Stallions

The Tetrarch · 29-01-2021 01:02PM

tatoo wrote: »

I think you're helping to make my point for me, the cup horses aren't wanted, or needed, as flat stallions, so invariably end up in the national hunt covering sheds.......where since 1979 none have been a champion sire, or runner-up.

You made the assertion that Ascot Gold Cup winners do not make good sires.
You mention the top 10 NH sires.

When you consider that perhaps there are 200+ winners of Group flat races each year the chance of any one of those becoming a top sire is slim.
In ten years that is about 2,000 Group flat winners.
There is competition for places at stud. Reaching the top sire rankings requires ability, support from the stud with mares, advertising, and luck.

Here are the 24 horses that won the 33 Ascot Gold Cup races from 1988 to 2020: 7 geldings; 3 fillies; 14 colts

ARCADIAN HEIGHTS ..... G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
ASHAL ........................ M ... In the book A Century Of Champions he was rated the worst Gold Cup winner in the 20th century. No record of him as a stallion.
BIG ORANGE ................G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
CELERIC ......................G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
CLASSIC CLICHE .......... M ... Sired the winner of the Group 1 Falmouth Stakes.
COLOUR VISION .......... G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
DOUBLE TRIGGER ........ M ... Not a stud success.
DRUM TAPS ................. M ... Went to stud in Japan.
ENZELI ....................... M ... Sold to Australia as a 5yo.
ESTIMATE ................... F ... {Fillies don't do well as sires.}
FAME AND GLORY ........ M ... Raced as a 6yo in 2012. Died at stud in February 2017. Four seasons at stud 2013 to 2016.
INDIAN QUEEN .............F ... {Fillies don't do well as sires.}
KAYF TARA .................. M ... Wiki - he has had considerable success at stud: Planet Of Sound; Blaklion; Thistlecrack; Tea For Two; Carruthers.
LEADING LIGHT ............ M ... First foals 2015.
MR DINOS .................... M ... Minor winners.
ORDER OF ST GEORGE ... M ... To stud in 2019.
PAPINEAU ..................... G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
RITE OF PASSAGE .......... F .... {Fillies don't do well as sires.}
ROYAL REBEL ................ G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
SADEEM ....................... M ... Retired to stud but had fertility problems and sired few foals. Sent back into training with Martin Pipe but never ran again.
STRADIVARIUS ...............M ... Still an active racehorse.
TRIP TO PARIS ............... G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
WESTERNER .................. M ... Very successful sire. On pedigreequery.com 20 of his offspring earned 100k+
YEATS ...........................M ... A successful sire. Figuero 564k; Capivari 530k; Shattered Love 320k; Tudor City 302k; Montaly 267k; De Rasher Counter 194k

Of the 14 entire male winners
2 were stud failures
2 were exported (Japan; Australia)
1 died after four seasons at stud
1 had fertility problem and went back into training
1 sired a flat Group 1 winner
1 had only minor winners
3 had considerable success at stud
2 have only recently gone to stud
1 is still in training

I made these comments about "why are English Derby winners not successful at stud" on another forum where I post.
The poster wanted the English Derby reduced from 12f to 10f.
There are over 500 sires at stud in IRE, GB, FR (I keep a file).

The chance of the winners of a Group race
1) becoming a sire are slim
2) remaining a sire are slim
3) being ranked in the top 10 are infinitesimal

A reason Derby winners do not do well at stud (and Arc winners) is the Japanese buy a high percentage of them, and they do badly in Japan.
The leading sires list will always be a mix of talents:
2020 English sires (1) Galileo [English Derby+] (2) Dubawi [Irish 2000] (3) Dark Angel [Middle Park Gr 1 6f] (4) Kodiac [sprint handicapper] (5) Pivotal [sprinter Gr 1 5f] (6) Sea The Stars [English Derby+] (7) Invincible Spirit [sprinter Gr1 6f] (8.) Lope de Vega [Jockey Club 10.5f] (9) Kingman [Irish 2000+] (10) Frankel [English 2000+].
2 x English Derby; 2 x Irish 2000; 1 x Jockey Club; 1 x English 2000; 3 x sprinter Gr1; 1 x sprint handicapper = 10.
Reducing the English Derby in distance you end up with more short distance sires, which as you can see from the 2020 rankings, is already full of 5f, 6f, 8f sires (7 of 10).

