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Spin off from David gone dairying

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24

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    #32
    squinn2912
    Registered Users Posts: 4,820 ✭✭✭squinn2912


    tanko wrote: »
    Can a separate thread be set up for this shyte???

    No call for that it’s only the man’s opinion. I wanna hear more from David too though


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    #33
    richie123
    Registered Users Posts: 790 ✭✭✭richie123


    tanko wrote: »
    Can a separate thread be set up for this shyte???

    Good man tanko great contribution.


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    #34
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    It has been suggested that some posts are off topic in the dairy setup thread so moving them here.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #35
    White Clover
    Registered Users Posts: 4,594 ✭✭✭White Clover


    BASS REEVES "Any cattle left next year that will not finish within 6 weeks of being housed are going back out to grass the following spring"

    Bass, I struggle to get my head around statements like this.
    To my mind, drawing meal out to cattle in fields in September and October is lunacy.
    I cant see how cattle would thrive and lay down fat.
    The grass is basically water at that time of year bar an Indian summer. The cattle will in general be unsettled due to waiting around for meal and often bad weather.
    They will plough around troughs and it is highly dangerous.
    What is wrong at housing finishing cattle on October 1st on good silage and 3kg meal. After 80 days the cattle are 100kg heavier. Fair enough they will eat 2 bales each but the increased thrive will offset a lot of the cost of that, the place isn't ploughed around troughs and there's no chance of being knocked and trampled while over and back to the jeep for bags of meal 3 or 4 times each day. The grass that these cattle haven't trampled is available for younger stock.


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    #36
    Dunedin
    Registered Users Posts: 2,262 ✭✭✭Dunedin


    Water John wrote: »
    €19/20c/l might be closer to the mark. I'm not criticising Bass who did put figures for discussion. An income around €35K.

    As a matter of interest what costs are included in the 19/20c/l. Is it every single cost incurred on the farm from meal to diesel, insurance, depreciation, hedge cutting etc.

    Genuine question as apart from relief milking 30 cows for a couple of neighbors 25 years ago, my €€ diary knowledge is limited


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    #37
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,261 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Dunedin, mine is too now. It varies quite a bit depending on each farm.
    I can tell you the fella with 30 cows couldn't afford to pay you anything nowadays. Some lads I know are getting by with from 45 cows up, running tidy ops.


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    #38
    cute geoge
    Registered Users Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭cute geoge


    No way would 20 cent/litre cost cover any land rentel costs,machinery purchase ,building capital repayments or farm labour .20 cent might or might not cover every other costs


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    #39
    Mooooo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,611 ✭✭✭Mooooo


    26 cent was all costs excluding a wage for myself or the capital portion of repayments. Fcukall out the side door as Bass puts it as well


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    #40
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,374 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    White Clover wrote: »
    BASS REEVES "Any cattle left next year that will not finish within 6 weeks of being housed are going back out to grass the following spring"

    Bass, I struggle to get my head around statements like this.
    To my mind, drawing meal out to cattle in fields in September and October is lunacy.
    I cant see how cattle would thrive and lay down fat.
    The grass is basically water at that time of year bar an Indian summer. The cattle will in general be unsettled due to waiting around for meal and often bad weather.
    They will plough around troughs and it is highly dangerous.
    What is wrong at housing finishing cattle on October 1st on good silage and 3kg meal. After 80 days the cattle are 100kg heavier. Fair enough they will eat 2 bales each but the increased thrive will offset a lot of the cost of that, the place isn't ploughed around troughs and there's no chance of being knocked and trampled while over and back to the jeep for bags of meal 3 or 4 times each day. The grass that these cattle haven't trampled is available for younger stock.

    Ya there will be a certain amount that will finish. Problem is it is at best bullocks are converting at about 10-1/kg of DM some will be 13+-1. But at 10-1 with ration prices at 270/ton it costing 270 to put on a kg of LW. Even at 60%, conversion to DW it costing 450/kg of DW to produce. At a conversion rate of 13-1 and 55% DW conversion you are looking at over 6/kg of DW.

    It's a mugs game finishing cattle indoors at present beef prices versus ration prices. The killer is if you need to replace these cattle in the spring to turn again in mid late summer. I aim to get some of those cattle onto ration earlier and kill off grass. Even throwing cattle into the shed in late September to finish before mid/late November is ok. But beyond that forget about it. Processor's are not paying a viable price for feeding cattle beyond that.

