The way forward for LC2021

pandoraj09 wrote: »

I teach with someone just like you Teach30, a person who wings it every day of the week. Your attitude is appalling and even more so in a forum that non-teachers have access to. You have a duty as a professional to be bothered about all of your students. Please God no non-teacher reading here thinks your attitude is common to us all.

I can safely say I always do my best for the students, keeping spreadsheets of records and comparing result isn’t something anyone in my staffroom speaks of. I didn’t realise it was a requirement of teaching nowadays?

To be honest how many students get H1s in any class of mine has never been my top priority. There is more to teaching than the end result.

Also What I mean by not bothered is they’ll be easier to figure those CG out so I’m not as worried.

My original question has been answered I can only follow the guidelines when they are issued.

Teach30 wrote: »

I can safely say I always do my best for the students, keeping spreadsheets of records and comparing result isn’t something anyone in my staffroom speaks of. I didn’t realise it was a requirement of teaching nowadays?

To be honest how many students get H1s in any class of mine has never been my top priority. There is more to teaching than the end result.

Also What I mean by not bothered is they’ll be easier to figure those CG out so I’m not as worried.

My original question has been answered I can only follow the guidelines when they are issued.

It’s funny, everyone is different. I found the H3-H6’s far far harder last year. H1 and H2 are the hard workers. Their grades tend to be more consistent and the mean or a version of the mean as an average of theirs tends to be appropriate. But the H3 down often have grades from fails to 80s depending on the content. Choosing one specific percentage for them was so hard

Teach30 wrote: »

I can safely say I always do my best for the students, keeping spreadsheets of records and comparing result isn’t something anyone in my staffroom speaks of. I didn’t realise it was a requirement of teaching nowadays?

To be honest how many students get H1s in any class of mine has never been my top priority. There is more to teaching than the end result.

Also What I mean by not bothered is they’ll be easier to figure those CG out so I’m not as worried.

My original question has been answered I can only follow the guidelines when they are issued.

A part of doing your best for your students is understanding the pitfalls of the exams and steering them clear of that. Every school I've taught in analyses their results every year, department by department, this is standard practice as far as I'm concerned. I absolutely agree that their is more to teaching than the exam but I've seen it too often in DEIS schools where everyone is so concerned about all the other stuff they forget to ensure the kids have a quality education and good results they can carry with them for the rest of their lives. Your students are competing against students being taught by teachers that keep excels, that monitor results and adjust their teaching, that go over every marking scheme and have corrected. Personally my dedication to my job helps me sleep at night, if learning a new subject cost me some time that's less of a cost than class of students not being able to sit the exam because we cannot find a teacher.

Teach30 wrote: »

I can safely say I always do my best for the students, keeping spreadsheets of records and comparing result isn’t something anyone in my staffroom speaks of. I didn’t realise it was a requirement of teaching nowadays?

To be honest how many students get H1s in any class of mine has never been my top priority. There is more to teaching than the end result.

Also What I mean by not bothered is they’ll be easier to figure those CG out so I’m not as worried.

My original question has been answered I can only follow the guidelines when they are issued.

But there's nothing stopping you keeping a notebook of the marks for class tests, it doesn't have to be a fancy spreadsheet. It's easy to see if Mary Murphy is a H2 or a H4 when you flick through the sets of results you have from class tests. Some of mine were remarkably consistent last year where all their marks ranged over maybe 15%. When someone is getting results entirely within 67-82% over two years it's entirely justifiable to say, yes that student is probably a H3.

am_zarathustra wrote: »

A part of doing your best for your students is understanding the pitfalls of the exams and steering them clear of that. Every school I've taught in analyses their results every year, department by department, this is standard practice as far as I'm concerned. I absolutely agree that their is more to teaching than the exam but I've seen it too often in DEIS schools where everyone is so concerned about all the other stuff they forget to ensure the kids have a quality education and good results they can carry with them for the rest of their lives. Your students are competing against students being taught by teachers that keep excels, that monitor results and adjust their teaching, that go over every marking scheme and have corrected. Personally my dedication to my job helps me sleep at night, if learning a new subject cost me some time that's less of a cost than class of students not being able to sit the exam because we cannot find a teacher.

I'd agree. As part of exam revision, I teach mine how to read marking schemes so they can see what earns marks and what doesn't so they're not coming back asking in august to go through exam papers (which I will do with them) and saying 'but I wrote 1.5 pages for the answer' and my reply is 'but none of it answered the question you were asked'.

Or if there is a question on an experiment and they have to write out a method, the method normally involves a control of some sort and a time factor and a diagram of the equipment for the experiment. It's easy to point out these consistent points in a marking scheme and show them that these are bankable points they can pick up almost automatically. Physics often involves drawing graphs, so they understand the importance of labelling axes, plotting points correctly, drawing the line of best fit and getting the slope.