My comments on the Champion National Hunt sires since 1979 are
Deep Run: 2nd in the 1969 Irish St Leger beaten 6 lengths by Reindeer, who had earlier been 6th in the English St Leger.
Top of the 1969 International ratings was the Ascot Gold cup winner, Levmoss with 9-5. Reindeer with 8-5, and Deep Run not listed.
Strong Gale: The Irish Free Handicap had Shirley Heights on 92, with Strong Gale in joint 14th place on 80.
Shirley Heights won the English and Irish Derbys. Strong Gale was 2nd in the Irish 2000 Guineas to Jaazeiro, and 5th in the Irish Derby btn 7 lengths.
Supreme Leader: "placed in the Derby" Do you mean 4th in the English Derby to Slip Anchor beaten 13+ lengths?
Old Vic: a very good horse, but missed the English Derby and a chance to take on Nashwan.
King's Theatre: 13th in the 2000 Guineas, 2nd in the Derby
Beneficial: rated 120. One Gr2; one Gr3; one Listed.
Flemensfirth: rated 120.
Milan: Rated 128. Ran in Galileo's year.

The only two close to top class on the racecourse were Old Vic and Milan.
Another point to make is it unlikely that any of these top NH sires will be an influence on the thoroughbred breed.
Their male offspring are almost always gelded.
In the case of Deep Run, he has 460 great-grandchildren, 2 through his sons, and 458 through his daughters (my data).[2;458], Strong Gale [0;177]; Supreme Leader [0;23]; Old Vic [0;169].

tatoo · 29-01-2021 03:22PM

" geldings don't do well as sires "
" fillies don't do we as sires "

Good man.

tatoo · 30-01-2021 11:26PM

The Tetrarch wrote: »

You made the assertion that Ascot Gold Cup winners do not make good sires.
You mention the top 10 NH sires.

When you consider that perhaps there are 200+ winners of Group flat races each year the chance of any one of those becoming a top sire is slim.
In ten years that is about 2,000 Group flat winners.
There is competition for places at stud. Reaching the top sire rankings requires ability, support from the stud with mares, advertising, and luck.

Here are the 24 horses that won the 33 Ascot Gold Cup races from 1988 to 2020: 7 geldings; 3 fillies; 14 colts

ARCADIAN HEIGHTS ..... G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
ASHAL ........................ M ... In the book A Century Of Champions he was rated the worst Gold Cup winner in the 20th century. No record of him as a stallion.
BIG ORANGE ................G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
CELERIC ......................G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
CLASSIC CLICHE .......... M ... Sired the winner of the Group 1 Falmouth Stakes.
COLOUR VISION .......... G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
DOUBLE TRIGGER ........ M ... Not a stud success.
DRUM TAPS ................. M ... Went to stud in Japan.
ENZELI ....................... M ... Sold to Australia as a 5yo.
ESTIMATE ................... F ... {Fillies don't do well as sires.}
FAME AND GLORY ........ M ... Raced as a 6yo in 2012. Died at stud in February 2017. Four seasons at stud 2013 to 2016.
INDIAN QUEEN .............F ... {Fillies don't do well as sires.}
KAYF TARA .................. M ... Wiki - he has had considerable success at stud: Planet Of Sound; Blaklion; Thistlecrack; Tea For Two; Carruthers.
LEADING LIGHT ............ M ... First foals 2015.
MR DINOS .................... M ... Minor winners.
ORDER OF ST GEORGE ... M ... To stud in 2019.
PAPINEAU ..................... G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
RITE OF PASSAGE .......... F .... {Fillies don't do well as sires.}
ROYAL REBEL ................ G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
SADEEM ....................... M ... Retired to stud but had fertility problems and sired few foals. Sent back into training with Martin Pipe but never ran again.
STRADIVARIUS ...............M ... Still an active racehorse.
TRIP TO PARIS ............... G ... [Geldings don't do well as sires.]
WESTERNER .................. M ... Very successful sire. On pedigreequery.com 20 of his offspring earned 100k+
YEATS ...........................M ... A successful sire. Figuero 564k; Capivari 530k; Shattered Love 320k; Tudor City 302k; Montaly 267k; De Rasher Counter 194k

Of the 14 entire male winners
2 were stud failures
2 were exported (Japan; Australia)
1 died after four seasons at stud
1 had fertility problem and went back into training
1 sired a flat Group 1 winner
1 had only minor winners
3 had considerable success at stud
2 have only recently gone to stud
1 is still in training

I made these comments about "why are English Derby winners not successful at stud" on another forum where I post.
The poster wanted the English Derby reduced from 12f to 10f.
There are over 500 sires at stud in IRE, GB, FR (I keep a file).

