What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

18-02-2021 10:44PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

We know that the UK didn't only get vaccines produced in the UK, the first couple of million they got came from EU sites. That was before AZ dropped the bombshell of only giving EU 30%. The EU then wanted those doses produced in the EU to be replaced by doses produced in the UK.

AZ could also supply EU from UK sites but if their contract with the UK prevents this, then AZ should have informed the EU. It would raise serious questions in relation to clause 13 (e) of the EU contract.

I don’t see how. AZ would simply say that their plan was to get the Eu based plants up to speed and negate any need to use U.K. plants.

brickster69 · 18-02-2021 11:02PM

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

Absolutely AZ were under no obligation.
Legally, I’m sure they will be fine.

The English postman who didn’t help the old woman who slipped on the ice the other day, did he break any law because I don’t think it’s ended well for him.

People can hide behind legals all they want. It’s like criminals walking out of court that everyone knows is guilty, just because a law wasn’t broken or they couldn’t prove it doesn’t mean it was ok. I have no issue with AZ deciding to fulfill the UK first, I do have an issue with not flagging this to another customer, telling bad news late, and using national borders to protect supply after they’d already used facilities outside their own borders.

Regardless, people and nations don’t forget. This isn’t over for anyone yet, for the UKs sake I hope they don’t need any help down the line

Yes that is one side of the coin. But do you think that it was right for German officials to give false information to well respected newspapers saying AZ was 8.5% efficient in older people. Print that story and then double down on it, then not correct it.

Then the President of France to come out and say it is " quasi effective. " in older people without proof.

Then the German health minister to come out the day before EMA approval was due to come out and say they "will not recommend it to be taken by older people and he expects the EMA to do likewise "

Then despite EMA approval saying it has been approved for all ages then certain countries make it's own decision not to approve it for older people. Which fair enough is up to them.

What possible logical motive do you think was behind those comments ?

How many older people will of died through that political bull..it in the last month or so in the EU ?

Personally i don't care if AZ is used in older people at all in the EU and would be more than happy for them to send it back and then it could be sent to others more in need.

18-02-2021 11:10PM

brickster69 wrote: »

Yes that is one side of the coin. But do you think that it was right for German officials to give false information to well respected newspapers saying AZ was 8.5% efficient in older people. Print that story and then double down on it, then not correct it.

Then the President of France to come out and say it is " quasi effective. " in older people without proof.

Then the German health minister to come out the day before EMA approval was due to come out and say they "will not recommend it to be taken by older people and he expects the EMA to do likewise "

Then despite EMA approval saying it has been approved for all ages then certain countries make it's own decision not to approve it for older people. Which fair enough is up to them.

What possible logical motive do you think was behind those comments ?

How many older people will of died through that political bull..it in the last month or so in the EU ?

Personally i don't care if AZ is used in older people at all in the EU and would be more than happy for them to send it back and then it could be sent to others more in need.

With the huge numbers of lobbyists the pharma industry has in and around Brussels, it does make you wonder what the source is of these bogus claims.

Tippbhoy1 · 18-02-2021 11:20PM

brickster69 wrote: »

Yes that is one side of the coin. But do you think that it was right for German officials to give false information to well respected newspapers saying AZ was 8.5% efficient in older people. Print that story and then double down on it, then not correct it.

Then the President of France to come out and say it is " quasi effective. " in older people without proof.

Then the German health minister to come out the day before EMA approval was due to come out and say they "will not recommend it to be taken by older people and he expects the EMA to do likewise "

Then despite EMA approval saying it has been approved for all ages then certain countries make it's own decision not to approve it for older people. Which fair enough is up to them.

What possible logical motive do you think was behind those comments ?

How many older people will of died through that political bull..it in the last month or so in the EU ?

Personally i don't care if AZ is used in older people at all in the EU and would be more than happy for them to send it back and then it could be sent to others more in need.

The incident in Germany was fully clarified within 24 hours and it was not like it was a national statement.

Data to date suggests the vaccine is less effective in older people. As are all the vaccines as a matter of fact. Just because it is deemed safe does not equate to effective. For context, South Africa have stopped their rollout and the FDA are looking like they won’t approve the AZ vaccine any time soon now either. Not a peep from the Brits about this.

