What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

mista11 · 30-01-2021 01:59AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

Yeah I dunno, are the EU afraid that AZ factories in the EU will be supplying the UK first? If the EU believe AZ have acted in bad faith previously, maybe they believe they will keep acting in bad faith?

I don't subscribe to the vaccine race. It's not a sprint, it's a marathon.

What the eu want to do is send no other pzizer vaccines to the UK by blocking exports, they have given up on astrazeneca UK so there plan is now to bring in laws to say you can't get any vaccines manufactured in Europe exported, even if your pharma company had a contract with them, the fly in the ointment is ni as its still technicaly in the eu - the UK could direct pzizer to send their contracted amount to ni so the eu thought how can we block that, article 16, let's break the good Friday agreement which we said was fundamental to our brexit principles on ni, don't worry what impact that has on the peace process - everyone needs to realize what your dealing with, they only care about Germany and France

Wolf359f · 30-01-2021 02:09AM

mista11 wrote: »

What the eu want to do is send no other pzizer vaccines to the UK by blocking exports, they have given up on astrazeneca UK so there plan is now to bring in laws to say you can't get any vaccines manufactured in Europe exported, even if your pharma company had a contract with them, the fly in the ointment is ni as its still technicaly in the eu - the UK could direct pzizer to send their contracted amount to ni so the eu thought how can we block that, article 16 let's break the good Friday agreement which we said was fundamental to our brexit principles on ni, don't worry what impact that has on the peace process - everyone needs to realize what your dealing with, they only care about Germany and France

Wow everything is so wrong there... where to start....
They don't want to block exports, they want all vaccine exports to be notified to them before they ship. To stop a company shipping millions of doses outside the EU and then say they have none for the EU. It's introducing transparency.
The USA block all vaccine exports, the UK sign contracts to fulfill their quota first before others, even if it means taking doses from other countries (not 100% confirmed)

NI is not in the EU. If they were in the EU the EU would not have needed to enact article 16 (I'm not defending it's use). Article 16 Does not break the good Friday Agreement. It's not preventing me walking/working across the border.
Article 16 was agreed by all member states and any side enacting it does not breach the withdrawal agreement either. It's there for a reason!

mista11 · 30-01-2021 02:18AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

Wow everything is so wrong there... where to start....
They don't want to block exports, they want all vaccine exports to be notified to them before they ship. To stop a company shipping millions of doses outside the EU and then say they have none for the EU. It's introducing transparency.
The USA block all vaccine exports, the UK sign contracts to fulfill their quota first before others, even if it means taking doses from other countries (not 100% confirmed)

NI is not in the EU. If they were in the EU the EU would not have needed to enact article 16 (I'm not defending it's use). Article 16 Does not break the good Friday Agreement. It's not preventing me walking/working across the border.
Article 16 was agreed by all member states and any side enacting it does not breach the withdrawal agreement either. It's there for a reason!

Ni from movement of goods- is in the eu

mista11 · 30-01-2021 02:25AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

Wow everything is so wrong there... where to start....
They don't want to block exports, they want all vaccine exports to be notified to them before they ship. To stop a company shipping millions of doses outside the EU and then say they have none for the EU. It's introducing transparency.
The USA block all vaccine exports, the UK sign contracts to fulfill their quota first before others, even if it means taking doses from other countries (not 100% confirmed)

NI is not in the EU. If they were in the EU the EU would not have needed to enact article 16 (I'm not defending it's use). Article 16 Does not break the good Friday Agreement. It's not preventing me walking/working across the border.
Article 16 was agreed by all member states and any side enacting it does not breach the withdrawal agreement either. It's there for a reason!

You might need to do some reading on the good Friday agreement as well, movement of people and GOODS is in it

Wolf359f · 30-01-2021 02:27AM

mista11 wrote: »

Ni from movement of goods is in the eu

No, No it's not. It's not in the EU. You don't be half in/half out of the EU.
They are in the single market, like Iceland, Switzerland & Norway.
Single market membership is not EU membership.

smellyoldboot · 30-01-2021 02:30AM

By happenstance, ITV News ended up on the TV tonight at 10. The smugness, jingoism and vitriol on display by the newsreader and "experts" in relation to this was a sight to behold. Could not believe what I was watching. Put me in mind of Fox News in the US with their very biased slant on stories. EU/UK and by extension Irish/UK relations are going to get very very ugly.

mista11 · 30-01-2021 02:35AM

Wolf359f wrote: »

No, No it's not. It's not in the EU. You don't be half in/half out of the EU.
They are in the single market, like Iceland, Switzerland & Norway.
Single market membership is not EU membership.

