The way forward for LC2021

Wombatman · 18-02-2021 01:44PM

Stewie Griffin wrote: »

Part of me suspects that there may be no exams this year too. Can the recruitment process happen in time? I suspect they are banking on similar numbers to the November cohort, which means that the same number of superintendents will only be needed.

I suspect there will be a big change here once the PGs are compiled and validated at school level. At that point the department have everything they need to renege on the exam commitment.

Full scale exams, under Covid conditions, in June, will little prep already done is a bridge to far.

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 01:44PM

Teach30 wrote: »

No never set targets etc. We aren’t asked to.

I once accompanied a student to check over her paper and I couldn’t tell her where or why she lost marks so I never did it again. The marking scheme I was provided with I couldn’t follow/didn’t reflect where marked were lost.

It really put me off doing that so I just say I’m not available now if asked to look at it.

:eek:

This is something you need to learn, rather than just say you're not available.

Marking schemes don't reflect where marks are lost, they reflect what marks are awarded for.

It feeds into your teaching because if you teach your students to answer a question in a particular way and that is not what is required by the exam, then they won't get the marks year after year.

Leftwaffe · 18-02-2021 01:46PM

I still don’t understand the difference between last years calculated grades and this years SEC accredited grades? Can anyone explain the role the SEC is plying in al this?

Also, will there be a calculated grades aide position for someone in the school again this year?

Asked this last night and got no response.

Teach30 · 18-02-2021 01:52PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

:eek:

Marking schemes don't reflect where marks are lost, they reflect what marks are awarded for.

It feeds into your teaching because if you teach your students to answer a question in a particular way and that is not what is required by the exam, then they won't get the marks year after year.

Yes but unless you mark LC yourself it’s impossible to tell the student why marks were lost.

I’m in my subject assoc and unless you are in the elitist group who corrects they won’t tell you why only 12/15 was given etc. We have asked!

If I have the marking scheme in front of me it should be clear why marks were not awarded but it’s not always as simple as that.

Sorry if I sound as if I am not as professional as you but not everyone teaches the same way!

jayo76 · 18-02-2021 01:59PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

That occurred to me last night too. I suspect they won't use the exam grade, GDPR and all that, but if the grades aren't in line with what the school usually gets in that subject, they may be downgraded anyway.

I still have huge issues with the if they are not in line with what the school usually gets as a means of moderating results. I made this point a few times last year as I had 2 students I was as close as possibly could be 100% sure would achieve H1 if exam was sat. I gave both H1 in History in calculated grades and both kept that grade. I have huge doubts they would have if school profiling was applied as there had been no H1 in school in the previous three years.

I have 20 years experience teaching my subject, many students have achieved H1 or A1 in the old system. I pour over comparisons of my classes results in comparison with national averages every year and I believe I understand as well as anybody what a H1 student is. The three years that my classes had no H1 there were loads of H2 and it would have been a big pleasant surprise to me if these students had got H1 based on my knowledge teaching them.

This year I have 3 students that hand on heart I believe are H1 students and that I have the subject experience and knowledge to back that up. However if previous school results and profiling are used they are unlikely to get them. I don't believe that is fair and with my belief in their ability and my judgement I will 100% be advising them to sit the exam to mitigate that risk. Hopefuly the exams will go ahead for that reason.

LW2018 · 18-02-2021 02:13PM

Has there been any clarification on the school year ending a week early? Or is that solely for the Junior Cycle students? I am half thinking that the school year ending a week early is to allow for the accreditation process to take place, with a Calculated Grade Aide style position created again and then an Exam Aide role for the exams. Will be a lot of planning required so maybe the time allowed here at the end of the year is to 'assist' in the submission of said material and planning for the SEC exams

Alex86Eire · 18-02-2021 02:16PM

Teach30 wrote: »

Yes but unless you mark LC yourself it’s impossible to tell the student why marks were lost.

If after 10 years of teaching you're unsure how to follow marking schemes I'd say try correcting during the summer once. It can be tough work but would give a great insight into how marks are awarded. Your students would benefit hugely from it.

