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Galway traffic

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    #3332
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Civil engineering is a very wide field and the right Civil Engineers with the right experience and interests can certainly achieve very different results that what we've been getting. A mix of different professions is ideal but don't dismiss the civil engineering input.
    Very true, there is no doubt there will be Civil Engineers/Roads Engineers - the trouble to date that it has been far to top heavy with them. The outcomes have been poor. To give the Engineers a bit of slack, the planners in Galway City Council have had far more negative effect on the active travel area in the last 30 years.


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    #3333
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Sure, dark alleys do not good infrastructure make and lead to antisocial behaviour

    Lots of ways around that though

    Let the light shine in DaCor!!!
    Am talking about 101 permeability basics here. Places like this in the NEWISH Suburbs for starters between Clybaun Road and Bothar Stiofain in Clybaun/Rahoon areas
    https://goo.gl/maps/j5dz33XbaGjKiQG19
    Two concrete walls are visible here. One in the distance as well
    Connect up these 3 estates for walking and cycling.
    Cartur Mór -> Slí na Druathan -> Caiseal Úr

    One does not see this type of estate layouts in Salthill or Shantalla for example. All built before 1990


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    #3334
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,805 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    what_traffic wrote: »
    Let the light shine in DaCor!!!
    Am talking about 101 permeability basics here. Places like this in the NEWISH Suburbs for starters between Clybaun Road and Bothar Stiofain in Clybaun/Rahoon areas
    https://goo.gl/maps/j5dz33XbaGjKiQG19
    Two concrete walls are visible here. One in the distance as well
    Connect up these 3 estates for walking and cycling.
    Cartur Mór -> Slí na Druathan -> Caiseal Úr

    One does not see this type of estate layouts in Salthill or Shantalla for example. All built before 1990

    Any WHY do you think these walls are there? Do the residents actually want them removed?


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    #3335
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    We need a lot of conversation about this.

    Many, many people want permeability restrictions, for some very solid reasons.

    Unfortunately we need a change in policing approach to work with increased permeability in the suburbs. There are some nice permeable routes through estates near me and if there's ever any anti social behaviour and the Gardai turn up in their cars they just run/bike through the gaps and the Gardai head off on a big detour. I've never seen a Garda leave their car or follow on foot or bike around here.

    We've also had groups come running through and 10 mins later a Garda car comes around - "where did they go?".

    I'd love to see more permeability but it's a tricky one and people are terrible.


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    #3336
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    what_traffic wrote: »
    Let the light shine in DaCor!!!
    Am talking about 101 permeability basics here. Places like this in the NEWISH Suburbs for starters between Clybaun Road and Bothar Stiofain in Clybaun/Rahoon areas
    https://goo.gl/maps/j5dz33XbaGjKiQG19
    Two concrete walls are visible here. One in the distance as well
    Connect up these 3 estates for walking and cycling.
    Cartur Mór -> Slí na Druathan -> Caiseal Úr

    One does not see this type of estate layouts in Salthill or Shantalla for example. All built before 1990

    Do the residents actually want these GREY Concrete walls blocking them in is the question? Would be nice to be able to walk to friends and family's house in the neighbouring estate without having to walk down Clybaun Road, Western Distributor Road and Bothar Stiofain. Multiple distance of the "crow can fly" Kids can walk, cycle and scoot to School without having to go on the "car busy" Western Distributor Road.
    This is Developer based planning unfortunately, vast majority of these walls - no residents had any say when those estates were been built. City Planners did.....
    Its an Irish version of the US suburbia car model that was introduced here in the 90s. This area, all the estates were built as greenfield sites. Just dont get this in Salthill/Shantalla/Newcastle/Mervue. The good old days in my honest opinion


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    #3337
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 5,121 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Are there any particular planning requirements or bylaws about it?


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    #3338
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    Unfortunately we need a change in policing approach to work with increased permeability in the suburbs. There are some nice permeable routes through estates near me and if there's ever any anti social behaviour and the Gardai turn up in their cars they just run/bike through the gaps and the Gardai head off on a big detour. I've never seen a Garda leave their car or follow on foot or bike around here.

    We've also had groups come running through and 10 mins later a Garda car comes around - "where did they go?".

    I'd love to see more permeability but it's a tricky one and people are terrible.

    If there is an issue with policing you deal with the policing issue. You can't base permeability design on criminal elements.

    You base it on the needs of people to get from a to b and everywhere in between while avoiding the use of cars.