Not ni my friend do your research

mista11 · 30-01-2021 02:36AM

mista11 wrote: »

Not ni my friend do your research

they are exactly that half in both

sameoldname · 30-01-2021 02:47AM

mista11 wrote: »

they are exactly that half in both

NI are not in the EU, they left there recently, it was in the news I think.
They are also not technically in the single market or the customs union but the Ireland/Northern Ireland protocol does allow them access to both in a limited way.

mista11 · 30-01-2021 03:06AM

sameoldname wrote: »

NI are not in the EU, they left there recently, it was in the news I think.
They are also not technically in the single market or the customs union but the Ireland/Northern Ireland protocol does allow them access to both in a limited way.

What's the limit?

You don't sound very sure?

Dempo1 · 30-01-2021 09:59AM

EU got its bottom spanked, just astonishing the knee jerk reaction re article 16, Hillarious reporting that "an official" who didn't understand the consequences of such an action was to blame. Good to see the bureaucracy is alive and well in the EU, bad and troubling it ever got to this.

Hopefully this unseemly debacle can now be resolved with Ursula back in her box.

suicide_circus · 30-01-2021 10:07AM

a pretty ill conceived, reckless and ultimately futile piece of brinkmanship

30-01-2021 10:11AM

The EU has exposed itself for what it is - an unaccountable, over-bloated, anti-democratic institution. How Ireland was thrown under the bus last night, not even consulted before Article 16 was activated, is deplorable.

Moreover, the EU has done the impossible: uniting both Remainers and Leavers in the UK against a common enemy - justifying the UK's decision to opt to Brexit.

The EU is flailing all over the place - not because of AstraZeneca but because of their own ineptitude and vindictiveness toward how successful Brexit Britain has performed re: vaccinations. The Article 16 episode last night was just another ugly chapter in the same story.

https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/1355270437001981952

froog · 30-01-2021 10:13AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The EU ordered in August and paid the money. They are due these vaccines. The EU needs to push as hard as possible against the Johnson regime.

The pro Tories on here are a joke.

Bit of a stretch calling people pro tory and saying the UK "stole" our vaccines. They made a deal before the EU and are paying for vaccines same as us. They're also a half british venture with at least two british factories in the mix.

micosoft · 30-01-2021 10:14AM

mick087 wrote: »

The only thing i believe or have made comment on is my question Why was the EU commission slow off the mark in ordering this particular vaccine.
I believe they was slow in this case.

Are you as EU citizen happy with our representatives the EU commission performance on acquiring and rolling out to its citizens this particular vaccine up to this point?

Yes. Compared to the deeply corrupt British regime where no procurement rules has led to billions being corruptly given to Tory supporters. The EU is based on rule of law - it simply cannot act in the corrupt way the British government does in procurement.

This is aside from the deal signed having absolutely nothing to do with the issue at hand. We now see that one supplier (AZ) signed prioritised one customer over the other. The timing of the contract signature has nothing to do with this.

ThePanjandrum · 30-01-2021 10:16AM

mista11 wrote: »

The original 100m doses that they cut to 30m

The APA clearly says

WHEREAS, as part of that scale-up, AstraZeneca has committed to use its Best Reasonable Efforts (as defined below) to build capacity to manufacture 300 million Doses of the Vaccine, at no profit and no loss to AstraZeneca, at the total cost currently estimated to be [Redeacted] Euros for distribution within the EU [Redacted] (the “Initial Europe Doses”),

When in doubt, check the contract.

micosoft · 30-01-2021 10:18AM

froog wrote: »

Bit of a stretch calling people pro tory and saying the UK "stole" our vaccines. They made a deal before the EU and are paying for vaccines same as us. They're also a half british venture with at least two british factories in the mix.

Except as has been pointed out, the difference in contract dates is irrelevant (not a butchers shop queue) and the EU funded even more including the UK factories and the UK took imports from Belgium. Neither AZ or the UK publicly said to the EU they would prioritise the first 100m vaccines for the UK only. That was material to the contract signed and indicates bad faith certainly on AZ. To be fair I think one can safely assume the UK govt. always acts in bad faith and the EU should probably have been wise to that after the Brexit negotatiations.

micosoft · 30-01-2021 10:23AM

Deleted User wrote: »

The EU has exposed itself for what it is - an unaccountable, over-bloated, anti-democratic institution. How Ireland was thrown under the bus last night, not even consulted before Article 16 was activated, is deplorable.

Moreover, the EU has done the impossible: uniting both Remainers and Leavers in the UK against a common enemy - justifying the UK's decision to opt to Brexit.