I would have had to study marking schemes very closely in my first few years and compared them over the years. Its important to be able to tell students what exactly is expected of them in a question.

noplacehere · 18-02-2021 02:21PM

Teach30 wrote: »

Yes but unless you mark LC yourself it’s impossible to tell the student why marks were lost.

I’m in my subject assoc and unless you are in the elitist group who corrects they won’t tell you why only 12/15 was given etc. We have asked!

If I have the marking scheme in front of me it should be clear why marks were not awarded but it’s not always as simple as that.

Sorry if I sound as if I am not as professional as you but not everyone teaches the same way!

What subject is it? This can be an issue in the melody writing in music for example but not in most of the rest of the paper. Perhaps teachers can advise? It should be reasonably obvious where marks were lost across the paper

Treppen · 18-02-2021 02:23PM

Alex86Eire wrote: »

If after 10 years of teaching you're unsure how to follow marking schemes I'd say try correcting during the summer once. It can be tough work but would give a great insight into how marks are awarded. Your students would benefit hugely from it.

I would have had to study marking schemes very closely in my first few years and compared them over the years. Its important to be able to tell students what exactly is expected of them in a question.

This is true, I have a sneaking feeling teach30 is in one of those minority subjects where the heads of subject association and SEC markers are practically the same people and they ain't revealing anything. Also they might be very cagy about who the allow to mark. So I wouldn't berate teach30 too much if they are purposefully being left in the dark.

We had that a little bit in ours but when the unofficial and official Facebook pages started up it rattled a few cages publicly and info on how to get the H1s are a bit more forthcoming.

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 02:28PM

jayo76 wrote: »

I still have huge issues with the if they are not in line with what the school usually gets as a means of moderating results. I made this point a few times last year as I had 2 students I was as close as possibly could be 100% sure would achieve H1 if exam was sat. I gave both H1 in History in calculated grades and both kept that grade. I have huge doubts they would have if school profiling was applied as there had been no H1 in school in the previous three years.

I have 20 years experience teaching my subject, many students have achieved H1 or A1 in the old system. I pour over comparisons of my classes results in comparison with national averages every year and I believe I understand as well as anybody what a H1 student is. The three years that my classes had no H1 there were loads of H2 and it would have been a big pleasant surprise to me if these students had got H1 based on my knowledge teaching them.

This year I have 3 students that hand on heart I believe are H1 students and that I have the subject experience and knowledge to back that up. However if previous school results and profiling are used they are unlikely to get them. I don't believe that is fair and with my belief in their ability and my judgement I will 100% be advising them to sit the exam to mitigate that risk. Hopefuly the exams will go ahead for that reason.

I agree with you on that point. But I would look at the schools results more as a general trend rather than a specific target which the predicted grades must align with. In the example given a few posts back if a student is given a H1 by the teacher and scores H6 on the exam, the result is well out of kilter. It’s likely the other results the teacher awarded are way off too.

For one of my subjects this year I have the strongest class I’ve had for 7-8 years but realistically I think only one of them will pull off a H1 on the day and has been consistently performing at that level for the last 18 months. There’s 3-4 others who are consistent H2s and won’t pull their 85-86 average above 90. I’d imagine a lot of teachers gave those 86 averages the benefit of the doubt last year.

Teach30 · 18-02-2021 02:28PM

Alex86Eire wrote: »

If after 10 years of teaching you're unsure how to follow marking schemes I'd say try correcting during the summer once. It can be tough work but would give a great insight into how marks are awarded. Your students would benefit hugely from it.

I would have had to study marking schemes very closely in my first few years and compared them over the years. Its important to be able to tell students what exactly is expected of them in a question.

I know it would be invaluable but I haven’t the enthusiasm I once had as a younger teacher to do this now.

I couldn’t do it I’d actually have a breakdown with the workload and pressure - I’ve friends teaching different subject to mine and I’ve seen the bags of corrections and the long hours.

I will certainly take on board the comments here about keeping a better record system and using it to help my teaching.

