The way forward for LC2021

Mardy Bum · 16-02-2021 10:39PM

km79 wrote: »

http://twitter.com/newschambers/status/1361764648094171144

Looks like the TUI are trying to get ahead of things again
I would say LC teachers will be predicting grades very soon and that orals , practicals etc are also going to go ahead

TUI (DES subsidiary) trying their best to implement Ruairi Quinn's original conception of the Junior Cycle - school based assessment only.

Wombatman · 16-02-2021 10:48PM

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin is the worst type of grandstanding, hurler on the ditch, but I did enjoy this soundbite .......

"Unfortunately the Department now resemble a dysfunctional debs committee".

History Queen · 16-02-2021 10:54PM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

TUI (DES subsidiary) trying their best to implement Ruairi Quinn's original conception of the Junior Cycle - school based assessment only.

To be fair what's the alternative? Don't assess them at all? I was at a TUI meeting where members of the executive were talking about the importance of the JC running to avoid exactly this (school based assessment) and the amount of teachers who responded with comments along the line of "if it means saving the LC let it go".

From the TUI statement:
"The TUI said it was making the request to cancel the Junior Cert exams on the basis that no precedent would be set and that the exams would be reinstated in 2022."

History Queen · 16-02-2021 11:02PM

Wombatman wrote: »

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin is the worst type of grandstanding, hurler on the ditch, but I did enjoy this soundbite .......

"Unfortunately the Department now resemble a dysfunctional debs committee".

Real hurler on the ditch stuff... the soundbite wasn't exactly his own.

https://twitter.com/AodhanORiordain/status/1361783238251970571?s=19

trihead · 16-02-2021 11:04PM

Wombatman wrote: »

Aodhán Ó Ríordáin is the worst type of grandstanding, hurler on the ditch, but I did enjoy this soundbite .......

"Unfortunately the Department now resemble a dysfunctional debs committee".

I'm usually no fan of his but his speech a few weeks ago at Norma (Josepha got a mention too) was great to watch -x

PoolDude · 16-02-2021 11:08PM

There you go, Leo the Leak confirming on prime time more or less what’s happening. LC in June as planned. PG option and sounding like results ahead of the LC exams. JC and LC can’t happen at same time but didn’t manage to leak JC is cancelled - suspect the confirmation they can’t happen together prompted TUI.

Rosita · 16-02-2021 11:11PM

History Queen wrote: »

To be fair what's the alternative? Don't assess them at all? I was at a TUI meeting where members of the executive were talking about the importance of the JC running to avoid exactly this (school based assessment) and the amount of teachers who responded with comments along the line of "if it means saving the LC let it go".

From the TUI statement:
"The TUI said it was making the request to cancel the Junior Cert exams on the basis that no precedent would be set and that the exams would be reinstated in 2022."

What's the logic for looking to cancel the JC. Like if we are all going to be back in school shortly why couldn't the JC go ahead? That'd be the best way of avoiding an undesirable precedent surely?

Rosita · 16-02-2021 11:16PM

And while I'm at it, could people stop texting Claire Byrne, Matt Cooper et al with the bright idea of doing Orals over Zoom. The last thing that will stop the Orals happening is the inability of an examiner to sit at the other side of a perspex screen from a student. They're in front of 30 odd every class with no screen most of the time (in my school anyway). Suggesting Zoom is providing a solution for a problem that doesn't exist. Appointing examiners and setting dates - NORMAlly (sorry, couldn't resist!) done months ago, are more pressing issues, assuming they gave an interest in doing the Orals.

Polka_Dot · 16-02-2021 11:17PM

Rosita wrote: »

What's the logic for looking to cancel the JC. Like if we are all going to be back in school shortly why couldn't the JC go ahead? That'd be the best way of avoiding an undesirable precedent surely?

The Irish Times is reporting it as giving "more time to focus" on LC students, but I'd assume that not having the JC would allow for more social distancing of LC candidates in centres for one

PoolDude · 16-02-2021 11:21PM

Polka_Dot wrote: »

The Irish Times is reporting it as giving "more time to focus" on LC students, but I'd assume that not having the JC would allow for more social distancing of LC candidates in centres for one

Leo confirmed in prime time the LC and Jc can’t happen at the same time due to space requirements

History Queen · 16-02-2021 11:22PM

Rosita wrote: »

What's the logic for looking to cancel the JC. Like if we are all going to be back in school shortly why couldn't the JC go ahead? That'd be the best way of avoiding an undesirable precedent surely?

