Joe Biden Presidency thread Please read OP - Threadbanned Users Added 4/5/21

ExMachina1000 · 14-02-2021 03:17PM

ollkiller wrote: »

You obviously know nothing about economics then. Immigration in the short term suppresses wages and in the long term leads to higher wages and a higher standard of living. More people equals more consumption etc etc. Same idiotic argument trotted out by gullible fools who believe sound bites by right wing commentators. When in fact the right wing commentators trot out this nonsense as it will stop people looking at their finances and how they, and not the immigrants are the reason for no minimum wage and terrible working conditions and general basic rights for workers.

How long is the short term? Can people just cut back on day to day expenses until the "short term" passes

"This second message might be hard for many Americans to process, but anyone who tells you that immigration doesn’t have any negative effects doesn’t understand how it really works. When the supply of workers goes up, the price that firms have to pay to hire workers goes down. Wage trends over the past half-century suggest that a 10 percent increase in the number of workers with a particular set of skills probably lowers the wage of that group by at least 3 percent. Even after the economy has fully adjusted, those skill groups that received the most immigrants will still offer lower pay relative to those that received fewer immigrants"

"George J. Borjas is professor of economics and social policy at the Harvard Kennedy School and author of the forthcoming We Wanted Workers: Unraveling the Immigration Narrative"

Cody montana · 14-02-2021 03:23PM

stefanovich wrote: »

Dismantling the wall to increase voter base and suppress wages of the poorest.

Please google the nonsense you posted.

12gauge dave · 14-02-2021 03:48PM

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

How long is the short term? Can people just cut back on day to day expenses until the "short term" passes

"This second message might be hard for many Americans to process, but anyone who tells you that immigration doesn’t have any negative effects doesn’t understand how it really works. When the supply of workers goes up, the price that firms have to pay to hire workers goes down. Wage trends over the past half-century suggest that a 10 percent increase in the number of workers with a particular set of skills probably lowers the wage of that group by at least 3 percent. Even after the economy has fully adjusted, those skill groups that received the most immigrants will still offer lower pay relative to those that received fewer immigrants"

"George J. Borjas is professor of economics and social policy at the Harvard Kennedy School and author of the forthcoming We Wanted Workers: Unraveling the Immigration Narrative"

Excellent post

Water John · 14-02-2021 03:55PM

What level immigrants come in at and also aspire to has implications in the turnout for the economy. Don't think you'll find many US citizens anxious to work in boning halls.

duploelabs · 14-02-2021 03:59PM

Water John wrote: »

What level immigrants come in at and also aspire to has implications in the turnout for the economy. Don't think you'll find many US citizens anxious to work in boning halls.

The entire hospitality industry in America is built on immigrants

astrofool · 14-02-2021 04:06PM

astrofool wrote: »

This is funny because of how utterly clueless you seem to be.

How long do you think the border fencing between Mexico and the United States currently is (I'll give you a hint, Joe Biden knows).

You'll have to use Google yourself this time.

Any answer to this Dave?, or are you just going to stick to thanking posts for a while?

Leroy42 · 14-02-2021 04:26PM

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

How long is the short term? Can people just cut back on day to day expenses until the "short term" passes

"This second message might be hard for many Americans to process, but anyone who tells you that immigration doesn’t have any negative effects doesn’t understand how it really works. When the supply of workers goes up, the price that firms have to pay to hire workers goes down. Wage trends over the past half-century suggest that a 10 percent increase in the number of workers with a particular set of skills probably lowers the wage of that group by at least 3 percent. Even after the economy has fully adjusted, those skill groups that received the most immigrants will still offer lower pay relative to those that received fewer immigrants"

"George J. Borjas is professor of economics and social policy at the Harvard Kennedy School and author of the forthcoming We Wanted Workers: Unraveling the Immigration Narrative"

A higher minimum wage would deal with that in the stroke of a pen.

But it is far easier to blame immigrants than actually do something

ExMachina1000 · 14-02-2021 05:25PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

A higher minimum wage would deal with that in the stroke of a pen.

But it is far easier to blame immigrants than actually do something

A higher minimum wage has nothing to do with immigration.

You are saying a Harvard economist analysing 50 years of data is wrong but you are correct?

Back it up please. Let's hear it

ollkiller · 14-02-2021 06:00PM

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

A higher minimum wage has nothing to do with immigration.

