Home heating automation

deezell · 09-02-2021 12:00PM

ablelocks wrote: »

anyone? (not tied into Tado either in case anyone would recommend any other options... had spotted their offer on refurbed kits but missed out on that, could wait for it to come up again)

Yes it would. Do you have a stat for each CH zone? You would just diy replace these with Tado wired, set the three CH zones on the Sauter to always on, and continue to use the sauter for HW timing. If you only have one stat, that would be odd, and would require a different approach.

ablelocks · 09-02-2021 01:32PM

deezell wrote: »

Yes it would. Do you have a stat for each CH zone? You would just diy replace these with Tado wired, set the three CH zones on the Sauter to always on, and continue to use the sauter for HW timing. If you only have one stat, that would be odd, and would require a different approach.

i have 3 stats, so that's the answer i was hoping for! thanks a mill Deezell

chris_ie · 09-02-2021 01:43PM

deezell wrote: »

That sounds right, if the cylinder return goes directly into the back boiler, cylnder flow is by gravity, with no impediment on it's path. The pump comes on for CH and and pumps CH return into the back boiler, joining cylinder return. This tee fitting should be a venturi type, so that the pumped cold return from the rads would 'draw' the cooled return from the cylinder coil, rather than pushing it back up cylinder coil, which would cool it and the HW to a point. This veturi tee may also be fitted where the hot flow out from the back boiler spilits to the cylinder and the radiators.
Just a couple, if the rads TRVs are already open on schedule if they are smart TRVs, they will also benefit.

You can install smartTRVs to open on a schedule, but without association to a stat to call the boiler.
Tado just times HW events, it doesnt have a HW stat in its armoury, you would just use a mechanical cylinder stat. It can only monitor HW temp on direct HW combi boilers which have OpenTherm digital control.

Yes, around 60-70°

As always, thanks deezell. If the back boiler thermostat fires the pump, and the oil runs at the same time, does that not mean the water being pumped would be hot? Its the mixing of back boiler heated CH and oil heated CH water that I can't get. I obviously missing something simple

The temperature knob on our oil boiler just shows a ramp symbol, no temperatures. Must check the manual to see what the start/end of the ramp represents.

deezell · 09-02-2021 02:17PM

chris_ie wrote: »

As always, thanks deezell. If the back boiler thermostat fires the pump, and the oil runs at the same time, does that not mean the water being pumped would be hot? Its the mixing of back boiler heated CH and oil heated CH water that I can't get. I obviously missing something simple

The temperature knob on our oil boiler just shows a ramp symbol, no temperatures. Must check the manual to see what the start/end of the ramp represents.

Blending two sources is not always properly done on domestic systems, simple series or parallel plumbimg was common enough, but far from ideal. There are a number of approaches, from simple tee joints on the flow/return coupled to non return valves, motorised valve selection, blending manifolds such as NRG Awareness products (I installed their manifold when upgrading the crudely fitted system originally installed in our house), Systemlink spiral blending manifolds, or more sophisticated chamber/pump devices such as the Systemlink Heat Genie.
What you're trying to achive is preventing heated flow from one boiler being pumped uncooled into the other boiler, though either its flow or return pipes. Poor installations wil invariably gurgle and bang, with thermal shock and steam hammer effects.
One other simple addition is a relay to cut the oil boiler SL when the pipe stat cuts in. Using the NC contact on tjr pipe stat can achieve this effect. Smart stats will operate and TRVs will continue to operate, but the oil boiler will stay off until the solid fuel source cools sufficiently to turn off the pipe stat.

chris_ie · 10-02-2021 10:57AM

deezell wrote: »

Blending two sources is not always properly done on domestic systems, simple series or parallel plumbimg was common enough, but far from ideal. There are a number of approaches, from simple tee joints on the flow/return coupled to non return valves, motorised valve selection, blending manifolds such as NRG Awareness products (I installed their manifold when upgrading the crudely fitted system originally installed in our house), Systemlink spiral blending manifolds, or more sophisticated chamber/pump devices such as the Systemlink Heat Genie.
What you're trying to achive is preventing heated flow from one boiler being pumped uncooled into the other boiler, though either its flow or return pipes. Poor installations wil invariably gurgle and bang, with thermal shock and steam hammer effects.
One other simple addition is a relay to cut the oil boiler SL when the pipe stat cuts in. Using the NC contact on tjr pipe stat can achieve this effect. Smart stats will operate and TRVs will continue to operate, but the oil boiler will stay off until the solid fuel source cools sufficiently to turn off the pipe stat.

Ah, wonder what way they have it done here.