    Definately there is no point in spending money buying those 500kg plus bullocks and heifers ......of any breed... And feeding them for 100+days is not viable. There is no margin in it. At present prices you need to be buying those nice Continental bullocks at 1.8-1.9/kg to leave a margin to winter finish them at present.

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #41
    Siamsa Sessions
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭Siamsa Sessions


    Apologies for the off-topic comment on this spin-off thread but I just watched that guy Wilson on Ear to the Ground on the RTE player.

    It's him who should be on the front of the IFJ "Dairy Magazine". He's a man that knows every one of his cows and is a farmer rather than merely the owner of a "dairy business".

    Trading as Sullivan’s Farm on YouTube



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    #42
    straight
    Registered Users Posts: 4,687 ✭✭✭straight


    Siamsa Sessions wrote: »
    Apologies for the off-topic comment on this spin-off thread but I just watched that guy Wilson on Ear to the Ground on the RTE player.

    It's him who should be on the front of the IFJ "Dairy Magazine". He's a man that knows every one of his cows and is a farmer rather than merely the owner of a "dairy business".

    He was doing fine until he said he hopes to get by on 100 cows in the future. Too much work in 100 cows for just getting by.


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    #43
    K.G.
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,122 Mod ✭✭✭✭K.G.


    Mooooo wrote: »
    26 cent was all costs excluding a wage for myself or the capital portion of repayments. Fcukall out the side door as Bass puts it as well

    And this year theres a few nasty jumps in feed,fert and diesel to name a few..some seem to think that dairy lads on here are pretending theres no money on dairying but.the harsh reality is margin is dropping all the time and will continue to do so.its the pig game volume instead of margin.100 cows is the 30 cows of 20 years ago


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    #44
    Jjameson
    Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson


    cute geoge wrote: »
    No way would 20 cent/litre cost cover any land rentel costs,machinery purchase ,building capital repayments or farm labour .20 cent might or might not cover every other costs

    During the drought of 18 while comparing notes with a dairy farming neighbour, I was feeding bullocks around 6 kg of meal to try get them out of the place. I was losining money. He was putting a little more into cows and getting around 3 times that in milk.
    Milk isn’t easy money or big by any other standard but compared to any other farming enterprise it is the only show in town.


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    #45
    straight
    Registered Users Posts: 4,687 ✭✭✭straight


    Jjameson wrote: »
    During the drought of 18 while comparing notes with a dairy farming neighbour, I was feeding bullocks around 6 kg of meal to try get them out of the place. I was losining money. He was putting a little more into cows and getting around 3 times that in milk.
    Milk isn’t easy money or big by any other standard but compared to any other farming enterprise it is the only show in town.

    It's very expensive to get set up at the correct level for compliance, ease and comfort. Once you get that out of the way and you don't mind the work you will do fine. Alot easier ways to earn a living though so you would want to be into it.


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    #46
    jaymla627
    Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭jaymla627


    Jjameson wrote: »
    During the drought of 18 while comparing notes with a dairy farming neighbour, I was feeding bullocks around 6 kg of meal to try get them out of the place. I was losining money. He was putting a little more into cows and getting around 3 times that in milk.
    Milk isn’t easy money or big by any other standard but compared to any other farming enterprise it is the only show in town.

    Alot of men with the place mortgaged to the hilt in the hope of earning a bit the average industrial wage, while working twice the hours isn't the most attractive proposition in the world to be fair


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    #47
    cute geoge
    Registered Users Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭cute geoge


    Ye think there is no other cost in dairying beside fert. and meal .Any dairy man can tell you margin is getting smaller every year .Replacement cost of cows is a big cost overlooked by people on the outside another big one is contractor cost .The amount of soiled water to be collected and spread is massive not to mind it seems if you have concrete roadways you might have to collect this soiled water from now on and the list does go .For example I was talking to neighbour with 100 cows well set up no borrowings with newish tractor and tank ,he gets a young lad to drive tractor at slurry .Anyway it was always E80cash/handy day,this year he demanded E100/day as well as breaking a water trough .The Dairy man gave it to the young lad anyway but said he was working longer hours himself and he would not clear 100 himself every day!!!


