Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII Read OP For Mod Warnings

fin12 · 10-02-2021 09:51PM

If the 5km is not lifted on March 5th, I will really crack up. I think that rule is worse than the pubs shut.

Arghus · 10-02-2021 10:05PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

If your open with yourself Arghus you dodge lots of questions yourself.

Is there any point in me making suggestions to determine the cost effectiveness of closing construction, or the value of behavioural science when implementing long periods of suppression, or accurate tracking of transmission, how many cases in hospital caught it in there, etc etc only for you to suggest I want to let it rip.

It’s the go to argument when your, and many others, perpetual defence of NPHET comes up lacking in common sense.

I don't really dodge questions Fintan, I tend to answer them, if I have the answers. That's just a deflection tactic on your part.

You've said that you wouldn't want to let it rip, I can remember that.

But, having said that, it's hard for some of us to actually know what it is that you truly do believe. It's a complete cop out to say that you couldn't be bothered explaining something in detail because people would suggest all you want to do is let it rip. Why would we?

If you actually have an alternate view, that is. Your longstanding reluctance to actually spell out what you truly think or believe does cause me to wonder all the same.

Your persistent dodging of this question continues. You've once again completely failed to actually answer a direct question about you think we should do. Instead you've deflected, again.

The issue is your constant criticism of just about anything to do with restrictions is never married with constructive suggestions about what could be done instead. Even some of the people who I completely, utterly, disagree with here aren't afraid to stand beside saying what they really believe.

I think you want to have it every way. Freedom to complain incessantly, without ever being willing to commit to an alternative method or approach. And saying that you can't explain your ideas in detail because you think people will accuse you of being a lit it rip merchant? Those are lame excuses.

Penfailed · 10-02-2021 10:05PM

fin12 wrote: »

If the 5km is not lifted on March 5th, I will really crack up. I think that rule is worse than the pubs shut.

Yep. The second part, not the first part. I'll not crack up but I'll be very disappointed.

FintanMcluskey · 10-02-2021 10:06PM

SNNUS wrote: »

Complete Bullsh1t.

It was sarcasm.

Directed at a few posters who argue that construction is not shut at present

Penfailed · 10-02-2021 10:09PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

It was sarcasm.

Directed at a few posters who argue that construction is not shut at present

I work in construction. The fellas employed south of the border are working. I've no idea how the job they are on could be considered essential...but there you go. We're only subcontractors so it's not our call.

The sarcasm was lost on me by the way. [sarcasm]You should stick your sarcasm in square brackets in future[/sarcasm]

Penfailed · 10-02-2021 10:19PM

completedit wrote: »

To the anti lockdown people(Don't like this phrase but it is what it is) . Always know least you had a mind of your own. If nothing else but to keep your sanity and to prove that you have a defiant spirit. You had to ability to have a passionate view on something and didn't just sleepwalk like a compliant zombie into the restrictions. There is many justifiable reasons for lockdowns from one point of view but the amount of people who just passively go along with everything, moaning about some government mishap while eulogising NPHET, these people are the problem. Characterless brainless mongs. Intellectually lazy and lacking any backbone. Just want to fit in and any sort of deviation from the script is frowned upon. As soon as the wind blows and it becomes acceptable to criticise the lockdowns they'll be all about it. The same eejits want more restrictions while flaunting the rules when it suits.

Orwell really had people down to the ground.

This narrative that anti-lockdown people (I don't actually know anyone that wants lockdown which means everyone is anti-lockdown) are free thinkers and have a mind of their own is a big load of shíte. Really. It's been demonstrated that people on this thread that understand the need for restrictions think this freely. They also have a passionate view. Characterless brainless mongs? Away with ye.

FintanMcluskey · 10-02-2021 10:22PM

Arghus wrote: »

I don't really dodge questions Fintan, I tend to answer them, if I have the answers. That's just a deflection tactic on your part.

You've said that you wouldn't want to let it rip, I can remember that.