The boiler dial we have doesn't show numbers just whats in the image below. Tried checking manual, nothing about the temperature range there. Wondering is it 60-90? (For ages I thought it said LIMIT, only copped on few days ago it said IMIT)

DrPhilG · 11-02-2021 05:09PM

Just to confirm something, as I expand my smart TRV empire...

1 - If I have room stats or TRVs in any particular room, then if any of them call for heat then all rads within the same zone will heat unless they have a smart TRV?

For example there are 5 rooms in zone 1. I have a room stat in room A, and TRVs on the rads in room B.

So if room A is colder than the setting, it calls for heat and all 5 rooms in the zone get heat. But if room B has TRVs set, they still have their own control and setting so can close down if they're warm enough.

But if room B needs heat it calls for heat and all of the zone heats, in this instance room A will still heat as it only has a room stat but no smart valves to control the shutdown?

2 - If a room has smart TRVs and a room stat, then the room stat is the master and the TRVs temps are ignored, but they will open/close based on the room stat reading?

Apologies if that's obvious, I just want to get it clear in my head!

I've got 19 rads. Planning to leave the master bedroom on a room stat since it's always the coldest room in that zone. So it doesn't ever need to shut down separately from the others.

All other rads will have smart TRVs, and the living room will have a room stat as well as TRVs, as they don't get a very good reading behind the sofas.

deezell · 11-02-2021 05:50PM

1. Correct

2. Correct

Go to the top of the class.

irishgrover · 11-02-2021 05:51PM

Hi all, not sure if this is the right question for this, but here goes, apologies if not...
I have a oil burning range which supports rads in 2 zones, upstairs and downstairs.
I've successfully replaced the various switches with a sonoff 4ch switch. So now hearing csn be automated, scheduled etc etc. All good.
Next I got a couple of temp/humidity sensors (WiFi, battery operated, with display screen).
Here's the problem. Turns out they only work with the smart life app whereas sonoff use ewelink. So my problem is that I cannot trigger sonoff behaviour based on data coming from the smart life app/sensors.

So ultimately the question is, does anyone know of any stand alone battery wifi temp sensors, preferably with display, that work within the ewelink sonoff app.?

deezell · 11-02-2021 06:07PM

chris_ie wrote: »

Ah, wonder what way they have it done here.

The boiler dial we have doesn't show numbers just whats in the image below. Tried checking manual, nothing about the temperature range there. Wondering is it 60-90? (For ages I thought it said LIMIT, only copped on few days ago it said IMIT)

As you've probably already seen on Google, there are versions of this stat with 60 - 90 on the decal instead of the ramp icon. I've one of these dual stats in my junk from an ageing '80s boiler I scrapped for a new condensing boiler. I'd had the boiler service tested for co, co2 and nozzle pressure. After the service your man told me the boiler measured about 62% efficiency, so I was spending €500 a year to heat the flue. Out it went asap.

chris_ie · 11-02-2021 06:17PM

deezell wrote: »

As you've probably already seen on Google, there are versions of this stat with 60 - 90 on the decal instead of the ramp icon. I've one of these dual stats in my junk from an ageing '80s boiler I scrapped for a new condensing boiler. I'd had the boiler service tested for co, co2 and nozzle pressure. After the service your man told me the boiler measured about 62% efficiency, so I was spending €500 a year to heat the flue. Out it went asap.

:eek: Jees. We had this boiler installed back in 2015 I think, the other one was all rusted as we has water getting into the small shed/hut that the boiler is in. :mad:

deezell · 11-02-2021 06:18PM

irishgrover wrote: »

Hi all, not sure if this is the right question for this, but here goes, apologies if not...
I have a oil burning range which supports rads in 2 zones, upstairs and downstairs.
I've successfully replaced the various switches with a sonoff 4ch switch. So now hearing csn be automated, scheduled etc etc. All good.
Next I got a couple of temp/humidity sensors (WiFi, battery operated, with display screen).
Here's the problem. Turns out they only work with the smart life app whereas sonoff use ewelink. So my problem is that I cannot trigger sonoff behaviour based on data coming from the smart life app/sensors.

So ultimately the question is, does anyone know of any stand alone battery wifi temp sensors, preferably with display, that work within the ewelink sonoff app.?