Or also in physics, every single mathematical questions awards marks for writing down the formula, inserting the numbers into the formula, the correct answer, and that by just writing down the formula they are picking up 3/9 marks. So they learn to lay out their answers in a particular way, and not lose silly marks.



I also am very much aware that this kind of information is drummed into students in grind schools so that's what my crew are competing against, not just against each other.

I wouldn't automatically suggest to my students to sit the exam in that subject. I think there's a complex debate - even if there's a risk of downgrading, is sitting the exam risk-free? Could they have a not great day and the exam not go so well? Then there's the time and effort spent studying a subject which would obviously detract from the time available for others.

Looking at it objectively I think any student who kills themselves doing 6/7 subjects to maybe only do as well or not as good as under calculated grades is foolhardy. To my mind a strategy which focuses only on exams where you can maximise grades is worth consideration.

Chances are in some subjects if you get a grade from a teacher (even if you don't know what that is) it might be as good as it gets in some subjects.

Teach30 wrote: »

Its not standard practice for me, also not something that came up when I was teacher training or at any Inservices!

Maybe should be though?

I’d believe myself to be very dedicated to my role but I won’t lose sleep over not keeping a spreadsheet or learning off marking scheme when they don’t make any sense when your not a corrector.

I came looking for advice but so far I all you’ve insinuated is that I’m not as dedicated as you are. Lovely attitude to have. Always hated the pushy teachers when I was in school.

Anyways This might be the best learning experience ever for my and my future students.

It shouldn't need to be said to a teacher at inservice to keep a record of student marks. Most teachers would have kept them in a roll book in the past and had them available for parent teacher meetings.

You also don't have to learn off marking schemes. They are not difficult to understand. All of my students are able to read a marking scheme without any major hassle.

It's also not about dedication, it's about doing the basics of the job. Record keeping and understanding how a student can pick up marks in an exam are basic enough requirements.

You're making snide remarks now saying teachers on here are pushy when today alone you've stated the following about your teaching:

You don't keep much in the way of records,
You don't really know where your results are for class tests
You were considering giving the H1 student in your class a lower grade 'as they don't really need it for points'
You were considering giving poorer students higher grades because 'they need them for high points courses'
You are more concerned with being liked that giving grades based on ability
The H3-H6 students you aren't really bothered about
You can't be bothered to learn how to read a marking scheme - when it isn't hard at all.
You reckon the only people that can read a marking scheme are those that correct exams - but that's not the case at all


But everyone on here is pushy. :rolleyes:

I really hope that no one on social media in general picks up on your posts because they are dreadful.

Teach30 wrote: »

I have kept results of small class tests in my diary but it’s the idea of comparing those to their LC results, I’ve never looked too much into that.

I might look at their results out of curiosity some years but I’d never undertake target setting or detailed analysis of them, as some here said they do.

I get a new group and I move on.
It’s worked fine for last 10 years but apparently not good enough for some commenting here.

I can’t imagine myself being that intense about results tbh.

It doesn't require intense analysis. Anyone assessing their students regularly has a fair idea of how they are going to get on in the LC. Some will get a grade higher and some will get a grade lower than expected. But most teachers will have a fair idea how the students will rank from highest to the lowest with the odd one outperforming expectations or underperforming on the day. So getting a list of grades in August when the results are released only takes a few minutes to see if they are generally in line with what I expected ... or if it throws up a few questions.

Even from that point of view it could be that several students performing worse than expected could point to an issue with the quality of marking (have had that issue) and going to view scripts can confirm that. Or if a student underperforms and I hear that they generally underperformed across the board, that tells us more about that the student wasn't as prepared as appeared. Or the student I had a few years back that never got below 85% but on results day got a C1 (and 6 A1/A2 grades). I knew that student wasn't a C let alone a B and we were straight onto the SEC and it turned out that a 360 had been entered as a 260 for their marks, so A1 it was.

The geography teachers in my school noticed that overall their students were underperforming and we had three LC classes in geography at that stage so it was noticeable. I told them to go and view scripts with the students. I sat down with two of them and it became apparent that the way they were getting the students to complete one section of the project was incorrect and scoring zero. The marks lost amounted to 5-6% of the total. This was when there were B1/B2 style grades. So all students were losing at least one grade automatically. There were a couple of other niggly things. The geog teachers had a department meeting. Ironed out this issue so everyone was teaching the same thing for the project and students got their marks the following year. It's massively important.

Leftwaffe wrote: »

As an aside, anyone know what they’re going to do with their junior cert classes between now and May? I finished the course last Friday and was planning on Revision between now and the end of year. Haven’t a clue what to do now.

I'd guess that principals will want certain assessments to be able to give them a grade at the end of the year. Maybe complete CBAs, hard to know really.

Rosita wrote: »

I wouldn't automatically suggest to my students to sit the exam in that subject. I think there's a complex debate - even if there's a risk of downgrading, is sitting the exam risk-free? Could they have a not great day and the exam not go so well? Then there's the time and effort spent studying a subject which would obviously detract from the time available for others.