I would agree with you to a point that there was more than just science going on with some of the commentary across the EU but the fact of the matter is there is a lack of data on efficacy with older people. AZ drew first blood here with the EU. How many lives will be lost because of this, if the contract was honoured there would be a lot less lives lost in the EU that’s for sure. Will some vulnerable people die because of EU decisions on efficacy and application, hopefully not. At least it focused attention to ensure the good stuff is given to the most vulnerable, which is what is happening now. If AZ had dealt with this matter in a more balanced and fair way, the message might have been managed more favourably for everyone but we can’t change the past now. The lines have been drawn, we will look back in them and see how it ends up

brickster69 · 18-02-2021 11:32PM

You know what. The EU think they are in control of all this. They are irrelevant, the companies in charge are the big US manufacturers now and the EU gave them exclusivity. Pfizer, Moderna, J & J. The Eu are just customers waiting to be supplied.

brickster69 · 18-02-2021 11:53PM

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

The incident in Germany was fully clarified within 24 hours and it was not like it was a national statement.

It was put in the equivalent of the German Financial Times for gods sake not the Daily Star

It was 4 days later they changed it and still not retracted it fully. Meanwhile 700,000 AZ vaccines are sat in fridges because people are scared to take it. Nevermind countries who read this and think it is their only hope to get out of this at the moment. Imagine how much distrust was created in that time globally ?

Again, why would people slander a non profit making vaccine which obviously works well and saves lives ?

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n414

brickster69 · 19-02-2021 12:01AM

And you know what the funny thing is. The leader of the German opposition party has said he will get vaccinated with AZ on national TV next Friday and has invited Merkel, The German President and the German Health minister to join him to allay fears about AZ to the public.

McGiver · 19-02-2021 01:11AM

embraer170 wrote:

While it certainly served as a good warning to other manufacturers that might try anything, it did not do the EU reputation much good. The coverage of VDL and the Health Commissioner was pretty dreadful. It's a crisis many would like to forget.

It was primarily that. Need to keep them in the line. There's 6 more other suppliers so the EC couldn't let this just go. Contracts have to be honoured else the EC will fight back - that was the message.

As for the reputation - the issue is grossly inflated in the UK media. Nobody cares on the continent, the EC is criticised in the German media but it has nothing to do with the AZ, it's a criticism of the whole situation which is fully expected from Germany. If they went alone they'd probably have been better off as they're the largest economy in the EU, with good reserves and with excellent governance - they would bid over everyone else and would get vaccines anyhow. They're paying by the solidarity with the eu27. It's the eu22, the small to medium countries, that wanted a unified central procurement via the EC as they'd have no chance against the US, UK and EU5 (Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Poland) in a bidding war.

McGiver · 19-02-2021 01:15AM

brickster69 wrote:

You know what. The EU think they are in control of all this. They are irrelevant, the companies in charge are the big US manufacturers now and the EU gave them exclusivity. Pfizer, Moderna, J & J. The Eu are just customers waiting to be supplied.

Apart from the fact that Biontech and Curevac are German and many of the top pharma vaccine manufacturing sites are in the EU.

The EU is us. I don't know who you are, if you call the EU "they".

McGiver · 19-02-2021 01:19AM

brickster69 wrote:

And you know what the funny thing is. The leader of the German opposition party has said he will get vaccinated with AZ on national TV next Friday and has invited Merkel, The German President and the German Health minister to join him to allay fears about AZ to the public.

Link please. I'll comment on your statement once I've read that link in German

Tippbhoy1 · 19-02-2021 08:12AM

brickster69 wrote: »

It was put in the equivalent of the German Financial Times for gods sake not the Daily Star

It was 4 days later they changed it and still not retracted it fully. Meanwhile 700,000 AZ vaccines are sat in fridges because people are scared to take it. Nevermind countries who read this and think it is their only hope to get out of this at the moment. Imagine how much distrust was created in that time globally ?

Again, why would people slander a non profit making vaccine which obviously works well and saves lives ?