The chance of the winners of a Group race
1) becoming a sire are slim
2) remaining a sire are slim
3) being ranked in the top 10 are infinitesimal

A reason Derby winners do not do well at stud (and Arc winners) is the Japanese buy a high percentage of them, and they do badly in Japan.
The leading sires list will always be a mix of talents:
2020 English sires (1) Galileo [English Derby+] (2) Dubawi [Irish 2000] (3) Dark Angel [Middle Park Gr 1 6f] (4) Kodiac [sprint handicapper] (5) Pivotal [sprinter Gr 1 5f] (6) Sea The Stars [English Derby+] (7) Invincible Spirit [sprinter Gr1 6f] (8.) Lope de Vega [Jockey Club 10.5f] (9) Kingman [Irish 2000+] (10) Frankel [English 2000+].
2 x English Derby; 2 x Irish 2000; 1 x Jockey Club; 1 x English 2000; 3 x sprinter Gr1; 1 x sprint handicapper = 10.
Reducing the English Derby in distance you end up with more short distance sires, which as you can see from the 2020 rankings, is already full of 5f, 6f, 8f sires (7 of 10).

My comments on the Champion National Hunt sires since 1979 are
Deep Run: 2nd in the 1969 Irish St Leger beaten 6 lengths by Reindeer, who had earlier been 6th in the English St Leger.
Top of the 1969 International ratings was the Ascot Gold cup winner, Levmoss with 9-5. Reindeer with 8-5, and Deep Run not listed.
Strong Gale: The Irish Free Handicap had Shirley Heights on 92, with Strong Gale in joint 14th place on 80.
Shirley Heights won the English and Irish Derbys. Strong Gale was 2nd in the Irish 2000 Guineas to Jaazeiro, and 5th in the Irish Derby btn 7 lengths.
Supreme Leader: "placed in the Derby" Do you mean 4th in the English Derby to Slip Anchor beaten 13+ lengths?
Old Vic: a very good horse, but missed the English Derby and a chance to take on Nashwan.
King's Theatre: 13th in the 2000 Guineas, 2nd in the Derby
Beneficial: rated 120. One Gr2; one Gr3; one Listed.
Flemensfirth: rated 120.
Milan: Rated 128. Ran in Galileo's year.

The only two close to top class on the racecourse were Old Vic and Milan.
Another point to make is it unlikely that any of these top NH sires will be an influence on the thoroughbred breed.
Their male offspring are almost always gelded.
In the case of Deep Run, he has 460 great-grandchildren, 2 through his sons, and 458 through his daughters (my data).[2;458], Strong Gale [0;177]; Supreme Leader [0;23]; Old Vic [0;169].

Interesting that you chose 1988 as the start of your list.

Maybe you might like to include the previous decade, as there are so many geldings now contesting, and winning, the Ascot Gold Cup ( surely an indicator in itself to the race's worthiness as a selector for potential sires ), the previous decade would give quite a bit of evidence as the the ten Ascot Gold Cups were won by seven different entires Shangamuzo, Ardross, Le Moss, Little Wolf, Longboat , Gildoran and Paean......all of whom went to stud, the first named to Brazil, and none of whom could be considered remotely successful,.

31-01-2021 08:06AM

tatoo wrote: »

" geldings don't do well as sires "
" fillies don't do we as sires "

Good man.

I thought it was funny!

Robson99 · 31-01-2021 01:01PM

Some of the best french NH stallions have won over hurdles and fences.

The Tetrarch · 31-01-2021 01:39PM

Robson99 wrote: »

Some of the best french NH stallions have won over hurdles and fences.

I think gelding is often done for the convenience of the trainer.
My choice would be to not geld hurdlers until you know everything about their ability, then only geld the failures.

tatoo · 08-02-2021 02:58AM

Robson99 wrote: »

Some of the best french NH stallions have won over hurdles and fences.

Very true, but from watching flat recruits to jumping over the years it seems that 1m2f horses on the flat are most ideally suited to 2miles over hurdles.
Where does that leave the horse that needed 2 and 1/2 miles on the flat?

The Tetrarch · 08-02-2021 01:55PM

For many years I bought the Sporting Life Weekender (later the Racing Post Weekender) to get the systems articles by Nick Mordin.
January 8, 1994, had an article "Jumps sires in a new light".