    There is good permeability design and bad design. Instead of starting from the mindset of a criminal, try instead to use the mindsets of a wheelchair user, a mother pushing a pram, a young child cycling to school or someone with a cargo bike cycling to Dunnes to do the weekly shop.

    Design for their accessibility needs and then look at how to make it as safe as possible.

    On a side note, I'm delighted to see a push from local communities to get the City Council to remove kissing gates wherever they've been installed. They do nothing except piss off regular users of a route and deny access to the most vulnerable in society


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    #3339
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Deleted User wrote: »
    There are some nice permeable routes through estates near me and if there's ever any anti social behavior and the Gardai turn up in their cars they just run/bike through the gaps and the Gardai head off on a big detour. I've never seen a Garda leave their car or follow on foot or bike around here.
    Ditto.
    For every negative story though - there is always 100s of positive story's for permeability. Negatives make the headlines.
    At my local residents association meeting were an anti-social topic that was been discussed around littering at a walkway access point. Local teenagers in the area acting the maggot, just once in a blue moon, but that's always outweighed by the ability of 100's of people in the estates to be able to walk to the local shop or visit friends in the neighboring estate without having to walk on main road. Mitigation can be done, better street lighting etc That was the consensus of the local residents association meeting.
    To be honest the big anti social behavior topic at these meetings is car speeding within the estate. Its just a constant topic year on year.


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    #3340
    ratracer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭ratracer


    They had one job.......

    Where’s the face palm emoji....


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    #3341
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    ratracer wrote: »
    They had one job.......

    Where’s the face palm emoji....

    Temp - they added the upper line to the "T" shortly after this photo


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    #3342
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Here's one good example of poor permeability caused by a single wall

    542711.jpg

    It almost doubles the distance for pedestrians & cyclists

    This is a single layer block wall, not a closed alley. There's no good reason to not allow for permeability from Glen Rua into Gleann Na Ri. I lived for many years in Glen Rua and the amount of GMIT students living in Gleann Na Ri that hopped that wall on a regular basis would indicate that its a much desired route


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    #3343
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Here's one good example of poor permeability caused by a single wall

    This is a single layer block wall, not a closed alley. There's no good reason to not allow for permeability from Glen Rua into Gleann Na Ri. I lived for many years in Glen Rua and the amount of GMIT students living in Gleann Na Ri that hopped that wall on a regular basis would indicate that its a much desired route

    Good example - and shows that the young and fit adults can bypass these obstacles (probably the one group that we would targeted and placed in certain grouping by some) but those less abled are disadvantaged and end up with large circuitous route. The Older sections of Renmore itself (All the area of Renmore West of Ballyloughane Rd) show that the old ways are a better model to follow.


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    #3344
    sasal
    Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭sasal


    A gap in that wall to allow pedestrians and bikes would be so great for children heading to Renmore for school. Walking along the Dublin Road is horrible.


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    #3345
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,805 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Here's one good example of poor permeability caused by a single wall

    ....

    It almost doubles the distance for pedestrians & cyclists

    This is a single layer block wall, not a closed alley. There's no good reason to not allow for permeability from Glen Rua into Gleann Na Ri. I lived for many years in Glen Rua and the amount of GMIT students living in Gleann Na Ri that hopped that wall on a regular basis would indicate that its a much desired route

    Personally - I totally agree.

    But I know that my way of thinking is very different from most estate dwellers. Many buy in cul-de-sacs precisely because there is no through-route. They do not want the neighbourhood children walking past in the daytime, and teens congregating at night. They don't see a longer walk to the shops as a problem.

    Bullying through the changes which bicycle-evangelists dream about is not likely to win long term: residents will simply re-build walls unless there is neighbourhood agreement for them to be removed.


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    #3346
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    sasal wrote: »
    A gap in that wall to allow pedestrians and bikes would be so great for children heading to Renmore for school. Walking along the Dublin Road is horrible.

    Very true - not pleasant at all. Its a busy car and bus traffic corridor for kids to be inhaling all those exhaust fumes. But bully me for suggesting they should have a more pleasant walk and cycle to school. Suck it up kids


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    #3347
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    Many buy in cul-de-sacs precisely because there is no through-route.

    Sorry but unless you have some actual data to back that up I'm going to call it a load of codswallop as to that being a factor in purchasing a house. There's plenty of hard data out there on these factors, and as far as I can recall that doesn't even show up in the top 20, but I'm ok with being proven wrong.
    They don't see a longer walk to the shops as a problem.

    For them. Personally I don't pay too much heed to NIMBYISM. Real concerns, sure, I'll listen to those.
    Bullying through the changes which bicycle-evangelists dream about is not likely to win long term: residents will simply re-build walls unless there is neighbourhood agreement for them to be removed.