Integrate them with IFTTT, but using Smartlife clone app,
https://www.reddit.com/r/smartlife/comments/hkevl3/does_the_smartlife_ifttt_service_still_work/,

or, buy these ewelink sensors.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001908629677.html

deezell · 11-02-2021 06:31PM

chris_ie wrote: »

:eek: Jees. We had this boiler installed back in 2015 I think, the other one was all rusted as we has water getting into the small shed/hut that the boiler is in. :mad:

I'm sure it's more efficient than the behemoth I scrapped, its just when I see a piece of old school boiler tech like that dual stat, , I'm wondering about the modernity of the boiler its fitted in. A new boiler in 2015 might still be based on an old design, but if its an outhouse boiler, it might not be very sophisticated compared to the newer external or internal models. You should research its make and model, by 2015 there were plenty of high efficiency condensor boilers around.

DrPhilG · 11-02-2021 07:24PM

deezell wrote: »

1. Correct

2. Correct

Go to the top of the class.

Lol, I must have been listening after all.

championc · 11-02-2021 08:46PM

DrPhilG wrote: »

I've got 19 rads. Planning to leave the master bedroom on a room stat since it's always the coldest room in that zone. So it doesn't ever need to shut down separately from the others.

With that many rads, it's quite possible that a lack of balancing is leading to that cold main bedroom.

If you run the heating with all Rads calling for heat, and if some heat faster than others or if some after a while are hopping, close down the lockshield valve (opposite end to the TRV) by maybe a quarter turn, or open any on old ones by the same amount.

The idea is that the rads nearest the boiler need to restrict the flow in order for the hot water to reach the rads furthest away

gfaces · 11-02-2021 09:18PM

Hi everyone,

Great thread with alot of usefull advice. I currently have a 4 zone (downstairs + 2 upstairs + hotwater) heating with an r47 programmer and 3 cm2 thermostats.

All works well but would like to control remotely. Have looked at eph ember but would need at a minimum a new programmer (r47 rf) plus gateway plus 3 programmers which would be the bones of 700 euro.

The tado setup looks interesting but am put off by the stealth subscription creep.
Has anyone used these in place off tado?

MOES Smart Thermostat WiFi Temperature Controller Metal Brushed Panel Smart Life/Tuya

(cant post url as new user but search above on for example amazon)

Would they be a direct replacement for the EPH cm2's and then would everything work via
smart life?

deezell · 11-02-2021 10:15PM

Would they be a direct replacement for the EPH cm2's and then would everything work via
smart life?

They need mains power to function. The CM2s are mechanical stats, they just close a contact, so are 2 wire devices, live in, switched live out. No neutral line to operate the MOES. Permanent live in also required, not an issue once you leave the EPH always on for the CH zones.
You can search for a battery operated version, but the problem is, you can't get reasonable battery life from a device operating 802.11 Wi-Fi. That's why all drop in 2 pole or wireless smart stats use a lo power wireless connection (Zigbee, Z-Wave, 6LoWPAN), to a hub. Tado or Netatmo wired will do the trick as direct replacements. Hive or Drayton Wiser or Netatmo wireless with receivers to replace the EPH controller also.
If you can get a mains neutral line into the current stat locations, you can use the MOES.

Sub is optional on Tado BTW, its for geofence feature, and open window feature afaik.

lausp · 11-02-2021 11:16PM

Hello all,

Some great info in this thread.

I was hoping someone could advise on my situation.

I have a vokera gas boiler, and my house was wired for home automation in 2005.

The automation was never set up and the wiring just left unterminated in a box in the utility.

I've got a sonoff relay running for the last few years for some of the lights in the house which works very well, however I'd love to get the boiler set up too.

Here are a couple of pictures of what I have.

It's a 2 core cable with both cores brown wires and one live. This, as far as I can tell, is effectively the same concept as the lighting setup where I have live feeding into common, and the switched live in normally open.

Can anyone tell me if that is what is going on here with the boiler cable? If so, if I set up a relay/switch with the correct amperage rating, will the boiler stay on while the relay/switch is switched on?

Any advice appreciated.

gfaces · 11-02-2021 11:19PM

deezell wrote: »

They need mains power to function. The CM2s are mechanical stats, they just close a contact, so are 2 wire devices, live in, switched live out. No neutral line to operate the MOES. Permanent live in also required, not an issue once you leave the EPH always on for the CH zones.
You can search for a battery operated version, but the problem is, you can't get reasonable battery life from a device operating 802.11 Wi-Fi. That's why all drop in 2 pole or wireless smart stats use a lo power wireless connection (Zigbee, Z-Wave, 6LoWPAN), to a hub. Tado or Netatmo wired will do the trick as direct replacements. Hive or Drayton Wiser or Netatmo wireless with receivers to replace the EPH controller also.
If you can get a mains neutral line into the current stat locations, you can use the MOES.

Sub is optional on Tado BTW, its for geofence feature, and open window feature afaik.