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    #48
    mr.stonewall
    Registered Users Posts: 1,719 ✭✭✭mr.stonewall


    cute geoge wrote: »
    Ye think there is no other cost in dairying beside fert. and meal .Any dairy man can tell you margin is getting smaller every year .Replacement cost of cows is a big cost overlooked by people on the outside another big one is contractor cost .The amount of soiled water to be collected and spread is massive not to mind it seems if you have concrete roadways you might have to collect this soiled water from now on and the list does go .For example I was talking to neighbour with 100 cows well set up no borrowings with newish tractor and tank ,he gets a young lad to drive tractor at slurry .Anyway it was always E80cash/handy day,this year he demanded E100/day as well as breaking a water trough .The Dairy man gave it to the young lad anyway but said he was working longer hours himself and he would not clear 100 himself every day!!!
    Can see a big rise coming with the contractor cost especially with silage having to be hauled larger distances back to yard. Could see see it coming on hourly charge for draws of over half a mile. The number of spfh harvester crews are dropping and the silage window is shorter


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    #49
    Jjameson
    Registered Users Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Jjameson


    jaymla627 wrote: »
    Alot of men with the place mortgaged to the hilt in the hope of earning a bit the average industrial wage, while working twice the hours isn't the most attractive proposition in the world to be fair

    I concur. It’s not for me anyway.


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    #50
    trg
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭trg


    Siamsa Sessions wrote: »
    Apologies for the off-topic comment on this spin-off thread but I just watched that guy Wilson on Ear to the Ground on the RTE player.

    It's him who should be on the front of the IFJ "Dairy Magazine". He's a man that knows every one of his cows and is a farmer rather than merely the owner of a "dairy business".
    That's mighty condescending on your part.

    Farming is a hobby for some, but for many it simply must be run as a business especially if you have bank commitments and you depend on your farm to put food on the table.


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    #51
    jaymla627
    Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭jaymla627


    mr.stonewall wrote: »
    Can see a big rise coming with the contractor cost especially with silage having to be hauled larger distances back to yard. Could see see it coming on hourly charge for draws of over half a mile. The number of spfh harvester crews are dropping and the silage window is shorter

    Bought alot of gear here the past few years to take everything in house bar silage with a wagon and rake hired in, keep getting told I'm stone mad, but when you see the inflation year on year with machinery it's crazy, alot of my gear has appreciate in value


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    #52
    Siamsa Sessions
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 3,721 Mod ✭✭✭✭Siamsa Sessions


    trg wrote: »
    That's mighty condescending on your part.

    Farming is a hobby for some, but for many it simply must be run as a business especially if you have bank commitments and you depend on your farm to put food on the table.

    Sorry if you saw it like that. It wasn’t meant as a slight on farmers, whatever we call ourselves. What irks me is the official advice that we should look at farming as just another business.

    Trading as Sullivan’s Farm on YouTube



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    #53
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,374 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    K.G. wrote: »
    And this year theres a few nasty jumps in feed,fert and diesel to name a few..some seem to think that dairy lads on here are pretending theres no money on dairying but.the harsh reality is margin is dropping all the time and will continue to do so.its the pig game volume instead of margin.100 cows is the 30 cows of 20 years ago

    The dearer ration gets the better. We can grow grass relatively cheaply. A 40-50 euro a ton rise in grains is adding 50+c/head every day to costs in feedlots accross the world. Similar with milk this is hitting indoor milking more than NZ and ourselves. They will suffer with fertlizer costs every bit as much as us if not more. I hope it lasts 3-4 years. Looking at the figures for the Pallaskenry herd they are out on grass since start of Feb, diet is 9 kgs grass, 2 kgs silage and 3 kgs ration. On them figures they are probably feeding around 500 kgs/ year to each cow.

    I think you are wrong about equating a lad with 30 cows 20 years to a hundred nowaday. I say the lad with 50-60 20 years ago was similar. Biggest problem is capital spend at present a lot of lads have expanded maybe a tad too fast. Too many lads have not done the figures on rented ground especially if it's far from the MP and they have not allow for labour costs when they are exceed 100 cows.

    I still stand by my figures for a lad milking 80 cows on 100 acres owned in a block if he was operating similar to Wilson. The key is cost control. Most lads will not do a cost benefit analysis on any projects. They just plough ahead and specially if it's saving tax I'm the short term

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #54
    jaymla627
    Registered Users Posts: 6,582 ✭✭✭jaymla627


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    The dearer ration gets the better. We can grow grass relatively cheaply. A 40-50 euro a ton rise in grains is adding 50+c/ day to costs in feedlots accross the works. Similar with milk this is hitting indoor milking more than NZ and ourselves. They will suffer with fertlizer costs every bit as much as us. I hope it lasts 3-4 years. Looking at the figures for the Pallaskenry herd they are out on grass since start of Feb, diet is 9 kgs grass, 2 kgs silage and 3 kgs ration. On them figures they are probably feeding around 500 kgs/ year to each cow.