    First who said anything about bullying? That you view change that can improve the lives of many people in the city for very little cost as bullying is very strange.

    Second, why do you always bring any change in Galway City back to your personal hatred of cyclists? Its actually bizarre how you cannot see beyond this.

    Third, unauthorized works result in court cases, as well all residents associations know


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    #3348
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,805 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Sorry but unless you have some actual data to back that up I'm going to call it a load of codswallop as to that being a factor in purchasing a house. There's plenty of hard data out there on these factors, and as far as I can recall that doesn't even show up in the top 20, but I'm ok with being proven wrong.

    ....

    Third, unauthorized works result in court cases, as well all residents associations know

    I don't have statistics. But I've read a good many posts like the following, and had similar conversations. People who like permeability tend to buy in permeable areas. People who don't tend to buy in cul-de-sacs. Both groups value their preference, and don't want outsiders coming along and changing it.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110594625

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=98368711

    https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/cul-de-sac-rights.212144/

    This article - which shows residents of a particular estate clearly didn't want open access from a school to their estate (they're ok with in during school, but wanted it closed nights and weekends):
    https://connachttribune.ie/new-all-irish-secondary-school-could-be-open-in-two-years/



    Also noting that features to limit movement between estates are part of the initial planning permission in many cases. So it 's not just a matter of knocking walls - variations will need to be applied for. And it's not a given that everyone will agree.


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    #3349
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    I don't have statistics.

    Thanks
    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    it 's not just a matter of knocking walls - variations will need to be applied for.

    Thats normal
    And it's not a given that everyone will agree.

    Disagreement with a change in an area is not a reason for that change to not be made.

    You gave one example, access to a school through a housing estate. Its a logical request that the access only be open during school hours. This is when permeability is required and there is nothing else but the school through that access point. Makes complete sense

    The rest of your links were related to people not wanting to hearing children, sorry, but that's not going to hold any water in relation to permeability. Children, adults, disabled, elderly, walkers, runners, cyclists etc should not be blocked from getting from A to B because someone doesn't like the sound of their voices.

    Like I said before, real concerns like the school example, sure, bring them on, they absolutely should be discussed and solutions identified that work for all involved. However, the nimby stuff........


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    #3350
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You gave one example, access to a school through a housing estate. Its a logical request that the access only be open during school hours. This is when permeability is required and there is nothing else but the school through that access point. Makes complete sense

    That is the crux of problem here at this location alright, the School is not the problem per se - but the fact there has been no coordinated Development in the vicinity of the School area. One of National Schools has the exact same issue in KnocknaCarra. Council allowed ribbon Development took place on WDR. All recent 1990/2000's developments.
    In contrast the vast majority of the Schools in Salthill are surrounding by housing and have decent permeability. The houses in these areas you will be lucky to purchase for anything less that €500k and some of those need a good bit of work at that price.


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    #3351
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    This article - which shows residents of a particular estate clearly didn't want open access from a school to their estate (they're ok with in during school, but wanted it closed nights and weekends):
    https://connachttribune.ie/new-all-irish-secondary-school-could-be-open-in-two-years/
    This article was Published 7 years ago on September 21, 2013

    What is the situation on the ground at this location now that the School has been built many years? Have you heard any feedback from the residents association of said estate?


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    #3352
    xckjoo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭xckjoo


    Mrs OBumble wrote: »
    I don't have statistics. But I've read a good many posts like the following, and had similar conversations. People who like permeability tend to buy in permeable areas. People who don't tend to buy in cul-de-sacs. Both groups value their preference, and don't want outsiders coming along and changing it.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=110594625

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=98368711

    https://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/cul-de-sac-rights.212144/


    Those three links have very little discussion of what you're describing. Their main concern seems to be about car traffic and just teenagers in general.

    The first is cul de sac with green area vs main road. Someone mentions the possibility of teens hanging out in the green area. No mention of throughways/permeability.
    Link 2 is green vs cul de sac. 1 mention of a worry of teenagers passing on the green. 1 worry about the cul de sac attracting kids.

    Link 3 is a concern about an estate being built at the end of a cul de sac. Can't really compare that to a throughway for people to walk between existing estates. I'm sure they'd have been equally as concerned with any major development being built at the end of their street.

    So it seems to be car traffic, loitering and major developments that people are most concerned about. They aren't really comparable to walking permeability IMO


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    #3353
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    2021 funding of €240 million announced for active travel projects. Full breakdown of all councils allocation at this link

    Galway City Council to get €11.8 mil. Rural allocation to follow in a few weeks.