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n414

Who is they you keep on about? If some crank in the daily mail says something and the EU get outraged, should we get a national apology from Boris? Because there would be 5 of them a day if so.

Does it obviously work well? What’s your definition of work well? Why aren’t South Africa using it? Why hasn’t the US approved it? Did the trial cover sufficient numbers of over 65s in it? Why doesn’t Sweden use it on over 65’s, seeing as they are a uk Swedish company. Is this all down to the EU? The EU EMA approved it, some countries have taken their own decisions, is this the fault of “they” or the EU? If someone who is a citizen of the EU, or one country who is in the EU decide to do something, is it the fault of the EU every time?

No one was ever scared to take it. There were and remains doubts over its efficacy, particularly in older people. Regardless, the EU have adjusted the strategy and are applying it slightly differently than previously planned. It is still being used. Slander-will you get over yourself. I’m amazed you think the EU have such global influence all of a shot, seeing as you are obviously not a fan and no doubt consider it a soon to be failed entity.

One minute you are saying the pharmacy companies are uncontrollable private entities and it’s no ones business what they decide to do, you don’t care if the EU use it, the next you are taking like the UK own and control Astra Zeneca, which is it?

McGiver · 19-02-2021 09:10AM

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

I’m amazed you think the EU have such global influence all of a shot, seeing as you are obviously not a fan and no doubt consider it a soon to be failed entity.

Don't try to understand. Brexidiotism and Europhobic hard-left/hard-right ideology is illogical. EU is the universal boogeyman and everything applies to it based on the situation:
"Superstate" x About to collapse
Too slow x Too fast
Too protectionist x Too neoliberal
Too strong x Too weak

The Schroedinger's EU. It makes no sense.

Tippbhoy1 wrote: »

Who is they you keep on about? If some crank in the daily mail says something and the EU get outraged, should we get a national apology from Boris? Because there would be 5 of them a day if so.

That's all what it is. Weapon grade Daily Mail/Express jingoistic propaganda against Ireland, the EU, and all "lesser (in their eyes) nations". On the continent nobody cares about the UK nonsense press, or they laugh at it if they register it. Here, the UK press is spilling over, and given the serious decrease in quality (BBC is now pro-regime propaganda outlet as well) it is a serious danger to democracy and stability of this Republic, and should be treated as information warfare and removed from the public discourse.

What Germans think about the UK/Brexit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFU6ig6giwc

fly_agaric · 19-02-2021 09:53AM

McGiver wrote: »

That's all what it is. Weapon grade Daily Mail/Express jingoistic propaganda against Ireland, the EU, and all "lesser (in their eyes) nations". On the continent nobody cares about the UK nonsense press, or they laugh at it if they register it. Here, the UK press is spilling over, and given the serious decrease in quality (BBC is now pro-regime propaganda outlet as well) it is a serious danger to democracy and stability of this Republic, and should be treated as information warfare and removed from the public discourse.

From outside looking in I think all the crowing about their own vaccination programme vs the EU went wider than the usual pro-Brexit/Anti-EU media in the UK.

In fairness it is the one aspect of Coronavirus response that the UK has handled well.

The UK government can leave the EU and set fire to its bridges as much as possible but it still cannot get some tug boats and tow the UK over to the US or the Far East.
The people they compare themselves to first will always be the other European countries (in the EU).

The UK has not been very at ease with itself lately so it is a good news story and if you can throw some mud at the old "enemy" the EU as well (the issue which has consumed UK politics until the pandemic now and caused most of said unease) great.

The thing that bugged me about the coverage of it all was this illusory high moral ground taken (over the EUs attempts to monitor vaccine exports after AstraZeneca shambles) while part of the reason for the UKs success in vaccinating fast is a tight rein kept by government on the local providers of their supply
while they also import whatever vaccines they can get.

19-02-2021 10:01AM

McGiver wrote: »

Don't try to understand. Brexidiotism and Europhobic hard-left/hard-right ideology is illogical. EU is the universal boogeyman and everything applies to it based on the situation:
"Superstate" x About to collapse
Too slow x Too fast
Too protectionist x Too neoliberal
Too strong x Too weak

The Schroedinger's EU. It makes no sense.