Looking at it objectively I think any student who kills themselves doing 6/7 subjects to maybe only do as well or not as good as under calculated grades is foolhardy. To my mind a strategy which focuses only on exams where you can maximise grades is worth consideration.

Chances are in some subjects if you get a grade from a teacher (even if you don't know what that is) it might be as good as it gets in some subjects.

Well I'd guess that even if the exam doesn't go as well as expected if the PG is higher then they have that safety net. If the PG is lower then they haven't lost anything.

I would imagine that students in the 6 HLs bracket will be the most likely to sacrifice their OL subject to a predicted grade if they know it's a safe predicted grade like an O3 or O4 and aren't counting it for points, barring a major disaster in another subject.

A lot of schools offer LCVP, given the few Distinctions in the subject and the many Merit/Pass grades, I could see that one being sacrified by many.

http://twitter.com/Education_Ire/status/1362468261074530310

Am I wrong in saying that for predicted grades to go ahead mocks should at least take place!

Teach30 wrote: »

I clearly said I do keep test results, but not work handed up.

I started out with a genuine question do we take their college course into account? I didn’t do CG last year so wasn’t sure.

I can read a marking scheme but when students don’t get the marks despite having wrote what’s on the scheme how do you explain that to a class?

How do you explain to them where they lost marks? I’ve asked subject assoc but unless you are a corrector they won’t say.

You haven’t offered me much in line of advice only picking and choosing what I said to make out I’m crap at what I’m trying to do.

So yea some here are being very pushy about all the extra stuff they do. Good for ye but not everyone has the time for that.

We are marking on their ability not what they have applied for in college.

You haven't said what the subject is or given an example of the type of answer that didn't get marks when it should have. If you post one, then someone on here can probably point out what the problem is. No one can help you otherwise.

I think you've mentioned that your subject doesn't have a project/component element to it which rules out a heap of subjects and also that you're the only one who teaches it in your school and you've been doing it for 10 years so it's not a new subject. So my guess is that it's most likely a business subject, maybe accounting or economics. Makes no odds if it's not. But if you want to take any value from this thread that's probably the best way to do it.

And none of this is extra stuff, this is normal record keeping. It's part of the job.

shesty wrote: »

How would you know what their college choice is?

I asked them what they want to do and I’d know them and their parents outside of school too. Small parish. Small class group and I’d be friendly with them all.

Wish I wasn’t now!

rainbowtrout wrote: »

It doesn't require intense analysis. Anyone assessing their students regularly has a fair idea of how they are going to get on in the LC. Some will get a grade higher and some will get a grade lower than expected. But most teachers will have a fair idea how the students will rank from highest to the lowest with the odd one outperforming expectations or underperforming on the day. So getting a list of grades in August when the results are released only takes a few minutes to see if they are generally in line with what I expected ... or if it throws up a few questions.

Even from that point of view it could be that several students performing worse than expected could point to an issue with the quality of marking (have had that issue) and going to view scripts can confirm that. Or if a student underperforms and I hear that they generally underperformed across the board, that tells us more about that the student wasn't as prepared as appeared. Or the student I had a few years back that never got below 85% but on results day got a C1 (and 6 A1/A2 grades). I knew that student wasn't a C let alone a B and we were straight onto the SEC and it turned out that a 360 had been entered as a 260 for their marks, so A1 it was.

The geography teachers in my school noticed that overall their students were underperforming and we had three LC classes in geography at that stage so it was noticeable. I told them to go and view scripts with the students. I sat down with two of them and it became apparent that the way they were getting the students to complete one section of the project was incorrect and scoring zero. The marks lost amounted to 5-6% of the total. This was when there were B1/B2 style grades. So all students were losing at least one grade automatically. There were a couple of other niggly things. The geog teachers had a department meeting. Ironed out this issue so everyone was teaching the same thing for the project and students got their marks the following year. It's massively important.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. Whether we agree or not the LC is the terminal exam normally for secondary education. Marking schemes are not rocket science, I give them out after most tests so the kids can see where they lost marks. It's basic assessment for learning and a fundamental to improving exam performance. Familiarity with a schemes prevents surprise grades or at least minimises them.

I would also echo the above, mistakes happen, knowledge of the scheme and subject lends to understanding when these are an issue with the teaching or instruction or whether they are an issue with the examiner.

Back to the LC though, anyone got an instinct for how the SEC will be involved, very quiet on that front. I'd love to know how they feel about weighting different factors! You could see there being a lot of expertise across so many subjects there, would be of real value.

stainlesssteel wrote: »

Am I crazy or does she say "the Leaving Cert class of two thousand and twenty twenty one"? Not having a go at her, just think it's odd that no one involved in the dept's media channels proofed it before upload

The stuff she's reading obviously says 2020/21 as in the academic year so that's where she gets it. But it's stupid, clunky and awkward.