 07:32PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

This is just pathetic, I don't know how this can be considered an acceptable standard of post. It completely ignores the multiple contracts the EU has for supply of vaccines (mostly the same companies as UK), has invested huge sums of money into vaccine research and development (including €360m upfront to AZ alone) and seems to assume that contracts mean nothing and if the company doesn't deliver that the receiver has no right to complain. Just ignore reality and make up your own scenario to suit your own prejudices.

The EU invested money to increase capacity in the EU based companies that AZ were going to use because they wanted production to be based in the EU. Which is why it's buying price was so low.

Contracts stated " estimated delivery dates " using best reasonable efforts, not guaranteed time frames and also waived any legal action proceedings against the company. It sounds like they are working together to boost production which no doubt will happen shortly. AZ also accepted liability which no other company has accepted.

EU spent seven times less per person than the UK & US on R&D

https://twitter.com/F0XY0NE/status/1355534039990603786

AngeloArgue · 24-02-2021 07:59PM

Ireland projected to receive 818,000 AZ vaccines in Q2

That ties in roughly with our cut of the 90 million vaccines the company are stating they are going to produce in Europe for that quarter.

The company has stated that they are going to source another 90 million from outside of Europe.

So the 818,000 could be the lowest estimation?

Should the company continue to supply European nations that are refusing to use it?

24-02-2021 08:02PM

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

Good man.
As per my post, I don’t have an issue with them nationalising their supply, in fact I even praised their proactiveness. it’s the deceit while they went about it that I find disgusting. You can flip flop between AZ being a private company when the argument suits and it being a national supply other times, all you want, but it won’t wash with me.

When the sh1t hit the fan, the UK did what was best in the short term for the UK, and told a few lies along the way via their mouthpiece AZ. I think you agree with me there seeing as you make no differentiation between a private company manufacturing vaccines and the UK, so everything AZ does is in unison with UK government.

At least man up and say it how it is and less of the flip flopping ...but I suppose you can fool a lot of people a lot of the time.

There is no flip flopping. You need to get this idea of nationalisation out of your head.

What the U.K. has done (I am presuming) is ring fenced certain manufacturing facilities in the U.K. for U.K. only supply. They can do this because they paid for those facilities to be converted to enable production to take place.

brickster69 · 24-02-2021 08:28PM

Aegir wrote: »

There is no flip flopping. You need to get this idea of nationalisation out of your head.

What the U.K. has done (I am presuming) is ring fenced certain manufacturing facilities in the U.K. for U.K. only supply. They can do this because they paid for those facilities to be converted to enable production to take place.

Good point. You never hear of anyone complaining about America only supplying itself with Pfizer and not supplying the Eu do you?

fly_agaric · 24-02-2021 08:41PM

brickster69 wrote: »

Good point. You never hear of anyone complaining about America only supplying itself with Pfizer and not supplying the Eu do you?

I think you do (Edit: sorry, to be clear, not about the US supplying the EU specifically, more the same argument(s) about countries retaining all supply of vaccine manufactured locally, while others go without or go short).

It is the same thing (America First vs Make Britain Great Again?) but done a bit more nakedly & in your face than the UK as befits a superpower. I mean the US has a gigantic Pharma/Biopharma industry & will not need to import vaccine from anyone else as far as I am aware (?)

I think people (outside the UK and US - call that "sour grapes" if you like!) will see it for what it is really.

Of course this applies to the EU too vs other countries. Even if it has been slower than the US/UK to vaccinate it is likely it will get large quantities of supplies well before some poorer nations that have been hit as hard or harder by the disease.

brickster69 · 24-02-2021 08:52PM

fly_agaric wrote: »

I think you do (Edit: sorry not about the US supplying the EU specifically, more the same argument about countries retaining all supply of vaccine they manufacture while others go without or go short).

It is the same thing (America First vs Make Britain Great Again?) but done a bit more nakedly & in your face than the UK as befits a superpower. I mean the US has a gigantic Pharma/Biopharma industry & will not need to import vaccine from anyone else as far as I am aware (?)

I think people (outside the UK and US - call that "sour grapes" if you like!) will see it for what it is really.

Yes, but the USA never developed the vaccine themselves. They just part funded it with the EU, took exclusivity of it and started making it themselves. And if anyone wants to buy it from them you negotiate a price. That's why they call it the Pfizer vaccine.

fly_agaric · 24-02-2021 09:06PM

brickster69 wrote: »

Yes, but the USA never developed the vaccine themselves. They just part funded it with the EU, took exclusivity of it and started making it themselves. And if anyone wants to buy it from them you negotiate a price. That's why they call it the Pfizer vaccine.

Not sure what you're getting at here or how who did the R&D is very relevant?
The point is the US, like the UK and only a few other countries has the companies and industrial base to produce large amounts of Covid-19 vaccine locally.
That is locked away and can't be "bought" for service of others until the US is done with it's entire vaccination programme, or the US government decides otherwise (e.g. they decide to release some supply, most likely to Canada/Mexico I'd imagine when they are deeper into vaccinating their own population).

brickster69 · 24-02-2021 09:07PM

fly_agaric wrote: »

(Edit: sorry, to be clear, not about the US supplying the EU specifically, more the same argument(s) about countries retaining all supply of vaccine manufactured locally, while others go without or go short).

Hey, fair play to BionTech for coming up with a great vaccine. They certainly deserve getting rewarded financially. They will of put a fair few Euro's into it themselves at the start and will deserve a share of the profit they get from it as will Pfizer for backing them.

It just happens to be a different policy from Oxford to to insist on it being a humanitarian basis, that's all.

24-02-2021 09:09PM

fly_agaric wrote: »

I think you do (Edit: sorry, to be clear, not about the US supplying the EU specifically, more the same argument(s) about countries retaining all supply of vaccine manufactured locally, while others go without or go short).

It is the same thing (America First vs Make Britain Great Again?) but done a bit more nakedly & in your face than the UK as befits a superpower. I mean the US has a gigantic Pharma/Biopharma industry & will not need to import vaccine from anyone else as far as I am aware (?)

I think people (outside the UK and US - call that "sour grapes" if you like!) will see it for what it is really.

Of course this applies to the EU too vs other countries. Even if it has been slower than the US/UK to vaccinate it is likely it will get large quantities of supplies well before some poorer nations that have been hit as hard or harder by the disease.

It was the complete opposite in the UK’s case. They have little in the way of vaccine manufacturing capacity, so they would have been dependent on importing a vaccine just as they were with PPE. The world became a complete nationalistic cluster **** over PPE and they weren’t going to let this happen again, so they set about creating their own capability. Hence the investment in Oxford Biodynamica, Valvena in Scotland and Fuji film in Stockton on Tees.

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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