But, having said that, it's hard for some of us to actually know what it is that you truly do believe. It's a complete cop out to say that you couldn't be bothered explaining something in detail because people would suggest all you want to do is let it rip. Why would we?

If you actually have an alternate view, that is. Your longstanding reluctance to actually spell out what you truly think or believe does cause me to wonder all the same.

Your persistent dodging of this question continues. You've once again completely failed to actually answer a direct question about you think we should do. Instead you've deflected, again.

The issue is your constant criticism of just about anything to do with restrictions is never married with constructive suggestions about what could be done instead. Even some of the people who I completely, utterly, disagree with here aren't afraid to stand beside saying what they really believe.

I think you want to have it every way. Freedom to complain incessantly, without ever being willing to commit to an alternative method or approach. And saying that you can't explain your ideas in detail because you think people will accuse you of being a lit it rip merchant? Those are lame excuses.

You really have a habit of posting essays without saying anything.

But we debated all this weeks ago.

For all the flaws in my posting you have just highlighted, at least they are short and sweet. But I’ll use your approach of walls of text.

Now we debated this weeks ago, I made it clear I wanted to determine what quantification was made to close construction.

You couldn’t answer, because nobody can. And that’s the beginning of my argument.

The following mitigation measures - mask wearing/social distancing/hand washing & prohibiting crowds gathering can be accepted for as long as needed. We didn’t need NPHET’s advice to implement those.

The indefensible argument starts with your incessant support of severe measures for months on end with no quantification of the cost effectiveness of those measures.

Stay home orders and business closures have been implemented on the sole basis of people moving spread Covid.

That’s my criticism. We have no idea if long term stay at home measures are effective. The maths are suggesting they are not.

The Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD) health system policy tracker states that public spaces defined as parks, restaurants, bars, cinemas, non-essential shops and services were closed in Ireland for 120 days from March 12th.

The country with the next highest number of days where public spaces were shut was Finland (74 days) followed by Slovakia (66 days) and Bulgaria and Estonia (both 65 days).

That was lockdown 1 Argus. You continued to support another 2 if not 3 severe lockdowns

Deaths in Ireland among the over-65s were the third highest in Europe relative to population. The rate to early October in Ireland was 2,359 deaths per million. Only Belgium and England/Wales had higher rates of deaths.

Strictest, longest lockdown and 3rd highest death rate.

Would you have liked more lockdowns?

I imagine you would

Graham · 10-02-2021 10:24PM

So what is it you are calling for Fintan?

FintanMcluskey · 10-02-2021 10:25PM

Graham wrote: »

So what is it you are calling for Fintan?

Prof of cost effectiveness of business closures for long periods.

Likely 2-3 times longer than similar measures across the EU since last March

Graham · 10-02-2021 10:27PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Prof of cost effectiveness of business closures for long periods.

OK, so you'd like some sort of survey. Heads up, it's expensive..

Your alternative is.........

Arghus · 10-02-2021 10:28PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

You really have a habit of posting essays without saying anything.

But we debated all this weeks ago.

For all the flaws in my posting you have just highlighted, at least they are short and sweet. But I’ll use your approach of walls of text.

Now we debated this weeks ago, I made it clear I wanted to determine what quantification was made to close construction.

You couldn’t answer, because nobody can. And that’s the beginning of my argument.

The following mitigation measures - mask wearing/social distancing/hand washing & prohibiting crowds gathering can be accepted for as long as needed. We didn’t need NPHET’s advice to implement those.

The indefensible argument starts with your incessant support of severe measures for months on end with no quantification of the cost effectiveness of those measures.

Stay home orders and business closures have been implemented on the sole basis of people moving spread Covid.

That’s my criticism. We have no idea if long term stay at home measures are effective. The maths are suggesting they are not.

That was lockdown 1 Argus. You continued to support another 2 if not 3 severe lockdowns

Strictest, longest lockdown and 3rd highest death rate.

Would you have liked more lockdowns?