The EU is flailing all over the place - not because of AstraZeneca but because of their own ineptitude and vindictiveness toward how successful Brexit Britain has performed re: vaccinations. The Article 16 episode last night was just another ugly chapter in the same story.

Article 16 was never activated. A proposal was included in emergency legislation to deal with AZ's breach of contract and the Vaccine nationalism of the UK. It was withdrawn within hours after the Irish government made it's views on the matter known.

Nobody cares in the EU about Leavers or Remainers anymore - Brexit is done and whatever toxic debate occurs in the UK it is of no consequence for the EU.

Britain was "successful" because unfortunately the EU underestimated how low they would go - taking imports of vaccines while blocking exports. The EU needs to recognise the UK has an unfriendly state - which is exactly what the emergency legislation does. Brexit Britain has been a complete failure so far and its success in Vaccine nationalism will be a pyrrhic victory within months.

cnocbui · 30-01-2021 10:23AM

Astra Zenica seem in the wrong to me, not the EU. Their claim that alternative signing dates had an impact on manufacturing capacity and other technical realities is just farcical. A bare faced lie I don't think they even expected anyone to believe.

30-01-2021 10:25AM

smellyoldboot wrote: »

By happenstance, ITV News ended up on the TV tonight at 10. The smugness, jingoism and vitriol on display by the newsreader and "experts" in relation to this was a sight to behold. Could not believe what I was watching. Put me in mind of Fox News in the US with their very biased slant on stories. EU/UK and by extension Irish/UK relations are going to get very very ugly.

Did people miss Brexit? The relations were ugly already. The Brits spent 2 years fully willing to throw the NI border issue under the bus if it gave them a chance of a better deal

The level of over reaction against the EU last night compared to the reaction to all of the crap the UK has pulled in the last 2 years in mind boggling

Carfacemandog · 30-01-2021 10:28AM

Stupid move from the EU to do this, but it's absolutely gas watching the usual crowd on social media etc trying to claim "dictatorship towards its members!" and only for the EU backtracked within 12 hours of a country comprising of 1.1% of its total population expressing severe dissatisfaction with the move.

To see some still trying this one after said backtrack is... not surprising. :pac:

ThePanjandrum · 30-01-2021 10:29AM

mista11 wrote: »

The original 100m doses that they cut to 30m

volchitsa wrote: »

Emergency authorisation affects who takes responsibility for any patients suffering health issues as a result of the vaccine. The British and U.S. governments took on that risk so as to get the vaccine sooner. It was a reasonable gamble for them, with their disastrous infection rates. Not such an obvious choice for the European governments, who'd locked down much harder and kept the rates that much lower.

In hindsight of course...

Read Articles 14 and 15 of the APA, "Indemnification" and "Release; Limitation of Liability for claims other than third party indemnification; Disclaimer of Warranties."

30-01-2021 10:38AM

micosoft wrote: »

Article 16 was never activated. A proposal was included in emergency legislation to deal with AZ's breach of contract and the Vaccine nationalism of the UK. It was withdrawn within hours after the Irish government made it's views on the matter known.

Nobody cares in the EU about Leavers or Remainers anymore - Brexit is done and whatever toxic debate occurs in the UK it is of no consequence for the EU.

Britain was "successful" because unfortunately, the EU underestimated how low they would go - taking imports of vaccines while blocking exports. The EU needs to recognize the UK has an unfriendly state - which is exactly what the emergency legislation does. Brexit Britain has been a complete failure so far and its success in Vaccine nationalism will be a pyrrhic victory within months.

To the contrary, it is the EU who is being "nationalistic" - the Cypriot health minister of the EU calling it an "export transparency mechanism", which is a euphemism for vaccine nationalism. No vaccines produced within the EU can be exported to "third countries", they say.

So even though the UK is set to receive Pfizer vaccine produced in Belgium, the unelected European Commission now says that those vaccines cannot be exported to the UK unless permission is sought. Again, who are the ones being vaccine nationalists? Certainly not the UK.

This is despite the fact the UK has entered into a contract with a private company to receive these vaccines as was initially agreed, irrespective of where these vaccines are manufactured.

Ultimately, this is a case of the EU punishing the UK for its decision to opt to Brexit - and to seek a scapegoat for their own incompetence on the vaccine question. Instead of blaming themselves, the European Commission cynically points to the UK as the source of their problems.

30-01-2021 10:42AM

Deleted User wrote: »

To the contrary, it is the EU who is being "nationalistic" - the Cypriot health minister of the EU calling it an "export transparency mechanism", which is a euphemism for vaccine nationalism. No vaccines produced within the EU can be exported to "third countries", they say.