That's all what it is. Weapon grade Daily Mail/Express jingoistic propaganda against Ireland, the EU, and all "lesser (in their eyes) nations". On the continent nobody cares about the UK nonsense press, or they laugh at it if they register it. Here, the UK press is spilling over, and given the serious decrease in quality (BBC is now pro-regime propaganda outlet as well) it is a serious danger to democracy and stability of this Republic, and should be treated as information warfare and removed from the public discourse.

What Germans think about the UK/Brexit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFU6ig6giwc

from what I can see, the only person obsessed with the UK vaccination programme is you.

It's a little bit disturbing to be honest.

McGiver · 19-02-2021 10:37PM

Aegir wrote: »

from what I can see, the only person obsessed with the UK vaccination programme is you.

It's a little bit disturbing to be honest.

Do you have anything to add here?

NeuralNetwork · 20-02-2021 02:16AM

fly_agaric wrote: »

From outside looking in I think all the crowing about their own vaccination programme vs the EU went wider than the usual pro-Brexit/Anti-EU media in the UK.

In fairness it is the one aspect of Coronavirus response that the UK has handled well.

The UK government can leave the EU and set fire to its bridges as much as possible but it still cannot get some tug boats and tow the UK over to the US or the Far East.
The people they compare themselves to first will always be the other European countries (in the EU).

The UK has not been very at ease with itself lately so it is a good news story and if you can throw some mud at the old "enemy" the EU as well (the issue which has consumed UK politics until the pandemic now and caused most of said unease) great.

The thing that bugged me about the coverage of it all was this illusory high moral ground taken (over the EUs attempts to monitor vaccine exports after AstraZeneca shambles) while part of the reason for the UKs success in vaccinating fast is a tight rein kept by government on the local providers of their supply
while they also import whatever vaccines they can get.

Ireland’s fairly isolated from the British print media, at least historically and British broadcast media is a lot more balanced than print. We tend to have our window on the U.K. via TV much more than any other medium.

However, that’s changing due to tabloid political articles bleeding in on social media as talking points, but I don’t honestly think the English tabloids influence debate here very much at all. The usual scenario is they say something outrageous and cause a load of angry responses on Irish social media, usually directed straight back at them and often in utter disbelief at some utterly ignorant commentary or total misunderstand of Ireland, often based on stereotypes or from some notion of Ireland a century ago.

In general I think the U.K. tabloids and a lot of the Tories can only see the world as viewed through a prism of English nationalism and they tend to utterly flounder
when they try to apply to that outside their home turf. You can see it when they’ve tried to invoke Irish nationalism or have assumed there’s some Brexit dichotomy in Ireland to exploit, when in reality from an Irish perspective the Tories and the right wing English tabloids are just like a glimpse into a parallel universe and one that we just don’t really have any connection to.

I wouldn’t over estimate the relevance of British tabloids and jingoistic headlines beyond their own borders. Mostly they’re just looked at as some kind of bizarre comic books from abroad, including here.

20-02-2021 04:09PM

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

Ireland’s fairly isolated from the British print media, at least historically and British broadcast media is a lot more balanced than print. We tend to have our window on the U.K. via TV much more than any other medium.

However, that’s changing due to tabloid political articles bleeding in on social media as talking points, but I don’t honestly think the English tabloids influence debate here very much at all. The usual scenario is they say something outrageous and cause a load of angry responses on Irish social media, usually directed straight back at them and often in utter disbelief at some utterly ignorant commentary or total misunderstand of Ireland, often based on stereotypes or from some notion of Ireland a century ago.

In general I think the U.K. tabloids and a lot of the Tories can only see the world as viewed through a prism of English nationalism and they tend to utterly flounder
when they try to apply to that outside their home turf. You can see it when they’ve tried to invoke Irish nationalism or have assumed there’s some Brexit dichotomy in Ireland to exploit, when in reality from an Irish perspective the Tories and the right wing English tabloids are just like a glimpse into a parallel universe and one that we just don’t really have any connection to.

