What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

Wolf359f · 12-02-2021 11:52PM

astrofool wrote: »

It's looking like AZ in the field is doing a better job than it's phase 3 trials suggest, I'd still be waiting for more data before they recommend it for > 70's (and I'd still prioritize that group for mRNA), but things are looking up (even with the variants).

I think if you have mRNA vaccines available, it certainly should be used for the most vulnerable. When more data becomes available around AZ, that can be changed. But even if the efficancy of >70% is reflected in the over 65's, mRNA is still superior, so I would still assume it would be the preferred choice for the most at risk.

DaSilva · 13-02-2021 12:53AM

latency89 wrote: »

Doctors in Rome refusing to take Astrazeneca vaccine, preferring Pfizer

https://www.wantedinrome.com/news/covid-19-rome-doctors-refuse-astrazeneca-vaccine.html

Better than nothing is how I would put it too

Can't say I blame them, If I am a doctor I want the mRNA vaccines both for the higher protection and the efficacy against the SA variant, especially if that is what i've been promised.

I got absolutely roasted when I suggested I was fine taking the Oxford vaccine but that I wanted the over 60s in my family to get the Pfizer/Moderna vaccine.
You know, the over 60s being the folks who are actually at much higher risk of serious disease or death

astrofool · 13-02-2021 01:49AM

DaSilva wrote: »

I got absolutely roasted when I suggested I was fine taking the Oxford vaccine but that I wanted the over 60s in my family to get the Pfizer/Moderna vaccine.
You know, the over 60s being the folks who are actually at much higher risk of serious disease or death

I would also guess that they will have to be happy waiting a long time while everyone gets vaccinated ahead of them, while they wait on the surplus to appear.

McGiver · 13-02-2021 08:21AM

Aegir wrote:

Why on earth did we put so much emphasis on what the EMA and WHO decided when all we needed was McGiver off the internet.

WHO are not a regulatory body their opinion or vaccines is largely irrelevant. Mr pro-tory troll.

mista11 · 13-02-2021 11:53AM

Danzy wrote: »

That's a fantastically insane post.

Brillaint post - my favorite of the year so far, keep going Mcgiver amazing stuff

I am now going away to look at all the other vaccines, if any part of them is made in the UK i am not going to take them, lets stand together brothers

brickster69 · 13-02-2021 12:05PM

mista11 wrote: »

Brillaint post - my favorite of the year so far, keep going Mcgiver amazing stuff

I am now going away to look at all the other vaccines, if any part of them is made in the UK i am not going to take them, lets stand together brothers

Better not look at the Pfizer one then if i were you.

mista11 · 13-02-2021 12:29PM

brickster69 wrote: »

Better not look at the Pfizer one then if i were you.

Balls, thats just moderna left, can anyone confirm that there is absolotly nothing that comes from the UK in it, the thought of those tory toffs having a hand in any thing that goes into my body makes my skin crawl.

Much happier that me and my family take no vaccine and if the worst happens to me, ill go to the grave a happy man...you with me Mcgiver?

deeperlearning · 13-02-2021 01:46PM

The CMO insisting that those over 70, who are most at risk, receive superior vaccines with higher efficacy must be the act of a madman. :eek:

Yes, indeed.

Roger_007 · 13-02-2021 02:05PM

Does anyone know why Canada has not yet approved the AZ vaccine. Apparently they have only approved Pfizer and Moderna and are having supply issues.
The government there are coming under a lot of pressure due to the slow vaccination rate, (even worse than ours).

brickster69 · 13-02-2021 02:29PM

deeperlearning wrote: »

The CMO insisting that those over 70, who are most at risk, receive superior vaccines with higher efficacy must be the act of a madman. :eek:

Yes, indeed.

Nations have chosen what they think is best fair enough.

Based on 1 person in 20 people in the 85+ age group being saved from death from any vaccine that is approved now. How many people in the countries that refused it's use for that age group, could of been saved if it was given.

Again how many people would of been lost by taking it ?

Rodney Bathgate · 13-02-2021 02:36PM

Can someone please explain what any of this has to do with the ‘Tories’?

Or is it just EU bootlicker, anti-British gobsh1tes mouthing off?

13-02-2021 03:23PM

Rodney Bathgate wrote: »

Can someone please explain what any of this has to do with the ‘Tories’?

Or is it just EU bootlicker, anti-British gobsh1tes mouthing off?