    I think you are wrong about equating a lad with 30 cows 20 years to a hundred nowaday. I say the lad with 50-60 20 years ago was similar. Biggest problem is capital spend at present a lot of lads have expanded maybe a tad too fast. Too many lads have not done the figures on rented ground especially if it's far from the MP and they have not allow for labour costs when they are exceed 100 cows.

    I still stand by my figures for a lad milking 80 cows on 100 acres. If he was operating similar to Wilson. The key is cost control. Most lads will not do a cost benefit analysis on any projects. They just plough ahead and specially if it's saving tax I'm the short term

    I'd be taking anything the monks put out as been extremely economically with the truth, they probably easily have north of a million gone into the place the past two years also


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    #55
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,374 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    Siamsa Sessions wrote: »
    Sorry if you saw it like that. It wasn’t meant as a slight on farmers, whatever we call ourselves. What irks me is the official advice that we should look at farming as just another business.

    I would not apologise at all. It was a valid opinion to an extent. Too often the front page of agri journals and Teagasc are too focused on lads investing large sums to be efficient. Efficiency is not necessarily the answer for some. Yes for some it is but for some it is not.

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #56
    trg
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭trg


    Siamsa Sessions wrote: »
    Sorry if you saw it like that. It wasn’t meant as a slight on farmers, whatever we call ourselves. What irks me is the official advice that we should look at farming as just another business.

    But if you've loans to pay and food to put on the table from the farm then you absolutely must look upon it as a business. It would be reckless not to.


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    #57
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,374 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    jaymla627 wrote: »
    I'd be taking anything the monks put out as been extremely economically with the truth, they probably easily have north of a million gone into the place the past two years also

    Ya I agree and from what I hear some of the investment there is crazy. But the figures with the cows are impressive I cannot make head or tail of how much the cows are milking. Are they in the 5-6k litres bracket at the new F&P solids figures

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #58
    Bass Reeves
    Registered Users Posts: 18,374 ✭✭✭✭Bass Reeves


    trg wrote: »
    But if you've loans to pay and food to put on the table from the farm then you absolutely must look upon it as a business. It would be reckless not to.

    That is a two way street. Too many farms are too focused on inform investment. Most refuse to diversify. Most will not invest in pensions. Expansion has become overreaching. There is no CBA by most outfit's. No looking at worst case senario's.

    Slava Ukrainii



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    #59
    trg
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭trg


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    I would not apologise at all. It was a valid opinion to an extent. Too often the front page of agri journals and Teagasc are too focused on lads investing large sums to be efficient. Efficiency is not necessarily the answer for some. Yes for some it is but for some it is not.

    Their opinion was broadbrush across all farmers. That's the issue I have and yes I found it condescending as the tone implied that farmers (whatever that definition is) > people who run it as a business.

    If you wish to farm as a hobby, as I do, then whether I'm efficient or not or am clinical with my decisions isn't make or break. I admire people who run it as a business and drive efficency.


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    #60
    cute geoge
    Registered Users Posts: 2,941 ✭✭✭cute geoge


    Sure that place would be some of the finest land In Ireland ,I can remember back there spreading slurry with 2 wd drive tractor in the debts of winter back in the day .It is easy have impressive figures there but the reality in places where cows will be indoors for another 5 or 6 weeks the reality is completely different


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    #61
    trg
    Registered Users Posts: 377 ✭✭trg


    Bass Reeves wrote: »
    That is a two way street. Too many farms are too focused on inform investment. Most refuse to diversify. Most will not invest in pensions. Expansion has become overreaching. There is no CBA by most outfit's. No looking at worst case senario's.

    I'm a big admirer of your posts in farming techniques but the above? No.

    "Too many farms are too focused on inform investment"

    "Most refuse to diversify"

    "Most will not invest in pensions"

    "There is no CBA by most outfit's"

    "No looking at worst case senario's"

    All opinion here with big statements but no evidence or facts and I can counter each one of them with statements to the contrary.


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