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 02:30PM

LW2018 wrote: »

Has there been any clarification on the school year ending a week early? Or is that solely for the Junior Cycle students? I am half thinking that the school year ending a week early is to allow for the accreditation process to take place, with a Calculated Grade Aide style position created again and then an Exam Aide role for the exams. Will be a lot of planning required so maybe the time allowed here at the end of the year is to 'assist' in the submission of said material and planning for the SEC exams

Ya I presumed it was for that reason too. DES really don’t like giving us extra days for no reason

Rosita · 18-02-2021 02:32PM

Leftwaffe wrote: »

I still don’t understand the difference between last years calculated grades and this years SEC accredited grades? Can anyone explain the role the SEC is plying in al this?

I should stress that this is an opinion rather than an informed explanation.
I'd say in practice for most teachers the difference will be irrelevant. Last year the SEC was conspicuously left out of the process presumably to put clear water between LC 2021 and all others as there was no written exam. But this year when there's a plan for a written exam the SEC is relevant again. Presumably they cannot give a by definition SEC accredited LC grade (as it is every year without being expressly called that) for a written exam and not have the predicted grades accorded the same status.

It's, I would say, a theoretical difference in the main but there are practical elements as well, for example, the SEC is involved in assessing Orals and for all I know maybe other coursework elements of the exams. They presumably have responsibility for the famous algorithm this year as well. There is of course the small detail that they will set and organise the supervision and correction of the written exams. Like I said I'd say the majority of people will be unaware of the difference.

Moody_mona · 18-02-2021 03:00PM

I mentioned it a few pages back, ACCS confirming they schools will finish a week early. This is for all students and to allow time for the submission of predicted grades.

noplacehere · 18-02-2021 03:01PM

Moody_mona wrote: »

I mentioned it a few pages back, ACCS confirming they schools will finish a week early. This is for all students and to allow time for the submission of predicted grades.

We will be torn apart for that

Moody_mona · 18-02-2021 03:04PM

noplacehere wrote: »

We will be torn apart for that

Absolutely...!

Stewie Griffin · 18-02-2021 03:06PM

I presume it's not an ACCS solo run though. I presume the JMB are involved too?

km79 · 18-02-2021 03:09PM

Moody_mona wrote: »

I mentioned it a few pages back, ACCS confirming they schools will finish a week early. This is for all students and to allow time for the submission of predicted grades.

Can you link that . I can’t find it anywhere
Been looking for ages

LW2018 · 18-02-2021 03:10PM

km79 wrote: »

Can you link that . I can’t find it anywhere
Been looking for ages

https://www.accs.ie/accs-news/accsinfo-bulletin-0921

Wombatman · 18-02-2021 03:39PM

LW2018 wrote: »

https://www.accs.ie/accs-news/accsinfo-bulletin-0921

One key missing element is deadline for students to opt for PGs or exams. Will there be a change of mind window I wonder? I mean if a student is an exam no show, they will get a PG anyway, so students in theory should elect to do exams in everything, even if at a later date they change their minds.

French Toast · 18-02-2021 04:15PM

Moody_mona wrote: »

I mentioned it a few pages back, ACCS confirming they schools will finish a week early. This is for all students and to allow time for the submission of predicted grades.

Nice one. Think we were originally timetabled to keep going until June 4th this year.

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 04:20PM

Wombatman wrote: »

One key missing element is deadline for students to opt for PGs or exams. Will there be a change of mind window I wonder? I mean if a student is an exam no show, they will get a PG anyway, so students in theory should elect to do exams in everything, even if at a later date they change their minds.

I would guess that PG is the default and a student would have to opt out of it like last year. And exams would be an opt in. Can’t see there being a change of mind once orals and practicals get under way.

amacca · 18-02-2021 04:30PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I would guess that PG is the default and a student would have to opt out of it like last year. And exams would be an opt in. Can’t see there being a change of mind once orals and practicals get under way.

Think dept have stated both processes opt in strangely enough

Last year you had to opt into predicted grades too...there were still hundreds of students thst hadn't at the deadline

Legal reasons? Maybe you absolve dept of liability when you opt in?

amacca · 18-02-2021 04:30PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I would guess that PG is the default and a student would have to opt out of it like last year. And exams would be an opt in. Can’t see there being a change of mind once orals and practicals get under way.

Think dept have stated both processes opt in strangely enough

Last year you had to opt into predicted grades too...there were still hundreds of students thst hadn't at the deadline

Legal reasons? Maybe you absolve dept of liability when you opt in?