That’s pretty much it.

is_that_so · 13-02-2021 03:50PM

AZ planning to test vaccine on kids this month.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56052673

brickster69 · 13-02-2021 04:25PM

is_that_so wrote: »

AZ planning to test vaccine on kids this month.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56052673

Will be doing cats and dogs next, may as well go the full monty

IRISHSPORTSGUY · 13-02-2021 05:07PM

https://www.politico.eu/article/after-failing-to-deliver-astrazeneca-rethinks-eu-coronavirus-vaccine-supply-chain/

The EU has at all stages been a step behind the U.K., not only on vaccine deliveries but also on the earlier steps to secure contracts and approvals.

The person with knowledge of the U.K.’s contract with AstraZeneca said the U.K. was ultimately more successful in ramping up manufacturing because the British government was more actively involved in the details of the manufacturing process. The European Commission, by comparison, was a “passive customer.”

Health Commissioner Stella Kyriakides has claimed it wasn’t a queue at the butcher shop, "but the EU has treated it like that, like they can just place an order for the sausages and they’ll come," the person said. “That’s not what the U.K. has done. They helped the butcher buy a machine, helped it with staff, helped it with farming the pigs, helped it develop the recipe.”

Of the EU’s strategy, they said: “It's incredibly naive: These are the hardest manufacturing challenges the world has ever faced.”

is_that_so · 13-02-2021 06:00PM

IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »

https://www.politico.eu/article/after-failing-to-deliver-astrazeneca-rethinks-eu-coronavirus-vaccine-supply-chain/

That last comment seems to suggest that AZ are halfwits and learnt nothing from their UK experience. All that butcher stuff is money and the EU has a big 24/7 money photocopier!

DaSilva · 13-02-2021 06:14PM

astrofool wrote: »

I would also guess that they will have to be happy waiting a long time while everyone gets vaccinated ahead of them, while they wait on the surplus to appear.

According to you how long a delay should those who are actually at most risk of severe disease getting the most efficacious vaccine be sufficient atonement?

Minimising harm > reciprocity

Danzy · 13-02-2021 07:40PM

is_that_so wrote: »

That last comment seems to suggest that AZ are halfwits and learnt nothing from their UK experience. All that butcher stuff is money and the EU has a big 24/7 money photocopier!

It's hardly going to surprise anyone though.

Every aspect of the EU vaccination program has been a failure.

It's being called out by many ardent EU supporters.

IRISHSPORTSGUY · 13-02-2021 08:11PM

Danzy wrote: »

It's hardly going to surprise anyone though.

Every aspect of the EU vaccination program has been a failure.

It's being called out by many ardent EU supporters.

Europe might end up opening up everything around a similar time to the UK because as the year goes on the warmer weather = less infections.
The likes of Spain may gamble (because of the €€€€€ from summer tourism) that they'll have the majority of population completed by the time autumn comes around.

The lack of drilled down planning for the vaccination programme has been an embarrassment for the EU though. I'm pro-EU, I criticise because I want them and Ireland to do well.

Pete_Cavan · 13-02-2021 08:35PM

IRISHSPORTSGUY wrote: »

https://www.politico.eu/article/after-failing-to-deliver-astrazeneca-rethinks-eu-coronavirus-vaccine-supply-chain/

If I sign up with a company to supply coffee beans, they can't turn around later and say "we would have fulfilled your order on time if you had come out to help picking the beans". If I employ someone to build a house for me, they can't decide after the fact that the completion date was based on me carrying blocks for them.

AZ are still bound by the terms of their contract, it is up to them to deliver on them. They also only informed the EU that they would only deliver 30% of the first delivery when already in the delivery period (i.e. Q1 2021). Maybe the EU could have done something to help but AZ waited until the last minute to info them of the problems.

13-02-2021 08:39PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

If I sign up with a company to supply coffee beans, they can't turn around later and say "we would have fulfilled your order on time if you had come out to help picking the beans". If I employ someone to build a house for me, they can't decide after the fact that the completion date was based on me carrying blocks for them.

AZ are still bound by the terms of their contract, it is up to them to deliver on them. They also only informed the EU that they would only deliver 30% of the first delivery when already in the delivery period (i.e. Q1 2021). Maybe the EU could have done something to help but AZ waited until the last minute to info them of the problems.

It isn’t a company selling coffee beans though. That is precisely the mistake the Eu made.

This is a new vaccine, being brought to market at unprecedented speed with an unprecedented level of demand. Sitting back and shouting “we have a contract” isn’t a pragmatic response. They should have been invested in the process, not just standing at the sidelines waving around wads of cash.

robinph · 13-02-2021 09:20PM

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

If I sign up with a company to supply coffee beans, they can't turn around later and say "we would have fulfilled your order on time if you had come out to help picking the beans". If I employ someone to build a house for me, they can't decide after the fact that the completion date was based on me carrying blocks for them.