But in one fail swoop would cancel your point that immigration drives down wages. Any country without a minimum wage basically doesn't give a f**k about it's citizens.

Munstersrebel · 14-02-2021 06:00PM

stefanovich wrote: »

I bet you wouldn’t afford Trump the same benefit of the doubt.

Correct me but isnt there at least 1 sexual assault civil suit on going against the Seditious one?

And then how he bullied Stormy Daniels and others... And the connections with a certain autocratic Republic... And so on and on. In 4 yrs the only thing he did was lower taxed for the rich and sign an order for delayed tax increases for when his first term would have ended.

Carfacemandog · 14-02-2021 06:01PM

stefanovich wrote: »

Dismantling the wall to increase voter base and suppress wages of the poorest.

I would point out that immigrants can't vote, but you already knew that before you posted this nonsense.

Leroy42 · 14-02-2021 06:10PM

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

A higher minimum wage has nothing to do with immigration.

You are saying a Harvard economist analysing 50 years of data is wrong but you are correct?

Back it up please. Let's hear it

You said, or the economist said, that every 10% increase in numbers leads to 3% reduction. But minimum wage stops that happening.

So it stands to reason if you remove the ability to reduce the wage that wages don't drop.

Did the economist take account of potential impacts?

ExMachina1000 · 14-02-2021 06:11PM

ollkiller wrote: »

But in one fail swoop would cancel your point that immigration drives down wages. Any country without a minimum wage basically doesn't give a f**k about it's citizens.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/02/10/one-third-of-small-businesses-say-15-minimum-wage-means-layoffs.html#aoh=16133225019473&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s

More money per hour but less people employed. 1.3 million less

Leroy42 · 14-02-2021 06:13PM

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/02/10/one-third-of-small-businesses-say-15-minimum-wage-means-layoffs.html#aoh=16133225019473&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=From%20%251%24s

More money per hour but less people employed. 1.3 million less

So wages are dropping to maintain jobs, it would be happening regardless of immigration.

Are wage rates because too many immigrants or because its what businesses can afford?

You can't have both

ExMachina1000 · 14-02-2021 06:18PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

So wages are dropping to maintain jobs, it would be happening regardless of immigration.

Are wage rates because too many immigrants or because its what businesses can afford?

You can't have both

Raise the minimum wage - 1/3 of businesses let staff go. With or without immigration.

It's a separate story.

One would imagine that allowing large numbers into a country when there are less low paid jobs available due to businesses unable to keep the same staffing levels to be a real recipe for success.

You end up with unemployed Americans and unemployed immigrants. Nobody wins.

Business owners have said so about the costs themselves. I don't know what's left to argue

Leroy42 · 14-02-2021 06:24PM

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Raise the minimum wage - 1/3 of businesses let staff go. With or without immigration.

It's a separate story.

Ine would imagine that allowing large numbers into a country when there are less low paid jobs available due to businesses unable to keep the same staffing levels to be a real recipe for success.

You end up with unemployed Americans and unemployed immigrants. Nobody wins.

Business owners have said so about the costs themselves. I don't know what's left to argue

Because you are arguing that immigrants lead directly to lower wages.

An easy solution is to stop employers reducing the wage. Now there is no Incentive to hire illegals as they cost the same but carry more risk.

If a business cannot survive without paying a minimum wage then there is a problem with that business. And that is a wider discussion.

Do immigrants lead to lowering of wages and if they do whybeven bring business ability to pay into it?

Christy42 · 14-02-2021 06:27PM

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Raise the minimum wage - 1/3 of businesses let staff go. With or without immigration.

It's a separate story.

One would imagine that allowing large numbers into a country when there are less low paid jobs available due to businesses unable to keep the same staffing levels to be a real recipe for success.

You end up with unemployed Americans and unemployed immigrants. Nobody wins.

Business owners have said so about the costs themselves. I don't know what's left to argue

Why are they hiring so many people they don't need? That seems super confusing to me. If they need them they will hire them and if they don't they wouldn't have been hired already.

Certainly over the last year masses of money have been funnelled to billionaires so they obviously have enough to hire people.

ExMachina1000 · 14-02-2021 06:29PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Because you are arguing that immigrants lead directly to lower wages.

If a business cannot survive without paying a minimum wage then there is a problem with that business. And that is a wider discussion.