I imagine you would

Fantastic Fintan, but you'd still rather kick mud and whataboutery in my direction than actually answer a direct question.

Del Griffith · 10-02-2021 10:29PM

Graham wrote: »

Your alternative to business closures being.........

Leaving them open?

FintanMcluskey · 10-02-2021 10:32PM

Graham wrote: »

OK, so you'd like some sort of survey. Heads up, it's expensive..

Your alternative is.........

Jeasus your giving me ammo now

Are you seriously suggesting money is now an object with you?

Graham · 10-02-2021 10:32PM

Del Griffith wrote: »

Leaving them open?

Thanks.

I wonder will Fintan share his alternative plan.

Graham · 10-02-2021 10:33PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Jeasus your giving me ammo now

Are you seriously suggesting money is now an object with you?

Nope

So, that alternative masterplan of yours...

FintanMcluskey · 10-02-2021 10:34PM

Arghus wrote: »

Fantastic Fintan, but you'd still rather kick mud and whataboutery in my direction than actually answer a direct question.

Can you post the question you need me to answer?

Just a direct question please

Graham · 10-02-2021 10:35PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Can you post the question you need me to answer?

Just a direct question please

What's your alternative plan.

Arghus · 10-02-2021 10:36PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Can you post the question you need me to answer?

Just a direct question please

What do you think the Government's approach should be from this point on.

10-02-2021 10:43PM

Arghus wrote: »

I don't really dodge questions Fintan, I tend to answer them, if I have the answers. That's just a deflection tactic on your part.

You've said that you wouldn't want to let it rip, I can remember that.

But, having said that, it's hard for some of us to actually know what it is that you truly do believe. It's a complete cop out to say that you couldn't be bothered explaining something in detail because people would suggest all you want to do is let it rip. Why would we?

If you actually have an alternate view, that is. Your longstanding reluctance to actually spell out what you truly think or believe does cause me to wonder all the same.

Your persistent dodging of this question continues. You've once again completely failed to actually answer a direct question about you think we should do. Instead you've deflected, again.

The issue is your constant criticism of just about anything to do with restrictions is never married with constructive suggestions about what could be done instead. Even some of the people who I completely, utterly, disagree with here aren't afraid to stand beside saying what they really believe.

I think you want to have it every way. Freedom to complain incessantly, without ever being willing to commit to an alternative method or approach. And saying that you can't explain your ideas in detail because you think people will accuse you of being a lit it rip merchant? Those are lame excuses.

The honest answer is, nobody knows for sure. Especially not any 1 person. But this prolonged lockdown is really not working well at all in my opinion. And there are many areas that should be investigated/explored/discussed.

1) Why is Antigen testing still not happening? Could have been really useful and prevented lots of nursing home and hospital cases/deaths. But Tony still believes there is NOTHING we can do in those settings.

2) Why are we mass testing? We’ve conceded that our tracing is not up to scratch and local restrictions is not our approach. So why bother testing healthy people?

3) Why have we not done everything in our power to significantly increase ICU capacity? We have a magic money tree for everything else.

4) Can we ever actually give restrictions a chance to work so we can gauge what might actually help? Or will we constantly s*it the bed and just full lockdown when cases start rising.

5) Airports - We’ve been letting people fly in from all around the globe since this started as long as they pinky promise they’re isolating. Not good enough when actual citizens are getting fines for walking on a beach.

6) Have we actually considered the bigger picture? The economy, cancer screenings, suicides, children education, mental health. I’m not sure we have.

This is just a few points off the top of my head. I’m sure I could think of many more if I put my mind to it for an hour.

I don’t believe for one second that retail, hairdressers and construction need to be closed.

I could probably make peace with hospitality been closed right now, but again, not until late summer.

walus · 10-02-2021 10:44PM

Arghus wrote: »

What do you think the Government's approach should be from this point on.

Disband or at least overhaul nphet to start with.

