The way forward for LC2021

wirelessdude01 · 17-02-2021 09:41AM

noplacehere wrote: »

There absolutely needs to be one union. No question on that

However I am delighted to see the TUI bring up the JC. They have been completely ignored. Parents are fuming. No harm for one of the unions to get brownie points by being ahead of the media coverage for once. The dogs on the street know the JC is going to be cancelled. We knew it the day the schools closed again. Let it be done in a coherent fashion with time for schools to plan for what form it will take for students before they are back in front of them

Most of the lads on the team I manage are meant to be doing thr JC this year. Haven't heard any of the parents giving out about the current situation. Anyone with a brain knows that it isn't happening. I believe the decision to not hold it was made over the Christmas Holidays before we were told to take those initial 3 extra days.

Treppen · 17-02-2021 09:42AM

History Queen wrote: »

God knows?! Duration of exams a factor maybe? I really don't know. I've given up trying to find logic in the approach to schools.

I think a lot of ye are aware I'm in the TUI but that I've no bother criticise them or acknowledge when ASTI are better on a particular issue, but just looking at last few posts here, the damage having two unions, and therefore a divide in approach by teachers, is so obvious. It's no wonder longer term issues like unequal pay never get sorted with one union constantly vying against the other. And both unions are equally culpable in this regard.

It's the INTOs fault that teacher pay won't get sorted. They keep accepting every pay deal. From what I hear the ASTI and INTO have been approaching the INTO asking for support and one voice on the issue, but no go.

noplacehere · 17-02-2021 09:43AM

History Queen wrote: »

Have to say I disagree with you Treppen. CBAs etc coming up thick and fast. I think JC clarity is needed, it isn't fair to keep them hanging on. And I i don't think engagement will go if a clear assessment structure is put in place for them.

This is my feelings for too. Like the LCs, junior cycle practicals are supposed to be in a couple of weeks. Classes could actually move into more productive work for cooking and performance for example as opposed to preparing pieces that realistically are never going to be cooked or performed for an examiner. And I don’t think engagement will change totally this far out. Give clarity early, include continuous assessment for the rest of the year and it will be fine. It’s different to the LCs who might actually leave school in my opinion.

History Queen · 17-02-2021 09:43AM

Treppen wrote: »

It's the INTOs fault that teacher pay won't get sorted. They keep accepting every pay deal. From what I hear the ASTI and INTO have been approaching the INTO asking for support and one voice on the issue, but no go.

I had heard that too re their approach (ASTI and TUI I assume you meant) and also that INTO have no interest in a joint action or approach.

noplacehere · 17-02-2021 09:44AM

Treppen wrote: »

It's the INTOs fault that teacher pay won't get sorted. They keep accepting every pay deal. From what I hear the ASTI and INTO have been approaching the INTO asking for support and one voice on the issue, but no go.

I totally agree on this one. INTO are the issue on this one. Although the TUI are not coming up smelling of roses on it. I’m always reminded of billy elliot ‘all out together, all out as one’ which we pretty much never get

wirelessdude01 · 17-02-2021 09:49AM

Treppen wrote: »

It's the INTOs fault that teacher pay won't get sorted. They keep accepting every pay deal. From what I hear the ASTI and INTO have been approaching the INTO asking for support and one voice on the issue, but no go.

I've raised same at branch and district level within thr INTO and keep getting told that the issues at primary and secondary level are different and that is the reason why there is no consolidated and uniform approach. I call BS though.

noplacehere · 17-02-2021 09:51AM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I've raised same at branch and district level within thr INTO and keep getting told that the issues T primary and secondary level are different and that is the reason why there is no consolidated and uniform approach. I call BS though.

It’s not as a big an issue in my opinion because they don’t have the hours culture to exacerbate the issue. By and large teachers are either in on full hours or only in for a few days as a sub or on social welfare. The salary shift isn’t as extreme. They don’t have the teachers sitting in the staff room praying for an hour or two subbing so they can pay the bills while getting experience

Rosita · 17-02-2021 09:57AM

PoolDude wrote: »

For JC last year my child’s school sent a table of how they were calculating grades by subject; weighting for each exam taken over 2nd & 3rd year, cba, online attendance & participation, upcoming summer exam, assignments/class work etc. It kept them engaged and worked well. I’ve another one doing it this year and would be fine with that approach again

One factor - schools were told to weight heavier to work done than what they did after lockdown - not sure how that will work this time

Interesting to see attendance considered as part of an exam grade. That's a big departure from the State exams and while I can could write a book about students' poor attendance I'm not sure I'd favour it in a terminal exam. Wasn't mentioned in our school last year which left it up to individual departments to make assessment decisions but I would expect to be in the minority in a staff meeting if I said that attendance should not be taken into account in a final grade.

I don't see any reason why students can't effectively sit a Junior Cert style exam in May (if schools want that) in the way that other classes sit summer exams. That's assuming we are back at school as normal of course.