According to the statement, public health advice:

"The TUI has been advised that, based on public health advice, it will not be possible logistically to hold the Junior Certificate and the Leaving Certificate exams in tandem in June in the normal manner."

joebloggs32 · 16-02-2021 11:27PM

Rosita wrote: »

What's the logic for looking to cancel the JC. Like if we are all going to be back in school shortly why couldn't the JC go ahead? That'd be the best way of avoiding an undesirable precedent surely?

If the leaving exams happen it will need more centres and less students in them. So the JC cant run parallel to it.
Last summer there wasn't too much fuss over schools using their own data to give grades, so its the easiest option to go for something similar.

Mardy Bum · 17-02-2021 12:31AM

History Queen wrote: »

To be fair what's the alternative? Don't assess them at all? I was at a TUI meeting where members of the executive were talking about the importance of the JC running to avoid exactly this (school based assessment) and the amount of teachers who responded with comments along the line of "if it means saving the LC let it go".

From the TUI statement:
"The TUI said it was making the request to cancel the Junior Cert exams on the basis that no precedent would be set and that the exams would be reinstated in 2022."

Considering all the stunts pulled by the TUI executive, especially last week, it is hard to view anything they say or do in good faith.

History Queen · 17-02-2021 12:36AM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

Considering all the stunts pulled by the TUI executive, especially last week, it is hard to view anything they say or do in good faith.

I criticise them as much as anyone, but on this I don't think they're wrong.

deiseindublin · 17-02-2021 12:43AM

All the weeks are blurring. Which was last weeks stunt? Saying they'd open next week, or MG throwing ASTI under a bus on radio?

Rosita · 17-02-2021 01:43AM

History Queen wrote: »

According to the statement, public health advice:

"The TUI has been advised that, based on public health advice, it will not be possible logistically to hold the Junior Certificate and the Leaving Certificate exams in tandem in June in the normal manner."

If a school cannot hold exams for say 200 students in June, how can they accommodate 700 students in school every day?

Rosita · 17-02-2021 01:45AM

joebloggs32 wrote: »

If the leaving exams happen it will need more centres and less students in them. So the JC cant run parallel to it.
Last summer there wasn't too much fuss over schools using their own data to give grades, so its the easiest option to go for something similar.

Must say that in our case it was a specific summer test for Third Years, rather than a broader collection of data as is implied here.

rainbowtrout · 17-02-2021 01:48AM

I posted it here a few weeks ago. Stagger the exams. Start the JC a week to 10 days after the LC. Get the big LC exams out of the way so when the minority subjects are on, the number of rooms needed in a school will be reduced. Run the smaller exams for JC at this time. As the LC is down to the stragglers doing Ancient Greek and Latin etc, then run the core subjects for JC. It's not that hard.

Even if they just ran the exams in English, Irish and Maths given that they have been reduced to one paper it wouldn't be hard to fit in a JC of some sort. Where there's a will there's a way.

Rosita · 17-02-2021 02:01AM

rainbowtrout wrote: »

I posted it here a few weeks ago. Stagger the exams. Start the JC a week to 10 days after the LC. Get the big LC exams out of the way so when the minority subjects are on, the number of rooms needed in a school will be reduced. Run the smaller exams for JC at this time. As the LC is down to the stragglers doing Ancient Greek and Latin etc, then run the core subjects for JC. It's not that hard.

Even if they just ran the exams in English, Irish and Maths given that they have been reduced to one paper it wouldn't be hard to fit in a JC of some sort. Where there's a will there's a way.

But what does the fact this discussion is taking place say about the prospects for schools in between when accommodating less than a third of the school at the same time is considered a problem in June?

Treppen · 17-02-2021 02:23AM

As I said before, the Junior cert is well dead for this year. No way anyone would want the hassle of doubling up on covid prep for both JC and LC and hiring double staff etc. I know it can be done where there's a hook or by crook way... but you know yourself..

The only reason why nobody can/should mention it is because 3rd year students wouldn't do a tap from now till June if it became official.

TUI are like the clueless eejits trying to capitalise some bit in the media by bringing up the Junior Cert ... meanwhile everyone around the table are starin at them like they're the clueless nerd who reminds the teacher that they were supposed to give a test today.

Meanwhile the #JC2021 will now start demanding clarity and compassion cos they're also stressed and don't know if they should be learning or not.

Stfu about the JC and get the Leaving Cert sorted.

Sorry for the unparliamentary language.

The Junior Cert is a very important exam.

rainbowtrout · 17-02-2021 02:34AM

Rosita wrote: »

But what does the fact this discussion is taking place say about the prospects for schools in between when accommodating less than a third of the school at the same time is considered a problem in June?