Yes Deezell you are spot on. I checked the CM2's and they have a single 4 core flex cable running into them. I would upload an image but dont have required posts atm. The flex consists of brown/black/blue and earth. Currently the blue and earth are redundant being taped up.

deezell · 11-02-2021 11:39PM

lausp wrote: »

Hello all,

Some great info in this thread.

I was hoping someone could advise on my situation.

I have a vokera gas boiler, and my house was wired for home automation in 2005.

The automation was never set up and the wiring just left unterminated in a box in the utility.

I've got a sonoff relay running for the last few years for some of the lights in the house which works very well, however I'd love to get the boiler set up too.

Here are a couple of pictures of what I have.

It's a 2 core cable with both cores brown wires and one live. This, as far as I can tell, is effectively the same concept as the lighting setup where I have live feeding into common, and the switched live in normally open.

Can anyone tell me if that is what is going on here with the boiler cable? If so, if I set up a relay/switch with the correct amperage rating, will the boiler stay on while the relay/switch is switched on?

Any advice appreciated.

What currently triggers your boiler for CH, for HW. Timer, thermostat(s)? Have you CH Zones? Model no of Boiler. Images of controller/timer/thermostats etc.TLI at the moment to advise.

Alkers · 12-02-2021 12:31AM

DrPhilG wrote: »

Lol, I must have been listening after all.

I have the Drayton wiser setup also, really the main use I can see for the stat is in rooms with more than one radiator or rooms you want heated most of the time e.g. bathrooms, halls etc.

Each room with a trv effectively becomes a zone in itself.

deezell · 12-02-2021 12:32AM

gfaces wrote: »

Yes Deezell you are spot on. I checked the CM2's and they have a single 4 core flex cable running into them. I would upload an image but dont have required posts atm. The flex consists of brown/black/blue and earth. Currently the blue and earth are redundant being taped up.

I'd say you're in business. The blue may already be connected to neutral. Check for the opposite end of these cables, they should be in a wiring box near the zone valves. If the blues are taped up, they can be wired to neutral. Either brown or black is live from the eph to the stat, just use a phase tester to figure this, the other will be switched live, SL, going back to open the valve when the stat is turned up and its EPH zone is on. You have the permanent live you need by turning the EPH to always on, and the neutral to power up the stat. The SL wire will go to the normally open terminal of the stat, which now becomes both timer and thermostat for that zone.

lausp · 12-02-2021 09:33AM

deezell wrote: »

What currently triggers your boiler for CH, for HW. Timer, thermostat(s)? Have you CH Zones? Model no of Boiler. Images of controller/timer/thermostats etc.TLI at the moment to advise.

Thanks, and apologies. I should have provided more details.

Currently the room stats trigger the boiler only. Hot water heating is passive. I am hoping to resolve that issue with a motorised valve and thermostat on the hot water tank.

It is an underfloor system with 7 zones downstairs and 6 upstairs. Common areas are just open zones.

I have attached pictures of stats, boiler and control unit for underfloor.

The heating is currently controlled via a manual clock timer directly on the boiler. If the timer isn't on, or clock timer not set to on position, the boiler does not fire.

From what I can see, it looks like those 2 brown wires are feeding into a controller to the side of the underfloor system that the stats are feeding into.

deezell · 12-02-2021 10:48AM

A lot of complexity there. Are there individual stats for each zone? How many wall stats in total. Im assuming your entire system is UFH, timing for the entire system is the built in one on the boiler, and it's just this you'd like to automate for the moment. In that case it's possible to connect a volt free set of relay contacts from your Sonoff (com and NO, no mains) into the boiler across two terminals on the boiler which are normally linked, and use this to time and trigger the boiler. I'll take a look for the boiler wiring terminal.

maxamillius · 12-02-2021 10:57AM

Anyone got an oil fired combi boiler? I need to replace my current boiler and am thinking it might be a good idea so I can get rid of the tank in the attic.

DrPhilG · 12-02-2021 01:41PM

championc wrote: »

With that many rads, it's quite possible that a lack of balancing is leading to that cold main bedroom.

The plumber balanced all the rads a few weeks back.

The bedroom has always been the coldest room because it has 2 external walls, 3 windows, and faces south which due to our position in the valley means that it gets constant battering from the wind and rain. With the storm we've had the last few days, and the sub zero temps, its definitely taking a toll.

Just checked the app and the temperature in the room is 14 which is a drop of 5 degrees in 4 hours since the heat went off this morning.

Hallway dropped from 20 to 17 and the living room from 19 to 15.