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 04:56PM

amacca wrote: »

Think dept have stated both processes opt in strangely enough

Last year you had to opt into predicted grades too...there were still hundreds of students thst hadn't at the deadline

Legal reasons? Maybe you absolve dept of liability when you opt in?

I suppose if you opt in you are agreeing to the terms and conditions rather than it being the default and having to opt out

Wombatman · 18-02-2021 05:02PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I would guess that PG is the default and a student would have to opt out of it like last year. And exams would be an opt in. Can’t see there being a change of mind once orals and practicals get under way.

Think about it. Everyone is getting a PG. Those who do the exam and those who don't.

So what is to stop a student opting in for all exams and just not doing them when it comes to the crunch?

I would advise ever student to opt in to all exams, even if they are probably not going to do them, which will make planning a nightmare.

Obviously if you don't opt in to do the exam you won't get the option later.

rainbowtrout · 18-02-2021 05:20PM

Wombatman wrote: »

Think about it. Everyone is getting a PG. Those who do the exam and those who don't.

So what is to stop a student opting in for all exams and just not doing them when it comes to the crunch?

I would advise ever student to opt in to all exams, even if they are probably not going to do them, which will make planning a nightmare.

Obviously if you don't opt in to do the exam you won't get the option later.

Nothing is stopping them but some just won’t. That is born out by the fact that most were happy to move on last year and accept the predicted grades rather than sit the November exams. The fact that 80% of predicted grades were unchanged last year is another factor. Going on that there is a very good chance of getting what they want. Many students applying for college do apply for large intake courses like Arts, Business, General Science. So unless there was a major disaster in predicted grading they are most likely going to get what they need.

I’ll be advising mine to sit the exams but I know some won’t and I’m not going to spend the next few weeks arguing with them over it.

Treppen · 18-02-2021 05:38PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Nothing is stopping them but some just won’t. That is born out by the fact that most were happy to move on last year and accept the predicted grades rather than sit the November exams. The fact that 80% of predicted grades were unchanged last year is another factor. Going on that there is a very good chance of getting what they want. Many students applying for college do apply for large intake courses like Arts, Business, General Science. So unless there was a major disaster in predicted grading they are most likely going to get what they need.

I’ll be advising mine to sit the exams but I know some won’t and I’m not going to spend the next few weeks arguing with them over it.

Why would you advise them to sit?

Hopontop · 18-02-2021 05:57PM

I think I’ll be advising my to sit the exam, for the following reasons:
1) Nothing to lose, if they do worse than there PG it won’t matter
2) We have no idea how the algorithm will work and there’s the chance they’ll be downgraded
3) I have very little data to go on and my estimate of their ability might not match their own opinion, as far as I know there’s no appeal for PG (not sure if or how I’d make this point to them)
4) They’ll be doing exams in college so good practice (not a major reason I know)
5) Lastly (and maybe a bit idealistic but the reason I’d feel strongest about) it’ll put it in their hands.
(All this is based on it being safe to sit the exams in June, and based on each student’s own circumstances)

I’d like to know others opinions, and if I’m missing some reason why not sitting would be a good/better option.

pandoraj09 · 18-02-2021 05:59PM

Teach30 wrote: »

Gosh I’d never do all that for a new subject Id just wing it!

I have done my best to understand the assessments but I’m still never sure if I apply marking schemes correctly. Asking other teachers isn’t an option, I’m the only one teaching my subject to LCs. I’m teaching it with 10years though and keeping them happy, LCs have never complained so I must be doing something right!

I thought you could only give so many H1s and H2s I’m not bothered about the rest they are easier to grade. If someone needs a H1 for points and they are between that and a H2 I’d totally give them the H1.

Would they get in if they sat the exam? maybe but I have never marked LC so I couldn’t be definite that the answers they provide are H1 or H2.

I teach with someone just like you Teach30, a person who wings it every day of the week. Your attitude is appalling and even more so in a forum that non-teachers have access to. You have a duty as a professional to be bothered about all of your students. Please God no non-teacher reading here thinks your attitude is common to us all.

The way forward for LC2021

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