Del Griffith · 10-02-2021 10:47PM

We have some people suggesting things might an easing of restrictions in early Summer, we have Leo and co. saying it'll be somewhere between September and the middle of 2022 when restrictions properly ease off, and yesterday we had Sam McConkey saying he reckons it's 3 - 5 years we're looking at.

As there has been little to no resistance so far in Ireland to any of the Governments measures (despite the care home failures, mixed messages through-out, constant pivoting of narrative - pubs to house gatherings to travel, etc), I'm genuinely curious as to the numbers on this question -

Is there any point or time period, where you will say enough is enough and openly flout or resist the measures?

Mods - could we get a poll?

1 - I would be willing to stay locked down and abide by all the regulations forever, if that's what it takes to be Covid-safe.
2 - I will give it the full 5 years, until 2025.
3 - I won't support the measures beyond June 2022.
4 - I won't support the measures beyond September.
5 - I won't support the measures beyond June.
6 - I already don't abide by the regulations.

Some of those timeframes might seem a bit outlandish, but in March 2020 when we were told the lockdown measure was short term, did you think you'd be restricted until 2022?
Nothing is out of the question at this point.

Silentcorner · 10-02-2021 10:47PM

walus wrote: »

Disband or at least overhaul nphet to start with.

Cut off their media oxygen at the very least.

Tony Houlihan shouldn't be allowed near the media, such is his contempt for Government and his fellow NPHET members...we are merely facilitating an egomaniac.

Graham · 10-02-2021 10:51PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The honest answer is, nobody knows for sure. Especially not any 1 person. But this prolonged lockdown is really not working well at all in my opinion. And there are many areas that should be investigated/explored/discussed.

1) Why is Antigen testing still not happening? Could have been really useful and prevented lots of nursing home and hospital cases/deaths. But Tony still believes there is NOTHING we can do in those settings.

2) Why are we mass testing? We’ve conceded that our tracing is not up to scratch and local restrictions is not our approach. So why bother testing healthy people?

3) Why have we not done everything in our power to significantly increase ICU capacity? We have a magic money tree for everything else.

4) Can we ever actually give restrictions a chance to work so we can gauge what might actually help? Or will we constantly s*it the bed and just full lockdown when cases start rising.

5) Airports - We’ve been letting people fly in from all around the globe since this started as long as they pinky promise they’re isolating. Not good enough when actual citizens are getting fines for walking on a beach.

6) Have we actually considered the bigger picture? The economy, cancer screenings, suicides, children education, mental health. I’m not sure we have.

This is just a few points off the top of my head. I’m sure I could think of many more if I put my mind to it for an hour.

I don’t believe for one second that retail, hairdressers and construction need to be closed.

I could probably make peace with hospitality been closed right now, but again, not until late summer.

Without wishing to sound patronising, that's a very well thought out list and I certainly wouldn't disregard it all out of hand. Thanks JD

Arghus · 10-02-2021 10:56PM

Deleted User wrote: »

The honest answer is, nobody knows for sure. Especially not any 1 person. But this prolonged lockdown is really not working well at all in my opinion. And there are many areas that should be investigated/explored/discussed.

1) Why is Antigen testing still not happening? Could have been really useful and prevented lots of nursing home and hospital cases/deaths. But Tony still believes there is NOTHING we can do in those settings.

2) Why are we mass testing? We’ve conceded that our tracing is not up to scratch and local restrictions is not our approach. So why bother testing healthy people?

3) Why have we not done everything in our power to significantly increase ICU capacity? We have a magic money tree for everything else.

4) Can we ever actually give restrictions a chance to work so we can gauge what might actually help? Or will we constantly s*it the bed and just full lockdown when cases start rising.

5) Airports - We’ve been letting people fly in from all around the globe since this started as long as they pinky promise they’re isolating. Not good enough when actual citizens are getting fines for walking on a beach.

6) Have we actually considered the bigger picture? The economy, cancer screenings, suicides, children education, mental health. I’m not sure we have.