"Deep Run has for many years now been accorded the status of Champion National Hunt sire.
However, when you look at his overall wins-to-wins ratio rather than his quantity of winners, a startling fact emerges:
his prominance in the statistics is largely the produce of a massive quantity of runners.
His progeny have run an amazing 3,940 times over the last six seasons for their 525 wins (13.32 per cent wins-to runs)."

He didn't finish in the top twenty in % wins to runs (20th was 14.71%).

There are five top 20 charts in the article:
Top 20 NH sires 1987-1993;
Top 20 sires of hurdle winners;
Top 20 sires of steeplechase winners;
Top 20 sires of NH winners on yielding or softer ground;
Top 20 sires of winners on good or faster ground.

I picked out a few interesting points:

NH soft ground % win rank
Rank .... Sire .............Runs ..... Wins ..... % .......... Profit
1..........Niniski.............178........33.........18.54 ..... +37.47
2 ........ Ardross ...........212........ 35 ...... 16.51 ..... +85.74
14 ...... The Parson ...... 1003....134....... 13.36 ..... -357.63
15 ....... Crash Course ....516 ..... 68 ....... 13.18 .... -165.00
17 ........Deep Run ........1823.....227 ........12.45 .....-557.88

Top 20 steeplechase winners
1..........Be My Native.... 61........20.........32.79 ..... +13.42
8 ........ Ardross ...........105....... 22 ...... 20.95 ..... +67.82
13 ...... Strong Gale ..... 1285....242....... 18.83 ..... -102.59

tatoo · 09-02-2021 08:25PM

Wins to runs while it is a useful metric doesn't tell the full story, what set Deep Run aside was his ability to produce top horse after top horse, relentlessly, he got so many household names....Golden Cygnet, Dawn Run, Morley Street, Daring Run, Deep Sensation, Ekbalco, Waterloo Boy, Golden Friend, Cahervillahow, Granville Again, Fifty Dollars More, he was a super sire, they're keeping sons of the likes of Martaline, Robin des Champs and Kings Theatre as entires in the last few years , it's a pity the same wasn't done with a useful son of Deep Run.

Panrich · 10-02-2021 12:37AM

tatoo wrote: »

Wins to runs while it is a useful metric doesn't tell the full story, what set Deep Run aside was his ability to produce top horse after top horse, relentlessly, he got so many household names....Golden Cygnet, Dawn Run, Morley Street, Daring Run, Deep Sensation, Ekbalco, Waterloo Boy, Golden Friend, Cahervillahow, Granville Again, Fifty Dollars More, he was a super sire, they're keeping sons of the likes of Martaline, Robin des Champs and Kings Theatre as entires in the last few years , it's a pity the same wasn't done with a useful son of Deep Run.

It was also an era where covering was a lot less scientific where every farmer/ small breeder with a mare wanted to go to a good stallion no matter how poorly bred she was and they were a lot more affordable back then. So Deep Run would have covered a lot of poor mares in the hope that the offspring would be the next Golden Cygnet.

tryfix · 10-02-2021 07:16AM

Stowaway (GB) 1994 Slip Anchor On Credit No Pass No Sale 220 681 59 87 26.82 8 9
£1,140,505
2
Flemensfirth (USA) 1992 Alleged Etheldreda Diesis 216 625 68 90 31.48 8 10
£1,129,479
3
Yeats (IRE) 2001 Sadler's Wells Lyndonville Top Ville 237 769 59 87 24.89 4 5
£1,004,960
4
Shantou (USA) 1993 Alleged Shaima Shareef Dancer 142 461 46 65 32.39 6 8
£896,058
5
Getaway (GER) 2003 Monsun Guernica Unfuwain 289 884 73 89 25.26 1 1
£823,589
6
Presenting (GB) 1992 Mtoto D'Azy Persian Bold 207 639 54 70 26.09 4 4
£808,213
7
Oscar (IRE) 1994 Sadler's Wells Snow Day Reliance II 187 557 41 55 21.93 3 3
£770,285
8
Jeremy (USA) 2003 Danehill Dancer Glint In Her Eye Arazi 139 494 49 67 35.25 6 7
£731,070
9
Beneficial (GB) 1990 Top Ville Youthful Green Dancer 119 446 35 48 29.41 5 5
£728,183
10
Westerner (GB) 1999 Danehill Walensee Troy 160 514 44 57 27.5 2 3
£684,594
11
Mahler (GB) 2004 Galileo Rainbow Goddess Rainbow Quest 200 631 50 63 25 3 4
£674,555
12
Milan (GB) 1998

That's the current season's top dozen NH sires.

