What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

mick087 · 28-01-2021 05:54PM

Mullaghteelin wrote: »

Moreover, anyone raising questions about the EU's culpability is accused of being a Tory-loving Brexit cheerleader. You're not a allowed to take a neutral, critical stance. To question the EU is to go against the green jersey "we're all in this together" mantra that our government and media have been pushing.

Most people would not believe raising questions about the EU's culpability is a reason to accused of being a Tory-loving Brexit cheerleader.

But on this forum many are firm believers in the EU and will support its commission no matter what. i view this as a form of patriotism.

JacksonHeightsOwn · 28-01-2021 05:57PM

so is this Oxford vaccine even approved yet in the EU?

I thought today was the day it was getting the green light?

CIARAN_BOYLE · 28-01-2021 06:00PM

chrisbonnie wrote: »

so is this Oxford vaccine even approved yet in the EU?

I thought today was the day it was getting the green light?

Tomorrow is the meeting day to approve it.

NeuralNetwork · 28-01-2021 06:03PM

brickster69 wrote: »

Sounds promising

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/uk-manufacturing-covid-vaccine-valneva-b906243.html

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/IP_21_51

https://valneva.com/press-release/valneva-in-advanced-discussions-with-european-commission-to-supply-up-to-60-million-doses-of-inactivated-adjuvanted-covid-19-vaccine-candidate/

https://www.europeanpharmaceuticalreview.com/news/139688/valneva-may-provide-europe-with-the-only-inactivated-virus-vaccine-for-covid-19/

https://www.biopharma-reporter.com/Article/2021/01/12/Boosting-COVID-19-vaccines-supplies-EU-concludes-exploratory-talks-with-Valneva

I wouldn't get too excited about the vaccine nationalism hype. They're working with the European Commission in a big way too.

VLA2001 entered phase 1/2 clinical studies in December 2020 and the initial safety and immunogenicity data is expected in April 2021.

My only concern is that if inactivated vaccines had worked for coronaviruses, they'd have been on the market by now. They must be doing something quite different with adjuncts, as I think this strategy has been tried fairly early on and with SARS and MERS by quite a few of the big vaccine makers.

It'll be interesting to see where it goes but it's still a fairly early stage stuff.

I think though, unfortunately, we are going to see a rise in vaccine nationalism and it's also just a rather unpleasant reality of the poor relationship between the Tories and the EU after what was a really acrimonious Brexit that is still on going. It's going to be particularly nasty in the British media bubble, perhaps far more so than reality though.

Donald Trump · 28-01-2021 06:07PM

Mullaghteelin wrote: »

Moreover, anyone raising questions about the EU's culpability is accused of being a Tory-loving Brexit cheerleader. You're not a allowed to take a neutral, critical stance. To question the EU is to go against the green jersey "we're all in this together" mantra that our government and media have been pushing.

You'd first have to explain where you think they are culpable. They did a deal, signed a contract and handed over money based on a particular schedule.

They did deals with multiple suppliers in order to diversify the risk.

It seems that one of the suppliers chose to sell the EU funded stockpiles to another customer and only let them know at the last minute.

Most of the "criticism" seems to be something that might be being blindly echoed from a Nigel Farage video.

(BTW, invoking a "critical neutral stance" reminds me a bit of the likes of your man Paul Murphy and his buddies banging on cars and intimidating water meter installers while screaming "peaceful protest" into their faces through a loudhailer)

basill · 28-01-2021 06:10PM

AZs initial unwillingness initially to publish a commercial contract is not only about breaching NDAs it will be about protecting sensitive contractually agreed items such as price. Hence why they are meeting with the EU to agree on redacting certain parts of the contract. Outside of the EU most states are negotiating separately and will be paying a different price.

9db3xj7z41fs5u · 28-01-2021 06:13PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

You'd first have to explain where you think they are culpable. They did a deal, signed a contract and handed over money based on a particular schedule.

They did deals with multiple suppliers in order to diversify the risk.

It seems that one of the suppliers chose to sell the EU funded stockpiles to another customer and only let them know at the last minute.

Most of the "criticism" seems to be something that might be being blindly echoed from a Nigel Farage video.

(BTW, invoking a "critical neutral stance" reminds me a bit of the likes of your man Paul Murphy and his buddies banging on cars and intimidating water meter installers while screaming "peaceful protest" into their faces through a loudhailer)

I guess they have forgotten the "no dogs, no Irish" days in the UK. But these same politicians who allowed the "no Irish" are going to suddenly treat Ireland as an equal! They are far more trust-worthy than the EU.

HalfAndHalf · 28-01-2021 06:18PM

Mullaghteelin wrote: »

Moreover, anyone raising questions about the EU's culpability is accused of being a Tory-loving Brexit cheerleader. You're not a allowed to take a neutral, critical stance. To question the EU is to go against the green jersey "we're all in this together" mantra that our government and media have been pushing.

Agreed. To be fair my views are clearly not appreciated, it seems the majority are happy to blindly support and follow the EC’s handling of any situation on our behalf no matter the negative outcome for us. Ironic really.

Bit cynical · 28-01-2021 06:19PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

Unless other contracts details are specified in the EU contract they don't come into it.

Best effort is between AZ and EU unless the contract says, recognising that AZ has supply the UK with xxx doses AZ will make best effort to supply thr eu.

However I would imagine a lot concerning "best efforts" is deliberately left open to interpretation. If they are heavily committed to supplying the UK and indeed have already shipped some those vaccines, then "best efforts" is unlikely to include trying to get them back off the UK (who would be under no obligation to oblige) in order to cover some manufacturing problem in Belgium.

I admit this is speculation on my part but we are all speculating at the moment as no one has seen the contracts.