I wouldn’t over estimate the relevance of British tabloids and jingoistic headlines beyond their own borders. Mostly they’re just looked at as some kind of bizarre comic books from abroad, including here.

I’m not sure what this has to do with Astra Zeneca, but I’ll give my thoughts.

The mistake you are making is thinking that anyone in England gives a flying **** about what is happening in Ireland or the EU. If it hadn’t been for the commission throwing a tantrum, which raised a few eyebrows to be fair, no one would have noticed.

The crowing about the speed of the roll out is because targets were set that people thought unrealistic, but different parts of diverse communities are pulling together and making it work. This, of course, is met with the usual sour grapes on boards.ie.

brickster69 · 20-02-2021 05:16PM

AZ Contract released in full by Italian media. Link in the article

https://www.politico.eu/article/coronavirus-vaccine-europe-commission-contract-astrazeneca-ties-hands-lawsuits/

NeuralNetwork · 20-02-2021 08:12PM

Aegir wrote: »

I’m not sure what this has to do with Astra Zeneca, but I’ll give my thoughts.

The mistake you are making is thinking that anyone in England gives a flying **** about what is happening in Ireland or the EU. If it hadn’t been for the commission throwing a tantrum, which raised a few eyebrows to be fair, no one would have noticed.

The crowing about the speed of the roll out is because targets were set that people thought unrealistic, but different parts of diverse communities are pulling together and making it work. This, of course, is met with the usual sour grapes on boards.ie.

Well if you read the Daily Express for example it has more or less daily headlines about how the EU is in meltdown or panicking or Merkel is crying into her cornflakes for whatever reason.

You’re right. They really never pay any attention to the EU or ever make comparisons, particularly not government ministers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdnUlgbVCo8

There is hardly a day goes past when one of those papers doesn’t have some utter garbage about the impending collapse of the EU, the Euro or now the vaccine fiasco etc etc and they’re bot beyond creating caricatures of European or Irish politicians, entire countries and just making things up entirely.

So to say the majority of the U.K. media doesn’t care is absolute nonsense

There are papers in the U.K. that made good livings out of perpetuation “Euro myths” and anti EU diatribe and the PM was one of those journalists for many years and launched a career on it.

As for the rest of the EU, I consume quite a bit of French media and neither the U.K. nor Brexit tend to feature very much at all nor does the U.K. vaccine rollout.

There is a lot of concern about the “variant anglais de COVID” though.

To be quite honest though I’ve had my fill of British and Trump politics in 2020 to the point I seem to change channel anytime I see it mentioned.

If we keep on absorbing a message that the blip around AstraZeneca was an EU vaccine fiasco all we are doing is amplifying the same PR line out of Tory HQ.

robinph · 20-02-2021 08:59PM

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

Well if you read the Daily Express for example...

Nobody does. The only people who read newspapers are the talking heads on the TV news who then parrot out the headlines whilst we are eating our breakfast. If TV news didn't refer to print news media so much I doubt anyone would notice what any of the papers said.

20-02-2021 09:25PM

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

Well if you read the Daily Express for example it has more or less daily headlines about how the EU is in meltdown or panicking or Merkel is crying into her cornflakes for whatever reason.

You’re right. They really never pay any attention to the EU or ever make comparisons, particularly not government ministers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdnUlgbVCo8

There is hardly a day goes past when one of those papers doesn’t have some utter garbage about the impending collapse of the EU, the Euro or now the vaccine fiasco etc etc and they’re bot beyond creating caricatures of European or Irish politicians, entire countries and just making things up entirely.

So to say the majority of the U.K. media doesn’t care is absolute nonsense

There are papers in the U.K. that made good livings out of perpetuation “Euro myths” and anti EU diatribe and the PM was one of those journalists for many years and launched a career on it.

As for the rest of the EU, I consume quite a bit of French media and neither the U.K. nor Brexit tend to feature very much at all nor does the U.K. vaccine rollout.

There is a lot of concern about the “variant anglais de COVID” though.

To be quite honest though I’ve had my fill of British and Trump politics in 2020 to the point I seem to change channel anytime I see it mentioned.