Do immigrants lead to lowering of wages and if they do whybeven bring business ability to pay into it?

Who are you to make the call that businesses should be able to absorb the cost of doubling the wages of its minimum paid workers?
Have you looked their books? Their operating costs? The profit margins?

Maybe they should just close completely?

"If a business cannot survive without paying a minimum wage then there is a problem with that business"

Biggest load of rubbish iv read in a long while. Such a lack of knowledge

Do immigrants lower wages? Yes they do. But dont take my word for it. Take the word of a Harvard economist studying 50 years of data.

I linked it above

Biden would have a team of economists and all sorts of advisers working for him. These people know what happens to small businesses ( the backbone of the economy) if the minimum wage was to be doubled. I can cast iron guarantee it wont happen nationwide. Not a hope in hell. No chance. Zero

Leroy42 · 14-02-2021 06:35PM

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Who are you to make the call that businesses should be able to absorb the cost of doubling the wages of its minimum paid workers?
Have you looked their books? Their operating costs? The profit margins?

Maybe they should just close completely?

"If a business cannot survive without paying a minimum wage then there is a problem with that business"

Biggest load of rubbish iv read in a long while. Such a lack of knowledge

Do immigrants lower wages? Yes they do. But dont take my word for it. Take the word of a Harvard economist studying 50 years of data.

I linked it above

Of course illegals reduce wages, if there are no constraints on a business using them to force legals to accept lower wage or lose their job. The points you quoted dealt with that reality, it didn't take account of a regulated minimum wage.

You then sidetracked to make a point that businesses can't afford to pay people. So, are you are now claiming that its the business costs driving down wage rates, and immigrants are just the suckers used to prop up the business.

I am only asking which you believe. Is it that immigrants are driving down wages or wages are low because that is all the company can afford.

Which is it?

Where did I mention a doubling of the minimum wage?

ExMachina1000 · 14-02-2021 06:36PM

Leroy42 wrote: »

Of course illegals reduce wages, if there are no constraints on them doing so. The points you quoted dealt with that reality, it didn't take account of a regulated minimum wage.

You then sidetracked to make a point that businesses can afford to pay people. So, I'm you are now claiming that its the business costs driving down wage rates, and immigrants are just the sockets used to prop up the business.

I am only asking which you believe. Is it that immigrants are driving down wages or wages are low because that is all the company can afford.

Which is it?

No what you are doing is sidestepping all of the data and educated opinion that I'm am throwing at you.

Some sort of side mission based on fantasy and sticking it to the billionaires

14-02-2021 06:39PM

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

Who are you to make the call that businesses should be able to absorb the cost of doubling the wages of its minimum paid workers?
Have you looked their books? Their operating costs? The profit margins?

Maybe they should just close completely?

Maybe they should??

If a job deosnt pay a living wage,then it isnt worth doing and its pure wrong to expect people to work for less than a living wage (1913 lockouts in dublin were essentially about this,how in 2021 its even up for debate is beyond me)

Now yous are right about immigrants accepting lower wages,anyone would to get ahead/start life in a new country.....but the problem is inherently people are being paid too little/gig contracts/messing about with hours.....noone should need to work 2-3 jobs,just to survive

Leroy42 · 14-02-2021 06:41PM

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

No what you are doing is sidestepping all of the data and educated opinion that I'm am throwing at you.

Some sort of side mission based on fantasy and sticking it to the billionaires

I'm really not. Your economist is not arguing what you think he is. He is making the point that currently, illegal immigrants drive down wages. But not that a proper minimum wage wouldn't sort out that problem.

You are looking at the data as if there is no other way but the current way.

Why hire an illegal, with the possible legal ramifications of that, when they cost the exact same as a legal?

14-02-2021 06:46PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Maybe they should??

If a job deosnt pay a living wage,then it isnt worth doing and its pure wrong to expect people to work for less than a living wage (1913 lockouts in dublin were essentially about this,how in 2021 its even up for debate is beyond me)

Now yous are right about immigrants accepting lower wages,anyone would to get ahead/start life in a new country.....but the problem is inherently people are being paid too little/gig contracts/messing about with hours.....noone should need to work 2-3 jobs,just to survive

That's basically it, machina is arguing for the right to pay exploitative salaries. And we're supposed to sympathise with the business being forced to raise salaries?