DrPhilG · 12-02-2021 01:43PM

Also a big thank you to everyone here, especially deezell and championc, and apologies if I've missed others.

Lots of great advice and info.

lausp · 12-02-2021 01:47PM

deezell wrote: »

A lot of complexity there. Are there individual stats for each zone? How many wall stats in total. Im assuming your entire system is UFH, timing for the entire system is the built in one on the boiler, and it's just this you'd like to automate for the moment. In that case it's possible to connect a volt free set of relay contacts from your Sonoff (com and NO, no mains) into the boiler across two terminals on the boiler which are normally linked, and use this to time and trigger the boiler. I'll take a look for the boiler wiring terminal.

Yes entire system is UFH. 6 zones upstairs and 4 stats, 7 zones downstairs with 3 stats.

Exactly as you say the whole system is controlled via the boiler directly with either the timer or just turning it on. A stat needs to call for heat for the boiler to fire.

Really appreciate your help!

deezell · 12-02-2021 02:52PM

lausp wrote: »

Yes entire system is UFH. 6 zones upstairs and 4 stats, 7 zones downstairs with 3 stats.

Exactly as you say the whole system is controlled via the boiler directly with either the timer or just turning it on. A stat needs to call for heat for the boiler to fire.

Really appreciate your help!

Take a look at this manual

https://www.vokera.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/synergy_e_installation_and_servicing_instructions.pdf
The control signal for the boiler from the UHF system is applied across terminals 3 and 4 of the Appliance Terminal strip, most clearly illustrated on Fig 41, page 38. This is a volt free connection, like coming from the Allen Bradley relay. If you want to have remote timing of the system, a convenient way to insert one of your home automation relays in line with the boiler call to these terminals, or on the supply voltage of the Allen B relay. You can now set the boiler timer to always on, the stats through the UFH controller will fire the boiler only when the circuit to the boiler control terminals 3 and 4 is completed by a COM to NO relay on your home automation block. I'm assumimg that live is not permanently wired to the Sonoff Com termimals.
This will allow you to remotely set On Off schedules for your heating in its entirety. If you require temperature and timed zone control, you will require a wired smart stat for as many of the zones you want to remotely control. Afaik, Tado wired is suitable for UFH control, given the different resonse characteristics of this type of heating. Have a go at getting that spare Sonoff relay into the citrcuit, mains free

lausp · 12-02-2021 05:36PM

deezell wrote: »

Take a look at this manual

https://www.vokera.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/synergy_e_installation_and_servicing_instructions.pdf
The control signal for the boiler from the UHF system is applied across terminals 3 and 4 of the Appliance Terminal strip, most clearly illustrated on Fig 41, page 38. This is a volt free connection, like coming from the Allen Bradley relay. If you want to have remote timing of the system, a convenient way to insert one of your home automation relays in line with the boiler call to these terminals, or on the supply voltage of the Allen B relay. You can now set the boiler timer to always on, the stats through the UFH controller will fire the boiler only when the circuit to the boiler control terminals 3 and 4 is completed by a COM to NO relay on your home automation block. I'm assumimg that live is not permanently wired to the Sonoff Com termimals.
This will allow you to remotely set On Off schedules for your heating in its entirety. If you require temperature and timed zone control, you will require a wired smart stat for as many of the zones you want to remotely control. Afaik, Tado wired is suitable for UFH control, given the different resonse characteristics of this type of heating. Have a go at getting that spare Sonoff relay into the citrcuit, mains free

So unless I am mistaken, reading what you are saying, using the sonoff to just switch the live in the home control box, that will switch the Allen relay to fire the boiler?

That sounds like exactly what I was hoping for

My only reservation is that the amperage would exceed the sonoff max of 10a per gang 15a max.

Edit: actually, just thinking further on this, wouldn't I need to disrupt the current supply to the Allen relay so that the only power source to that relay is from the sonoff?

deezell · 12-02-2021 11:34PM

lausp wrote: »

So unless I am mistaken, reading what you are saying, using the sonoff to just switch the live in the home control box, that will switch the Allen relay to fire the boiler?

That sounds like exactly what I was hoping for

My only reservation is that the amperage would exceed the sonoff max of 10a per gang 15a max.

Edit: actually, just thinking further on this, wouldn't I need to disrupt the current supply to the Allen relay so that the only power source to that relay is from the sonoff?

The Allen relay seems to actuated by a 24v volt supply, from the UFH controller? Your sonoff relays gangs can be wired independent of the mains, I think they are volt free. Simply wiring one of these in series with either the relay actuating voltage, or the connection to the boiler would do.

Home heating automation

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