There are 2 Ascot Gold Cup winners in it, both had top class G1 12f form with Westerner being placed in an Arc and Yeats winning a Coronation Cup.

Bar Jeremy the rest are typical 12f -14f or 10-12f G2, G1 horses with several St Leger winners and placed horses in there.

Milan and Shantou were good enough to win their St Legers.

Stowaway beat his year's St Leger winner over 12f but never tried further than 12f despite having bags of stamina in his pedigree.

Mahler placed 2nd in his St Leger and won the 2mile Queens Vase as 3yo.

Presenting won the G2 Geoffrey Freer stakes over 1m 5 1/2f

Beneficial won the G2 King Edward stakes over 12f and mostly ran over 10f.

Oscar only ran 4 times, his last run being a very fine 2nd to Peintre Celebre in the 12f French Derby

Flemensfirth ran a close up and hampered 5th in a top class 12f French Derby behind Celtic Swing. He was kept to 10f after that.

Jeremy is the odd one out having never run over more than a mile, he was G1 class at a mile and would have got further but he was too fast for the rest of this list.

Going by precedent winning the Ascot Gold Cup makes Order of St George and Stradivarius likely to succeed as NH stallions.

The Tetrarch · 10-02-2021 11:28AM

I have 316 offspring of Deep Run in my data. 306 are fillies; 9 are geldings; 1 is a colt.
The colt is Deep Society, unraced, and sire of 22 runners on pedigreequery.com.
My database is largely flat runners and flat breeding.

In my ratings database Deep Run has 133 horses.
103 are unrated (the majority of these fillies used for breeding and probably unraced); 17 were unraced.
The Deep Run rated runners were rated 19;79;78;80;67;109;72;47;31;71;64;86;40 on the flat (average 64.8).
The average flat rating of all the rated runners (152,095) in my data is 77.9.

Morley Street (by Deep Run) was rated 96 OR and 109 RPR on the flat.
In 1991 he won the Champion Hurdle (NH Grade 1), next race won the Aintree Hurdle (NH Grade 1), then 4th of 7 in a Listed flat race btn 36l, next 2nd of 8 btn shd in a flat Group 3, followed by a win by 10l in the Breeders Cup Chase, and a win in the Ascot Hurdle (Grade 2).

The only NH horse I remember who won a good race on the flat was Alderbrook (Group 2 Prix Dollar).
Sea Pigeon won two Champion Hurdles and three major flat handicaps but no flat Group races as far as I know. He was 7th in the Derby.
Istabraq won three Champion Hurdles. His best flat rating was OR 87, and he had two class D flat wins in 11 flat starts.
Magical Lady, 2nd (DSQ) in the 1996 Triumph Hurdle (29 runners) was rated 60 on the flat (OR 53, RPR 78). (She was disqualified for bad interference near the finish.)

My aim is not to criticise jumps runners but to point out the gulf in class between good (and very expensive) flat sires and the top NH sires.
The reason Deep Run or other NH sires do not produce good son sires is progeny of NH sires are uncompetitive on the flat.
NH breeders will not use slow horses as sires.
They use the best flat runners available, and they are those that do not reach the top rank as flat runners and sires.

Robson99 · 10-02-2021 12:07PM

tryfix wrote: »

Going by precedent winning the Ascot Gold Cup makes Order of St George and Stradivarius likely to succeed as NH stallions.

Good chance for OOSG but I don't think Stradivarius will as he is only a pony. Westerner and Yeats I know are not big horses either but Stradivarius looks small compared to them.
P2P boys don't want small horses and this is reflected at the sales.
Another factor we have in this country compared to France is that a lot of our mares are predominately stamina and the offspring from GC stallions or 2m + stallions inevitably end up slow horses. The French seem to have speedier type of mares and are more selective with the type of mare they cover. Here there are a lot of poor slow mares or unraced mares with a slow pedigree covered with slow stallions.