Oh I know, there's no logic to it whatsoever. If you can have 24 Leaving Certs in a classroom on March 1st, then you should be able to have 24 of them in a room doing an exam on June 8th.

PoolDude · 17-02-2021 08:19AM

For JC last year my child’s school sent a table of how they were calculating grades by subject; weighting for each exam taken over 2nd & 3rd year, cba, online attendance & participation, upcoming summer exam, assignments/class work etc. It kept them engaged and worked well. I’ve another one doing it this year and would be fine with that approach again

One factor - schools were told to weight heavier to work done than what they did after lockdown - not sure how that will work this time

History Queen · 17-02-2021 08:30AM

Rosita wrote: »

If a school cannot hold exams for say 200 students in June, how can they accommodate 700 students in school every day?

God knows?! Duration of exams a factor maybe? I really don't know. I've given up trying to find logic in the approach to schools.

I think a lot of ye are aware I'm in the TUI but that I've no bother criticise them or acknowledge when ASTI are better on a particular issue, but just looking at last few posts here, the damage having two unions, and therefore a divide in approach by teachers, is so obvious. It's no wonder longer term issues like unequal pay never get sorted with one union constantly vying against the other. And both unions are equally culpable in this regard.

PoolDude · 17-02-2021 09:10AM

I see the Indo is running this: Students have highest Covid infection rates after health workers in third wave

Its a slightly different angle on the point I’ve made here before around the challenge of putting the most infectious group (older students) together with one of the most infected age groups from a few weeks back (teachers in the 35-45 age group) but highlights the same risk.

noplacehere · 17-02-2021 09:13AM

There absolutely needs to be one union. No question on that

However I am delighted to see the TUI bring up the JC. They have been completely ignored. Parents are fuming. No harm for one of the unions to get brownie points by being ahead of the media coverage for once. The dogs on the street know the JC is going to be cancelled. We knew it the day the schools closed again. Let it be done in a coherent fashion with time for schools to plan for what form it will take for students before they are back in front of them

Mardy Bum · 17-02-2021 09:26AM

The Examiner ran a story last night that the March 1st start date being touted was never mentioned at Cabinet. Other ministers have no idea where it came from and points out that there is no plan. Interestingly, no other paper corrected the record on this falsity that is now countrywide.

wirelessdude01 · 17-02-2021 09:29AM

Mardy Bum wrote: »

The Examiner ran a story last night that the March 1st start date being touted was never mentioned at Cabinet. Other ministers have no idea where it came from and points out that there is no plan. Interestingly, no other paper corrected the record on this falsity that is now countrywide.

But remember that Norma is and I quote "a good minister".

Treppen · 17-02-2021 09:33AM

PoolDude wrote: »

For JC last year my child’s school sent a table of how they were calculating grades by subject; weighting for each exam taken over 2nd & 3rd year, cba, online attendance & participation, upcoming summer exam, assignments/class work etc. It kept them engaged and worked well. I’ve another one doing it this year and would be fine with that approach again

One factor - schools were told to weight heavier to work done than what they did after lockdown - not sure how that will work this time

We did that also but included an online test which they had an hour window to complete. It would have been tricky enough to copy given the nature of the questions and time allowed. Unfortunately some students who worked really hard and engaged with the classes during lockdown really improved but the weighting didn't allow that much for the improvement. If it were the real exam I'm sure they would have shot up a grade or two.

Treppen · 17-02-2021 09:36AM

noplacehere wrote: »

There absolutely needs to be one union. No question on that

However I am delighted to see the TUI bring up the JC. They have been completely ignored. Parents are fuming. No harm for one of the unions to get brownie points by being ahead of the media coverage for once. The dogs on the street know the JC is going to be cancelled. We knew it the day the schools closed again. Let it be done in a coherent fashion with time for schools to plan for what form it will take for students before they are back in front of them

Right now is not the time to be having talks about the Junior Cert hence why I'd be critical of the TUI in doing a sideshow dance on it just for the media likes.

Once it's announced then that's bye bye to a lot of student engagement. Better to keep them at it and you might at least get a summer test out of it.

Why would parents be fuming anyway?

History Queen · 17-02-2021 09:38AM

Treppen wrote: »

This is not the time to be having talks about the Junior Cert hence why I'd be critical of the TUI in doing a sideshow dance on it just for the media likes.

Once it's announced then that's bye bye to a lot of student engagement. Better to keep them at it and you might at least get a summer test out of it.

Have to say I disagree with you Treppen. CBAs etc coming up thick and fast. I think JC clarity is needed, it isn't fair to keep them hanging on. And I i don't think engagement will go if a clear assessment structure is put in place for them.

The way forward for LC2021

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