    The 11.8 mil breaks down to the following projects

    543029.jpg

    543030.jpg

    There's a lot to digest there but some things of note are

    Bus, cycling & walking infrastructure
    Tuam Road Bus Corridor Project
    Galway Cross City Link
    Dublin Road Transport Corridor
    Bus Priority within Urban Traffic Management Controls
    Western Distributor Road Multi-Modal Corridor

    New walking/cycling infrastructure
    Salmon Weir Pedestrian & Cycle Bridge
    On-Street Cycle Parking
    Permeability Projects - Millars Lane
    Greenway - Moycullen to City Centre
    Greenway - City Centre to Barna
    Clifden Pedestrian and Cycle Bridge

    In relation to the Galway to Barna greenway and the demand for safe cycling infrastructure to and through Salthill, of particular note is the 10k provided for a parking survey in Salthill. Here's hoping its the first in a series of steps by the council to get protected cycling infrastructure implemented in Salthill.

    Also, great to see 1 million for permeability improvements along Millars Lane in Knocknacarra. A great one to start with and should impact a great many people very positively in terms of choosing active travel options over the car.

    Granted the allocations for the various items don't necessarily mean they are due for implementation but these allocations indicate support to take these things through the design, planning, etc phases and its great to see.


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    #3354
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Also, great to see 1 million for permeability improvements along Millars Lane in Knocknacarra.
    Thanks for posting.
    That is the interesting one alright in terms of the budget. It has already been cleared last Autumn 2020 of vegetation and compacted gravel added. Will they add/extend it? Perhaps light it? Millars Lane currently runs from Kingston -> Rahoon -> if it could link onto Kinston/Threadneedle Road and add other linkages along it Cruachan, Gort Greine, Gaelscoil Mhic Amlaigh would make it more attractive


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    #3355
    zell12
    Registered Users Posts: 23,987 ✭✭✭✭zell12


    What's going on in City Hall?
    People asked for these walkways and stuff years ago to prioritise pedestrians, and were dismissed as cranks
    Does it take a global pandemic?


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    #3356
    what_traffic
    Registered Users Posts: 4,913 ✭✭✭what_traffic


    zell12 wrote: »
    What's going on in City Hall?
    People asked for these walkways and stuff years ago to prioritise pedestrians, and were dismissed as cranks
    Does it take a global pandemic?
    You are probably right but I don't believe City Hall have gone fully on board with priority for pedestrians just yet. They are still are doing silly stuff (recent speed limit fiasco case in point).
    Will take another generation for it to truly happen, but tis slowly happening; Those "cranks" ideas ;) can take years to seep in + Community's are asking more and more for proper facilities.


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    #3357
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,680 ✭✭✭serfboard


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Granted the allocations for the various items don't necessarily mean they are due for implementation
    That's the depressing part for an impatient person like me!

    Sounds like a whole lot of money being committed, but then when you look at it in detail, notwithstanding the need for proper planning and design and so on, it's not enough for many visibile changes in 2021.


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    #3358
    serfboard
    Registered Users Posts: 4,680 ✭✭✭serfboard


    zell12 wrote: »
    What's going on in City Hall?
    People asked for these walkways and stuff years ago to prioritise pedestrians, and were dismissed as cranks
    Does it take a global pandemic?
    The Green Party being in government and so the funding is being provided, is one reason. Combined with the fact that the green agenda is being embraced by more parties. And the fact that the magic bullet of the new bridge won't be here for another decade, if ever, and so we might as well get on with alternative transport measures in the meantime.

    The pandemic helps in the fact that there is very little traffic on the roads, so certain things can be trialled without the usual clueless vested interests that are city centre businesses disrupting them. The city centre businesses can't object to cars being taken off the roads when they are not on the roads in the first place!

    And eventually, some of these trials might be so popular, that it will be more difficult to remove them ...


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    #3359
    Bobeagleburger
    Registered Users Posts: 45,324 ✭✭✭✭Bobeagleburger


    Have these Greenways been given the green light? They would be a fantastic addition to Galway. Would bring in a lot of tourism too. No brainer.

    The one in Westport is superb.


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    #3360
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Wow, would be amazing to see those projects happening. And the €11m is just the 2021 allocation.

    What's the chance of the City Council actually moving on these projects this year and using the funding?


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    #3361
    GY A1
    Registered Users Posts: 2,246 ✭✭✭GY A1


    Any funding for the county ?


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