History Queen · 17-02-2021 10:00AM

Rosita wrote: »

Interesting to see attendance considered as part of an exam grade. That's a big departure from the State exams and while I can could write a book about students' poor attendance I'm not sure I'd favour it in a terminal exam. Wasn't mentioned in our school last year which left it up to individual departments to make assessment decisions but I would expect to be in the minority in a staff meeting if I said that attendance should not be taken into account in a final grade.

I don't see any reason why students can't effectively sit a Junior Cert style exam in May (if schools want that) in the way that other classes sit summer exams. That's assuming we are back at school as normal of course.

Just as an aside, attendance is part of the calculation for LCA state exams, albeit as a minimum requirement rather than a %mark. There was a discussion around using attendance at our school too but ultimately we didn't.

Bobtheman · 17-02-2021 10:24AM

Look its going to be farcical. We all know this.
Anybody in education is an expert at looking two ways at once.
Thus play along. Get it over with.
Lie back and think of Ireland.
Then hope we are not having another discussion next year.
The media have hyped up the LC again.
Nothing on the other more pressing issues in our state like the ruin this has brought to thousands of lives.
The 50 billion we borrowed.

Random sample · 17-02-2021 10:28AM

I only wanted the cbas officially cancelled at this stage.

I’d like my class to sit an exam.

rainbowtrout · 17-02-2021 11:49AM

History Queen wrote: »

Just as an aside, attendance is part of the calculation for LCA state exams, albeit as a minimum requirement rather than a %mark. There was a discussion around using attendance at our school too but ultimately we didn't.

I think the big difference is that LCA know this in advance. It would be unfair to look at attendance retrospectively for a component of a JC grade.

shesty · 17-02-2021 11:51AM

Bobtheman wrote: »

Look its going to be farcical. We all know this.
Anybody in education is an expert at looking two ways at once.
Thus play along. Get it over with.
Lie back and think of Ireland.
Then hope we are not having another discussion next year.
The media have hyped up the LC again.
Nothing on the other more pressing issues in our state like the ruin this has brought to thousands of lives.
The 50 billion we borrowed.

The inevitable cuts to education and childcare that will be required to pay for all of this.....

History Queen · 17-02-2021 11:53AM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I think the big difference is that LCA know this in advance. It would be unfair to look at attendance retrospectively for a component of a JC grade.

That was essentially the conclusion we came to.

r93kaey5p2izun · 17-02-2021 12:00PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I think the big difference is that LCA know this in advance. It would be unfair to look at attendance retrospectively for a component of a JC grade.

No more than it would be fair to retrospectively look at Christmas, Summer or even mock exams for a JC or LC grade, I suppose! I wonder did schools who rejected attendance playing a part in weighting a predicted result, similarly reject school exams in playing a part in weighting.

I don't agree with attendance playing a part, but it's strange logic to deem it unfair in retrospect if exams are used for a different purpose than intended in retrospect. It just shows how farcical the whole thing is with no agreed plan, and that we are here again for a second year truly is astounding!

Rosita · 17-02-2021 01:36PM

Nyla Worried Son wrote: »

No more than it would be fair to retrospectively look at Christmas, Summer or even mock exams for a JC or LC grade, I suppose! I wonder did schools who rejected attendance playing a part in weighting a predicted result, similarly reject school exams in playing a part in weighting.

I don't agree with attendance playing a part, but it's strange logic to deem it unfair in retrospect if exams are used for a different purpose than intended in retrospect. It just shows how farcical the whole thing is with no agreed plan, and that we are here again for a second year truly is astounding!

Obviously the exams are considered in retrospect and that's a debate, but at least they are - for all the caveats that might be around them - measuring academic performance under exam conditions which is what the JC and LC seek to do. Attendance is a different kettle of fish.

km79 · 17-02-2021 01:46PM

http://twitter.com/JMB_Secretariat/status/1362002118631129094

Still making up jobs for the inspectors in a year when schools are crying out for subs
Send them back to the classroom

Wombatman · 17-02-2021 02:24PM

Schools are safe.

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am_zarathustra · 17-02-2021 02:25PM

km79 wrote: »

http://twitter.com/JMB_Secretariat/status/1362002118631129094

Still making up jobs for the inspectors in a year when schools are crying out for subs
Send them back to the classroom

Who rings this? I'd no more look for advice from them than a randomer on the street. I mean, it would be great craic to inundate them with requests but I really don't have the time!

am_zarathustra · 17-02-2021 02:27PM

Rosita wrote: »

Obviously the exams are considered in retrospect and that's a debate, but at least they are - for all the caveats that might be around them - measuring academic performance under exam conditions which is what the JC and LC seek to do. Attendance is a different kettle of fish.