ExMachina1000 · 14-02-2021 06:56PM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

That's basically it, machina is arguing for the right to pay exploitative salaries. And we're supposed to sympathise with the business being forced to raise salaries?

I cant understand why this is complicated but il try one more time. This with an example.

Let's take a shop in one of the many poor areas of the United states . An electrical shop in lower Santan village, Arizona

The shop has 5 staff on minimum wage and margins are thin due to the low economic area it is based. Ie people are too poor to be upgrading their tvs or home entertainment regularly.

The minimum wage doubles and the owner has to pay twice the current wage for the same level of return in the form of staff labour. The profit margin drops further so the owner let's 2 staff members go. 2 people now have no job with little chance of getting one somewhere else. Raising the prices of items in the shop affects the customers who already cant afford regular upgrades. The business suffers even further

Or like suggested the " business should just close" .
5 people lose their jobs and the area loses yet another business.

Joe Biden and team know that small businesses are the backbone of any economy. The doubling of the minimum wage will not be happening. Not a hope

gizmo · 14-02-2021 07:30PM

ExMachina1000 wrote: »

I cant understand why this is complicated but il try one more time. This with an example.

Let's take a shop in one of the many poor areas of the United states . An electrical shop in lower Santan village, Arizona

The shop has 5 staff on minimum wage and margins are thin due to the low economic area it is based. Ie people are too poor to be upgrading their tvs or home entertainment regularly.

The minimum wage doubles and the owner has to pay twice the current wage for the same level of return in the form of staff labour. The profit margin drops further so the owner let's 2 staff members go. 2 people now have no job with little chance of getting one somewhere else. Raising the prices of items in the shop affects the customers who already cant afford regular upgrades. The business suffers even further

Or like suggested the " business should just close" .
5 people lose their jobs and the area loses yet another business.

Joe Biden and team know that small businesses are the backbone of any economy. The doubling of the minimum wage will not be happening. Not a hope

Two points, of varying relevancy, apply here.

As of January 1st of this year, the minimum wage in Arizona is already $12.15. This is set at a state level and has seen an incremental increase since the passing of Proposition 206, a state-wide ballot in 2006.

On the federal side of things, the Fair Labor Standards Act, which is what has determined the current $7.25 level of minimum wage across the country, has an important exception. As per the Department of Labor, it applies "...to employees of enterprises that have annual gross volume of sales or business done of at least $500,000". While Biden's plan has measures which would remove some of the exemptions that currently allow employers to pay under the minimum to certain groups, namely people with disabilities and those aged under 20, the above exemption has, to date, not being discussed.

Thankfully the electrical shop in your example would therefore still be exempt from any increase should Biden's measure pass.

stefanovich · 14-02-2021 07:37PM

So with a stroke of a pen Biden cancels 11000 jobs. What will be the outcome of Biden’s policy of job destruction?

stefanovich · 14-02-2021 07:38PM

stefanovich wrote: »

So with a stroke of a pen Biden cancels 11000 jobs. What will be the outcome of Biden’s policy of job destruction?

According to John Kerry they should have made better life choices.

Tell me how · 14-02-2021 07:43PM

stefanovich wrote: »

So with a stroke of a pen Biden cancels 11000 jobs. What will be the outcome of Biden’s policy of job destruction? protects native heartlands from being destroyed by a commercial project

Fixed your post.

Those 11,000 jobs were temporary as well, let's not ignore that.

14-02-2021 07:46PM

stefanovich wrote: »

According to John Kerry they should have made better life choices.

Got a link for that?

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/policy/energy/kerry-biden-offering-displaced-workers-better-choices?_amp=true

President Biden’s top climate officials on Wednesday sought to assure that their actions targeting fossil fuel production in order to combat climate change won’t lead to a massive displacement of jobs.

“What President Biden wants to do is make sure those folks have better choices, that they have alternatives,” Biden’s international climate envoy John Kerry said of fossil fuel workers. “They can be the people who go to work to build the solar panels, making them here at home.”

Water John · 14-02-2021 07:51PM

Poster saying Sanders min $15/hr would double present min wage. So who works for €6/hr and what society thinks it acceptable?

Joe Biden Presidency thread *Please read OP - Threadbanned Users Added 4/5/21*

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Joe Biden Presidency thread Please read OP - Threadbanned Users Added 4/5/21