I think the likes of Jeremy, ( big loss) Jet Away, Maxios, Vadamos, Poets Word to name a few ( basically 1m -1m2f winners )are important to NH breeding going forward as the should inject a bit of speed back into pedigrees.
Nothing scientific to the above

tryfix · 10-02-2021 02:26PM

Robson99 wrote: »

Good chance for OOSG but I don't think Stradivarius will as he is only a pony. Westerner and Yeats I know are not big horses either but Stradivarius looks small compared to them.
P2P boys don't want small horses and this is reflected at the sales.
Another factor we have in this country compared to France is that a lot of our mares are predominately stamina and the offspring from GC stallions or 2m + stallions inevitably end up slow horses. The French seem to have speedier type of mares and are more selective with the type of mare they cover. Here there are a lot of poor slow mares or unraced mares with a slow pedigree covered with slow stallions.

I think the likes of Jeremy, ( big loss) Jet Away, Maxios, Vadamos, Poets Word to name a few ( basically 1m -1m2f winners )are important to NH breeding going forward as the should inject a bit of speed back into pedigrees.
Nothing scientific to the above

That's a very good point about Stradivarius, I had been thinking that his superstar reputation would have seen him being well supported as a NH stallion but there's no getting away from his size.

What kind of stud career could be have?

tatoo · 11-02-2021 11:28PM

tryfix wrote: »

Stowaway (GB) 1994 Slip Anchor On Credit No Pass No Sale 220 681 59 87 26.82 8 9
£1,140,505
2
Flemensfirth (USA) 1992 Alleged Etheldreda Diesis 216 625 68 90 31.48 8 10
£1,129,479
3
Yeats (IRE) 2001 Sadler's Wells Lyndonville Top Ville 237 769 59 87 24.89 4 5
£1,004,960
4
Shantou (USA) 1993 Alleged Shaima Shareef Dancer 142 461 46 65 32.39 6 8
£896,058
5
Getaway (GER) 2003 Monsun Guernica Unfuwain 289 884 73 89 25.26 1 1
£823,589
6
Presenting (GB) 1992 Mtoto D'Azy Persian Bold 207 639 54 70 26.09 4 4
£808,213
7
Oscar (IRE) 1994 Sadler's Wells Snow Day Reliance II 187 557 41 55 21.93 3 3
£770,285
8
Jeremy (USA) 2003 Danehill Dancer Glint In Her Eye Arazi 139 494 49 67 35.25 6 7
£731,070
9
Beneficial (GB) 1990 Top Ville Youthful Green Dancer 119 446 35 48 29.41 5 5
£728,183
10
Westerner (GB) 1999 Danehill Walensee Troy 160 514 44 57 27.5 2 3
£684,594
11
Mahler (GB) 2004 Galileo Rainbow Goddess Rainbow Quest 200 631 50 63 25 3 4
£674,555
12
Milan (GB) 1998

That's the current season's top dozen NH sires.

There are 2 Ascot Gold Cup winners in it, both had top class G1 12f form with Westerner being placed in an Arc and Yeats winning a Coronation Cup.

Bar Jeremy the rest are typical 12f -14f or 10-12f G2, G1 horses with several St Leger winners and placed horses in there.

Milan and Shantou were good enough to win their St Legers.

Stowaway beat his year's St Leger winner over 12f but never tried further than 12f despite having bags of stamina in his pedigree.

Mahler placed 2nd in his St Leger and won the 2mile Queens Vase as 3yo.

Presenting won the G2 Geoffrey Freer stakes over 1m 5 1/2f

Beneficial won the G2 King Edward stakes over 12f and mostly ran over 10f.

Oscar only ran 4 times, his last run being a very fine 2nd to Peintre Celebre in the 12f French Derby

Flemensfirth ran a close up and hampered 5th in a top class 12f French Derby behind Celtic Swing. He was kept to 10f after that.

Jeremy is the odd one out having never run over more than a mile, he was G1 class at a mile and would have got further but he was too fast for the rest of this list.

Going by precedent winning the Ascot Gold Cup makes Order of St George and Stradivarius likely to succeed as NH stallions.

I dont think we can necessarily draw that conclusion, going by your own classification of success 3 out of the last 14 entires to win the Ascot Gold Cup were successful, if you add the previous ten years then it throws up seven more entires of which zero could have been considered successful , so that works out at 3 successful out of the last 21 Gold Cup winning stallions, hardly a statistic that could merit the drawing of your conclusion that the two you name are likely to be successful.
I would consider Yeats to be only moderately successful, when you consider that he was the greatest Gold Cup winner of modern times, and got a very good chance at stud , even getting a stint at Coolmore itself and having NH stock well supported by their top brass.
It could also be argued that much , or at the very least some of Westerners success, is attributable to he being a son of Danehill, a very workable outcross with the multitude of Sadler's Wells granddaughters that are around.
Now on Order of St George , I think he stands a good chance of making it, he is a big strong horse, 16.2 + and has got fine big strong foals, that have sold well and gone to the right people and that will be very much in his favour, he is bound to be very popular as a result this Spring, we will have to wait then for the acid test of the racecourse.