We'd have kids kept at home by unfit parents when they are struggling mentally, they'd be good enough students and probably shouldn't be punished because their sisters waster of a bf has got released and left them with the kids. The whole system is arbitrary I agree, but we'd usually manage to get them into school for exams so it's a fairer metric than attendence.

Attendence is also vital to attainment so you might end up doubly punishing by including it.

wirelessdude01 · 17-02-2021 02:37PM

km79 wrote: »

http://twitter.com/JMB_Secretariat/status/1362002118631129094

Still making up jobs for the inspectors in a year when schools are crying out for subs
Send them back to the classroom

Ring people who haven't taught remotely or in some cases haven't taught for manys years for advice on remote teaching. Couldn't make this rubbish up.

Wombatman · 17-02-2021 02:44PM

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Ring people who haven't taught remotely or in some cases haven't taught for manys years for advice on remote teaching. Couldn't make this rubbish up.

I'd hold fire. They might be the point of contact for help and supports around the imminent PG assessment, orals, practical's and project work completion.

I feel for ye, because an LC announcement is due today following by an inevitable sh1tstorm of work over a condensed period. Ye might need to reach out at that point.

deiseindublin · 17-02-2021 02:46PM

History Queen wrote: »

Just as an aside, attendance is part of the calculation for LCA state exams, albeit as a minimum requirement rather than a %mark. There was a discussion around using attendance at our school too but ultimately we didn't.

I don't really agree with the LCA attendance thing tbh. Maybe give 10% extra above a certain threshold, but any assessment needs to be outcome based. You can have a waster in every day annoying the others in the class but it means Jack Sh*t about what he/she has learned. Their attendance does inhibit others ability to learn though.

I see 1pm news saying that students will have to pick LC exam or CG in advance, with all results released together.

I think that's a horrendous choice for an LC to make. I've an LC in the house and she could well just sit all papers rather than trust the system I'd say.

Honestly, wellbeing and mental health my arse.

rainbowtrout · 17-02-2021 02:52PM

km79 wrote: »

http://twitter.com/JMB_Secretariat/status/1362002118631129094

Still making up jobs for the inspectors in a year when schools are crying out for subs
Send them back to the classroom

Isn't that what the NCCA, PDST, JCT and various subject associations already do?

am_zarathustra · 17-02-2021 02:53PM

deiseindublin wrote: »

I don't really agree with the LCA attendance thing tbh. Maybe give 10% extra above a certain threshold, but any assessment needs to be outcome based. You can have a waster in every day annoying the others in the class but it means Jack Sh*t about what he/she has learned. Their attendance does inhibit others ability to learn though.

I see 1pm news saying that students will have to pick LC exam or CG in advance, with all results released together.

I think that's a horrendous choice for an LC to make. I've an LC in the house and she could well just sit all papers rather than trust the system I'd say.

Honestly, wellbeing and mental health my arse.

Jesus the forced choice is worse than anything, if both are standardised it's a guessing game as to where the brightest will go, my guess it to exams but hard to know!!

It needs to be clearly explained how any downgrading will be done too

rainbowtrout · 17-02-2021 02:54PM

Wombatman wrote: »

I'd hold fire. They might be the point of contact for help and supports around the imminent PG assessment, orals, practical's and project work completion.

I feel for ye, because an LC announcement is due today following by an inevitable sh1tstorm of work over a condensed period. Ye might need to reach out at that point.

The Inspectorate is the last place any teacher would contact if they needed help.

rainbowtrout · 17-02-2021 03:00PM

deiseindublin wrote: »

I see 1pm news saying that students will have to pick LC exam or CG in advance, with all results released together.

I think that's a horrendous choice for an LC to make. I've an LC in the house and she could well just sit all papers rather than trust the system I'd say.

Honestly, wellbeing and mental health my arse.

I don't think it's a horrendous, it might stop people gaming the system, if a student is serious about sitting the exams, and some students are, only their voices aren't heard on social media, then they can buckle down and do the work. The ones who want a predicted grade are getting exactly what they wanted.

Students can choose the default option and sit the exams. If they want a predicted grade which some have been calling for they can have that too. They don't have to opt for it. If they feel the predicted grades could be a mess, then the exam is the most straightforward, and what they had been working towards the last two years.

noplacehere · 17-02-2021 03:05PM

I can’t see how else they could have done it to be honest. It’s too early in the year to have them switch off and they would barely have the predicted grades out in time for a student to opt to sit the papers. This is probably the closest scenario to one I’m happy with that’s possible. Though I would be interested to hear how the predicted grades are proposed and when they are submitted. Are we allowed continue to collect data (unlike last year) for example
And are they proposing to do more paper mitigation or is that it?

am_zarathustra · 17-02-2021 03:10PM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

The Inspectorate is the last place any teacher would contact if they needed help.

Can you imagine?? I'd be better off asking the kids!

am_zarathustra · 17-02-2021 03:11PM

I wonder is it subject by subject or all or nothing??

The way forward for LC2021

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