If we keep on absorbing a message that the blip around AstraZeneca was an EU vaccine fiasco all we are doing is amplifying the same PR line out of Tory HQ.

Other than good old fashioned begrudgery, can you explain what your little rant has to do with Astra Zeneca?

NeuralNetwork · 20-02-2021 09:35PM

Aegir wrote: »

Other than good old fashioned begrudgery, can you explain what your little rant has to do with Astra Zeneca?

Perhaps re-read your own post:

Aegir wrote: »

The mistake you are making is thinking that anyone in England gives a flying **** about what is happening in Ireland or the EU. If it hadn’t been for the commission throwing a tantrum, which raised a few eyebrows to be fair, no one would have noticed.

The crowing about the speed of the roll out is because targets were set that people thought unrealistic, but different parts of diverse communities are pulling together and making it work. This, of course, is met with the usual sour grapes on boards.ie.

The coverage of AstraZeneca in media in the UK is highly relevant to this discussion, particularly in terms of how it's being interpreted in Ireland as there's bleed over from UK media and politics here due to proximity and a shared language and access to TV channels, online discussions etc in a way there isn't on the continent.

If you don't like my posts, there's a report button.

Dyr · 21-02-2021 10:27AM

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

There is hardly a day goes past when one of those papers doesn’t have some utter garbage about the impending collapse of the EU, the Euro or now the vaccine fiasco etc etc.

Have the EU fan boiz finally admitted what was obvious to anyone with a modicum of wit long ago, that the EU's vaccine strategy was a fiasco?

Or are they still holding out in the Berlin bunker long after the likes of Verhofstadt abandoned that cause?

Sam Russell · 21-02-2021 10:49AM

Bambi wrote: »

Have the EU fan boiz finally admitted what was obvious to anyone with a modicum of wit long ago, that the EU's vaccine strategy was a fiasco?

Or are they still holding out in the Berlin bunker long after the likes of Verhofstadt abandoned that cause?

You might consider the US FAA authorising the Boeing 737 Max aircraft and its subsequent worldwide grounding after two fatal crashes blamed on appalling design failures that were given the nod by the FAA based on false information from Boeing. National certifying authority approving home design based on faulty information is not a good thing.

The UK approval of the AZ vaccine was rushed. If the UK approval of the AZ vaccine had gone wrong, it would have been a disaster. Hopefully, that will prove to be a good decision with a good result, but it was risky. The people on the trials took a risk, and we should be grateful to them, but they knew they were taking that risk.

Harry Palmr · 21-02-2021 10:53AM

I hope when the UK is approaching 100% adult vaccination in the summer the government here have pre-arranged for AstraZeneca to be imported here after all an all-Ireland approach makes sense doesn't it?

21-02-2021 11:09AM

The UK did a serious botch job handling Covid. 120,000 dead as a result.

They seem to be doing well on the vaccination front.

However, they aren't a country I'd be holding up as a shining example when it comes to handling Covid.

Bubbaclaus · 21-02-2021 11:09AM

Harry Palmr wrote: »

I hope when the UK is approaching 100% adult vaccination in the summer the government here have pre-arranged for AstraZeneca to be imported here after all an all-Ireland approach makes sense doesn't it?

We won't be too far behind at that stage, better off giving them to third world countries that have been left behind.

Musefan · 21-02-2021 11:35AM

I’m delighted to have been vaccinated with AZ, but wow, 24 hours post vaccine, the side effects are rough.

Harry Palmr · 21-02-2021 11:37AM

re Bubbaclaus

Well you'd hope so but I'm not holding my breath.

Icantthinkof1 · 21-02-2021 11:50AM

Musefan wrote: »

I’m delighted to have been vaccinated with AZ, but wow, 24 hours post vaccine, the side effects are rough.

We were told at the vaccination centre to take paracetamol as soon as we got home
I know now why they said that- the side effects that I experienced were well gone though by 36hours
From what I am reading it seems people getting the rna vaccines develop side effects on the 2nd dose and those who get the AZ vaccine develop them on the 1st dose

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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