tryfix · 12-02-2021 10:08PM

tatoo wrote: »

I dont think we can necessarily draw that conclusion, going by your own classification of success 3 out of the last 14 entires to win the Ascot Gold Cup were successful, if you add the previous ten years then it throws up seven more entires of which zero could have been considered successful , so that works out at 3 successful out of the last 21 Gold Cup winning stallions, hardly a statistic that could merit the drawing of your conclusion that the two you name are likely to be successful.
I would consider Yeats to be only moderately successful, when you consider that he was the greatest Gold Cup winner of modern times, and got a very good chance at stud , even getting a stint at Coolmore itself and having NH stock well supported by their top brass.
It could also be argued that much , or at the very least some of Westerners success, is attributable to he being a son of Danehill, a very workable outcross with the multitude of Sadler's Wells granddaughters that are around.
Now on Order of St George , I think he stands a good chance of making it, he is a big strong horse, 16.2 + and has got fine big strong foals, that have sold well and gone to the right people and that will be very much in his favour, he is bound to be very popular as a result this Spring, we will have to wait then for the acid test of the racecourse.

I think we'd need a bit of a NH breeding expert to help us define success as a NH stallion. I'll admit to be being far out of my depth when it comes to NH stallions. Moderately successful is alright.

What criteria are you using to define success or failure? For instance Fame and Glory's first crop have only turned 7 and his stats are good yet you have him pinned as a relative failure when I don't think many others would agree with that judgement of him.

tryfix · 16-02-2021 03:56PM

Pivotal retired at 28. An absolute dream of a stallion, more than a little underused with his highest ever fee being £85k for just 2 seasons but about half that for most of most of his life and he started at just £6,000.

https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstock/bloodstock-latest/end-of-an-era-as-cheveley-park-stud-calls-time-on-pivotals-stallion-career/473619

The Tetrarch · 16-02-2021 04:23PM

I have 167 horses rated 100+ by Pivotal in my data and I am sure there are many more.

tryfix · 16-02-2021 05:08PM

The Tetrarch wrote: »

I have 167 horses rated 100+ by Pivotal in my data and I am sure there are many more.

Such a good broodmare sire too without the kind of conveyor belt of bluebloods that the likes of Galileo, Dubawi and now Kingman and Frankel get.

His greatness suffered from being at one of the smaller studs. What he could have done with the books of mares that Frankel gets and he'd have passed on mental soundness whereas Frankel will pass on mental weakness.

Mad about baa baas · 16-02-2021 09:31PM

The Tetrarch wrote: »

I have 167 horses rated 100+ by Pivotal in my data and I am sure there are many more.

His biggest issue I'd say was that while he sired great race horses they were not always sales horses.. majority were pigeon toed and needed a lot of farrier work and often screws to make them saleable

tryfix · 23-02-2021 07:33PM

Interesting times in the Stallion World. The US Jockey Club limiting the number of mares a stallion can serve per year to 140 ( legal war with the big Studs ) and in Australia the Artificial Insemination shenanigans show how far things could swing in the other direction if rules were allowed to slacken.

The Tetrarch · 24-02-2021 12:50PM

https://www.racingpost.com/bloodstock/bloodstock-latest/weatherbys-launches-new-website-dedicated-to-national-hunt-stallions/474843
https://www.nhstallions.co.uk/

A few comments:
It is the slowest loading site ever.
You will be drawing your pension by the time the page refreshes.
Too many advertisements.

Walk In The Park

2021 fee: on application !!!

Annual Sales Averages are given for 2019 and 2020 but not the number of horses sold.
He has twelve foal crops, but they give the sales averages for only two years.

Stud Analysis (Progeny Of Stallion) "More Detail" is interesting.
He had only 9 foals in 2014, but 180, 182, 135, 172 in the last four years.
Was he a failure and then became a wonderful success?
The progeny Total Earnings is misleading.
The 2010 foal crop earned Euro 1,997,495 but my guess is this money was earned in 2016 to 2021.

Percentage Wins On Going: they do not say how many wins, and the raw data would tell more than percentages.
The reader can do his own percentages if given the data.