So even though the UK is set to receive Pfizer vaccine produced in Belgium, the unelected European Commission now says that those vaccines cannot be exported to the UK unless permission is sought. Again, who are the ones being vaccine nationalists? Certainly not the UK.

This is despite the fact the UK has entered into a contract with a private company to receive these vaccines as was initially agreed, irrespective of where these vaccines are manufactured.

Ultimately, this is a case of the EU punishing the UK for its decision to opt to Brexit - and to seek a scapegoat for their own incompetence on the vaccine question. Instead of blaming themselves, the European Commission cynically points to the UK as the source of their problems.

Funny how we all have biases and see things differently..

The EU isn't going to stop any vaccines going to the UK. This just gives them a mechanism to ensure nothing untoward is going on.

lawred2 · 30-01-2021 10:45AM

oh good - another Brexit thread

micosoft · 30-01-2021 10:46AM

Deleted User wrote: »

To the contrary, it is the EU who is being "nationalistic" - the Cypriot health minister of the EU calling it an "export transparency mechanism", which is a euphemism for vaccine nationalism. No vaccines produced within the EU can be exported to "third countries", they say.

It is literally a direct response to the discovery that the UK has been practicing vaccine nationalism since last year and has signed agreements that would undermine contracts with the EU while happily taking imports. It's an outrageous statement to accuse the EU of starting vaccine nationalism when the basis of the EU deal was to equitably share among 27 members. Further evidence is that the restrictions only apply to rich countries with vaccine production capabilities and specifically excludes 100+ nations in Africa and elsewhere.

The only actor in bad faith is the UK.

While being distracting by article 16 we are seeing some pretty strong messaging coming from member states https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/30/half-friends-is-not-a-concept-uk-should-decide-who-its-allies-are-says-macron that we see what the UK is doing and it will have serious real world consequences.

cnocbui · 30-01-2021 10:50AM

Deleted User wrote: »

To the contrary, it is the EU who is being "nationalistic" - the Cypriot health minister of the EU calling it an "export transparency mechanism", which is a euphemism for vaccine nationalism. No vaccines produced within the EU can be exported to "third countries", they say.

So even though the UK is set to receive Pfizer vaccine produced in Belgium, the unelected European Commission now says that those vaccines cannot be exported to the UK unless permission is sought. Again, who are the ones being vaccine nationalists? Certainly not the UK.

This is despite the fact the UK has entered into a contract with a private company to receive these vaccines as was initially agreed, irrespective of where these vaccines are manufactured.

Ultimately, this is a case of the EU punishing the UK for its decision to opt to Brexit - and to seek a scapegoat for their own incompetence on the vaccine question. Instead of blaming themselves, the European Commission cynically points to the UK as the source of their problems.

Nothing wrong with vaccine nationalism in the face of companies acting improperly when it is perceived that lives may be at stake. A politician of a tiny EU member state mouthing off their opinion is not a measure of overall EU policy or intent, which you are claiming it is. You sound like you might be a brexit supporter.

And I don't see any mention that this sort of vaccine prioritisation policy was originally initiated by the US - champion of free markets and free enterprise, except when it doesn't suit them:

President Donald Trump signed a mostly symbolic executive order Tuesday specifying that the United States should get first access to any vaccine, formalizing with fanfare what experts say is already de facto U.S. policy.

30-01-2021 10:54AM

micosoft wrote: »

The only actor in bad faith is the UK.

While being distracting by article 16 we are seeing some pretty strong messaging coming from member states https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/30/half-friends-is-not-a-concept-uk-should-decide-who-its-allies-are-says-macron that we see what the UK is doing and it will have serious real world consequences.

The same Macron who is questioning the UK's role as an ally.

The same Macron and Merkel who question the safety of the AstraZeneca vaccine given its roots to Oxford.

It's all the same cynical politics - rooted in anti-Brexit envy and hysteria.

cnocbui · 30-01-2021 10:56AM

Deleted User wrote: »

The same Macron who is questioning the UK's role as an ally.

The same Macron and Merkel who question the safety of the AstraZeneca vaccine given its roots to Oxford.

It's all the same cynical politics. The only difference is that I can see it from both sides, whereas you appear to be wearing 1-inch thick rose-tinted glasses that somehow everything EU forces do/says must always be made bona fide.

The efficacy of the AZ vaccine was first questioned and had doubt cast upon it by Australian researchers - nice try there Bruce.

30-01-2021 10:59AM

cnocbui wrote: »

The efficacy of the AZ vaccine was first raised by Australian researchers - nice try there Bruce.

Both statements can be true - that Australian researchers identified questions, and that Macron and Merkel's reference to the Oxford vaccine as "quasi-effective" is entirely politicized, serving to undermine faith in the public to take that vaccine.

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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