This is just a few points off the top of my head. I’m sure I could think of many more if I put my mind to it for an hour.

I don’t believe for one second that retail, hairdressers and construction need to be closed.

I could probably make peace with hospitality been closed right now, but again, not until late summer.

Fair enough JD. I don't agree with everything there, but there's some things I do agree with - I totally agree with your point about airports for example. It's an absolute joke how they have put that on the long finger for nearly a year now.

FintanMcluskey · 10-02-2021 10:57PM

Arghus wrote: »

What do you think the Government's approach should be from this point on.

Immediately open construction and remove the 5km distance rules and allow people to exercise outdoors.

The 5km should be changed to inter-county, it would be a massive boost for the nation even if that’s all that relaxed for the next 2 months. Open cafe’s like they have done in most of the EU.

None of these measures will cause the battlefield level’s of triage in hospitals.

As it stands, the current restrictions will likely stay in place until mid-Summer

According to Leo this year will follow exactly the same format of restrictions as last year. There is vast issues with such a statement, knowing how unnecessarily cautious we were this time last year.

FintanMcluskey · 10-02-2021 11:01PM

Arghus wrote: »

Fair enough JD. I don't agree with everything there, but there's some things I do agree with - I totally agree with your point about airports for example. It's an absolute joke how they have put that on the long finger for nearly a year now.

Can you tell me what you don’t agree with in JD’s post?

He’s articulated very well there

You literally criticised me for doing what you have just done, arguing without explaining

Arghus · 10-02-2021 11:07PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Can you tell me what you don’t agree with in JD’s post?

He’s articulated very well there

You literally criticised me for doing what you have just done, arguing without explaining

All of the points that I disagree with I've argued about here or elsewhere in the forum at length for months and months. There's no shortage of my reasoning if you go back and look. My opinions aren't a mystery.

I thought it would be a refreshing difference and maybe perhaps even constructive to point out where I agree with JD on something rather than to engage in a painstaking point by point rebuttal.

Graham · 10-02-2021 11:07PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Immediately open construction.

I suspect construction will reopen soon. I had a browse through some of the reports from Nov/Dec (about half a dozen), each on had 1 or 2 construction sites as sources of outbreaks so I can understand why this approach is more cautious.

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

remove the 5km distance rules and allow people to exercise outdoors.

The 5km should be changed to inter-county, it would be a massive boost for the nation even if that’s all that relaxed for the next 2 months. Open cafe’s like they have done in most of the EU.

None of these measures will cause the battlefield level’s of triage in hospitals.

They will increase movement though which inevitably will increase case numbers.

I think it's just too soon given the current levels, we'd be relaxing from too high a base which would likely result in another sledgehammer approach in a month. Better to wait a few more weeks to give us a few more months where we can relax restrictions IMO.

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

As it stands, the current restrictions will likely stay in place until mid-Summer

Assuming numbers continue to fall, I'd expect restrictions to ease progressively but cautiously from March.

Beasty · 10-02-2021 11:08PM

Threads merged

Arghus · 10-02-2021 11:14PM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Immediately open construction and remove the 5km distance rules and allow people to exercise outdoors.

The 5km should be changed to inter-county, it would be a massive boost for the nation even if that’s all that relaxed for the next 2 months. Open cafe’s like they have done in most of the EU.

None of these measures will cause the battlefield level’s of triage in hospitals.

As it stands, the current restrictions will likely stay in place until mid-Summer

According to Leo this year will follow exactly the same format of restrictions as last year. There is vast issues with such a statement, knowing how unnecessarily cautious we were this time last year.

Graham covered a lot of stuff in his response that I would agree with.

I don't think these levels of restrictions are likely to last until mid Summer.

I think doing away with the 5km limit will eventually occur, but right at this moment the numbers are too high.

You already can exercise outside, unless I'm seeing things out there.

What should be done about schools? Pubs? Retail?

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

Comments

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII Read OP For Mod Warnings