AZ are still bound by the terms of their contract, it is up to them to deliver on them. They also only informed the EU that they would only deliver 30% of the first delivery when already in the delivery period (i.e. Q1 2021). Maybe the EU could have done something to help but AZ waited until the last minute to info them of the problems.

A better comparison might be the orders being placed for delivery rockets to the ISS with multiple companies that at the time hadn't even launched anything into orbit yet. Then the like of NASA, ESA, and other space agencies etc get involved with directing how Space X and Blue whatever the Amazon one is, to do what is needed to get the rockets launched. Like providing launch pads or manufacturing facilities, or the astronauts to fly on the thing. Not just sitting back and complaining when the launch is delayed for some reason.

Pete_Cavan · 13-02-2021 09:21PM

Aegir wrote: »

It isn’t a company selling coffee beans though. That is precisely the mistake the Eu made.

This is a new vaccine, being brought to market at unprecedented speed with an unprecedented level of demand. Sitting back and shouting “we have a contract” isn’t a pragmatic response. They should have been invested in the process, not just standing at the sidelines waving around wads of cash.

Every private company on the planet wants governments (or collections thereof) waving wads of cash at them but not getting directly involved as they complicate things and introduce more bureaucracy. No doubt if the EU had invested more than just enormous sums of money in the process, there would be howls from the same people about them getting involved and still blaming any issues on them.

AZ got more than €300m of EU money upfront. If they wanted more help from the EU they should have looked for it under the contract or after that. Instead they told the EU in late Nov/early Dec that they would only deliver 80% of what they signed up to deliver in the next quarter. Then, in the delivery quarter, they notified that it would only be 30% of the contracted amount. Again, you can't sign up to something and then decide after the fact that you wanted more from the other party.

Pete_Cavan · 13-02-2021 09:28PM

robinph wrote: »

A better comparison might be the orders being placed for delivery rockets to the ISS with multiple companies that at the time hadn't even launched anything into orbit yet. Then the like of NASA, ESA, and other space agencies etc get involved with directing how Space X and Blue whatever the Amazon one is, to do what is needed to get the rockets launched. Like providing launch pads or manufacturing facilities, or the astronauts to fly on the thing. Not just sitting back and complaining when the launch is delayed for some reason.

No that is nonsense. If someone signs up to a contract, they are bound by the terms of the contract. They can't decide later to introduce new terms on the other party which they never sought before. If AZ wanted something over and above the >€300m upfront payment which they received, they had to ask for it. Instead they said at the last minute that they would be deliver less than a third of what they were contracted to deliver.

robinph · 13-02-2021 09:28PM

I'm sure it will have said somewhere in all the contracts signed with all vaccine companies signed in the middle of last year that despite paying up 300 million beans, you may yet get nothing in return. Every vaccine being ordered back then was a gamble that those placing the orders had to be prepared to lose everything on, none were guaranteed to pass the criteria to actually be of any use.

Educated guesses could be made as to if some would or wouldn't work, but there were no guarantees of anything. The UK threw money and support at the problem, the EU hummed and harrrd a bit and threw a tiny bit more money at the problem despite needing 5 times as many doses or so.

Godot. · 13-02-2021 09:30PM

Jaysus, the desperation from some to absolve the EU of any blame.

Danzy · 13-02-2021 09:32PM

If any part of the EU vaccination program was a success, no matter how moderate, the idea that it was all down to Astra Zeneca would be worth considering.

Maybe the EU is correct and Astra Zeneca are just hiding their fault by just saying it's the latest F up in a long line by the EU in this crisis.

Ultimately at the end of it, the fact remains that in the greatest social and economic crisis in a very long time that the EU is Johnny last and that will have massive costs to us all.

Danzy · 13-02-2021 09:38PM

Godot. wrote: »

Jaysus, the desperation from some to absolve the EU of any blame.

Hyper Jingoism on display.

robinph · 13-02-2021 09:41PM

Difficult to find the numbers, but more than half of the 15 million vaccines stuck in people's arms in the UK so far are Pfizer ones, think the same for the US. Why didn't the EU get their hands on some of those doses too?

brickster69 · 13-02-2021 09:53PM

Did post an article on the production process last night for AZ which i though gave good detail on how it is made from start to finish. Also the time frame from A to Z was a bit of an eye opener.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2021-02-12/covid-19-vaccine-oxford-astrazeneca-adenovirus-csl-manufacturing/13140104

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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