A National Hunt stallions website is welcome.
It could be improved.
They fall into the trap common in racing of giving percentages (without the raw data), and pre-selecting
the statistics to show the horses in the most favourable light i.e. an advertising take on the data.
Warts and all is what I want to see.

It is a very good first effort.

tryfix · 03-04-2021 09:04AM

Camelot and Frankel were on the mark in the 2 G1 races in Australia this morning.

The 3yo Frankel filly Hungry Heart won the 10f Vinery Stakes. She was held up around last place as the favourite set a fast pace from the front, with the favourite having burned off the field it was Hungry Heart who came from a long way back to collar the favourite.

Our old friend Sir Dragonet won the 12f Tancred Stakes in good style. That's his 2nd G1 in Australia in a fairly short period of time. Another crack at the Melbourne Cup surely awaits him in November but the way he's running he'll be top weight by then.

It's about time that Coolmore gave Camelot a few of those tasty Galileo broodmares that they're loaded down with. His record as a stallion is impressive given his modest enough stud fees.

Mad about baa baas · 03-04-2021 10:29AM

tryfix wrote: »

Camelot and Frankel were on the mark in the 2 G1 races in Australia this morning.

The 3yo Frankel filly Hungry Heart won the 10f Vinery Stakes. She was held up around last place as the favourite set a fast pace from the front, with the favourite having burned off the field it was Hungry Heart who came from a long way back to collar the favourite.

Our old friend Sir Dragonet won the 12f Tancred Stakes in good style. That's his 2nd G1 in Australia in a fairly short period of time. Another crack at the Melbourne Cup surely awaits him in November but the way he's running he'll be top weight by then.

It's about time that Coolmore gave Camelot a few of those tasty Galileo broodmares that they're loaded down with. His record as a stallion is impressive given his modest enough stud fees.

He has great potential as a stallion.. unfortunately he tends to be out of action for periods of time.. hasn't covered a mare for 2weeks now and next week not looking great. . A lot.of owners may be put off by that. Farm where I work have 2 mares that were missed last cycle and due back in soon.. I'd say they will jump ship if he not back on action

Johner · 03-04-2021 07:33PM

Pretty sure Walk In The Park is gone to €16,000. Everyone is mad for him.

We have a yearling filly by him and she is pretty big.

Robson99 · 03-04-2021 08:24PM

Johner wrote: »

Pretty sure Walk In The Park is gone to €16,000. Everyone is mad for him.

We have a yearling filly by him and she is pretty big.

What was he last year Johner

Johner · 03-04-2021 08:51PM

Robson99 wrote: »

What was he last year Johner

He was 10 last year and we got the filly for 8. Looks good value now! We used Blue Bresil this year a few times, think he looks decent value and his stock has sold well at the sales. Who you thinking of using this year?

Robson99 · 04-04-2021 09:01AM

Johner wrote: »

He was 10 last year and we got the filly for 8. Looks good value now! We used Blue Bresil this year a few times, think he looks decent value and his stock has sold well at the sales. Who you thinking of using this year?

Not sure yet. Not sure yet. Narrowed down to OOSG or Vadamos for one and possibly Diamond Boy on another.

The way things are gone you need size IMO. Wasting your time at the sales with a small foal.
Would have liked to try Westerner or Yeats but afraid they might not put enough size into the foals. Both great value

Kew Gardens is also interesting though not sure of his physically make up.

Some interesting cheap others out there like Hillstar, Success Days, Snow Sky, Feel Like Dancing, but not sure how commercial their foals will be until they start producing winners

Mad about baa baas · 04-04-2021 11:35AM

Robson99 wrote: »

Not sure yet. Not sure yet. Narrowed down to OOSG or Vadamos for one and possibly Diamond Boy on another.

The way things are gone you need size IMO. Wasting your time at the sales with a small foal.
Would have liked to try Westerner or Yeats but afraid they might not put enough size into the foals. Both great value

Kew Gardens is also interesting though not sure of his physically make up.

Some interesting cheap others out there like Hillstar, Success Days, Snow Sky, Feel Like Dancing, but not sure how commercial their foals will be until they start producing winners

Maxios? Gets them big strong and good looking

Robson99 · 04-04-2021 11:40AM

Mad about baa baas wrote: »

Maxios? Gets them big strong and good looking

Ya actually forgot to put him on the list....and the busiest sire last year. Exceptional looking as is Vadamos

Stallions

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