9db3xj7z41fs5u · 28-01-2021 06:25PM

Bit cynical wrote: »

However I would imagine a lot concerning "best efforts" is deliberately left open to interpretation. If they are heavily committed to supplying the UK and indeed have already shipped some those vaccines, then "best efforts" is unlikely to include trying to get them back off the UK (who would be under no obligation to oblige) in order to cover some manufacturing problem in Belgium.

I admit this is speculation on my part but we are all speculating at the moment as no one has seen the contracts.

If AZ have legal justification for their failure to deliver, then I don't understand why they are so reluctant to publish

The price that the EU is paying to AZ for the vaccine is common knowledge

Donald Trump · 28-01-2021 06:29PM

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

Agreed. To be fair my views are clearly not appreciated, it seems the majority are happy to blindly support and follow the EC’s handling of any situation on our behalf no matter the negative outcome for us. Ironic really.

Well your belief appears to be that if the EU had signed the agreement earlier than August that they'd have their vaccines now. And that's obviously a load of shite

Given that AZ have apparently sold EU stock paid and funded by that August deal, I can't see how you simultaneously think that AZ were entitled to do so if they felt like it, but at the same time thinking that the same people wouldn't possibly have tried to pull the same scam if the deal was signed 2 weeks earlier.

mick087 · 28-01-2021 06:37PM

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

Agreed. To be fair my views are clearly not appreciated, it seems the majority are happy to blindly support and follow the EC’s handling of any situation on our behalf no matter the negative outcome for us. Ironic really.

All views are always appreciated but not shown.
Some will agree with you some will disagree with you.
What ever you believe is always right for you.

9db3xj7z41fs5u · 28-01-2021 06:39PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Well your belief appears to be that if the EU had signed the agreement earlier than August that they'd have their vaccines now. And that's obviously a load of shite

Given that AZ have apparently sold EU stock paid and funded by that August deal, I can't see how you simultaneously think that AZ were entitled to do so if they felt like it, but at the same time thinking that the same people wouldn't possibly have tried to pull the same scam if the deal was signed 2 weeks earlier.

Moreover, in August 2020, the phase 3 trials were ongoing. Thus, it wasn't confirmed that it was going to be a successful intervention at that point. Imagine the outrage if they had signed a contract for a dud treatment in the earlier months! The same protesters would have been giving out that the EU is wasting our money

Tyrone212 · 28-01-2021 06:43PM

Yevon wrote: »

'

Great that they have rowed back and are going to supply significantly more than the 31 million.

?

Wolf359f · 28-01-2021 06:44PM

Evan Rich Storefront wrote: »

Moreover, in August 2020, the phase 3 trials were ongoing. Thus, it wasn't confirmed that it was going to be a successful intervention at that point. Imagine the outrage if they had signed a contract for a dud treatment in the earlier months! The same protesters would have been giving out that the EU is wasting our money

The same cohort have been giving out the EU wasted money on Sanofi-GSK, so nothing new there.

NeuralNetwork · 28-01-2021 06:47PM

Wolf359f wrote: »

The same cohort have been giving out the EU wasted money on Sanofi-GSK, so nothing new there.

Sanofi is now on board with Pfizer and BioNTech to assist in aspects of getting the vaccine rolled out.

I think there are people who will just never be happy with any decision ever. There were absolutely known risks in a spread bet. That's why it was spread!

28-01-2021 06:49PM

Tyrone212 wrote: »

?

Tony Connolly reported this on RTE tonight.

CruelSummer · 28-01-2021 06:50PM

I’m beginning to think this vaccine is a huge disappointment and should possibly be scrapped and challenged in court in time by the EU.
1. Spurious data re over 65’s - not enough of this age group enrolled in the trials.
2. ‘Mixing up’ of dosages in trials which happened to produce ‘better efficacy’ - highly unprofessional.
3. Abysmal failure to honour its contractual agreement with a wealthy bloc of countries, while gaining funding from this bloc to develop this vaccine.
4. Trust issues - would I trust this company with what it’s putting in my arm when its behaviour has been anything but reliable - the answer is currently no.

Tyrone212 · 28-01-2021 06:51PM

Flying Fox wrote: »

Tony Connolly reported this on RTE tonight.

Oh right thanks.

mick087 · 28-01-2021 07:08PM

CruelSummer wrote: »

I’m beginning to think this vaccine is a huge disappointment and should possibly be scrapped and challenged in court in time by the EU.
1. Spurious data re over 65’s - not enough of this age group enrolled in the trials.
2. ‘Mixing up’ of dosages in trials which happened to produce ‘better efficacy’ - highly unprofessional.
3. Abysmal failure to honour its contractual agreement with a wealthy bloc of countries, while gaining funding from this bloc to develop this vaccine.
4. Trust issues - would I trust this company with what it’s putting in my arm when its behaviour has been anything but reliable - the answer is currently no.

The vaccine itself is not the disappointment this i believe is a fantastic achievement by Oxford.
The disappointment is how the human race is dealing with the vaccine itself.

If the world had got together yes i know short notice but if the will was there then a world wide roll out could of happened. Yes i know it would not be easy who would run it? How do we elect its the leaders of such an organization?

Maybe this something for the future we just not ready for this now.

sameoldname · 28-01-2021 07:09PM

mick087 wrote: »

What ever you believe is always right for you.

If there was ever a sentence that encapsulates why the world is the way it is, it's this. "You're right because you feel you're right." Jesus, the naked stupidity of it.

28-01-2021 07:13PM

mick087 wrote: »

The vaccine itself is not the disappointment this i believe is a fantastic achievement by Oxford.
The disappointment is how the human race is dealing with the vaccine itself.

Human nature at work.

The vaccine is the equivalent of throwing one large slab of red meat into a colosseum of insanely hungry lions.

NeuralNetwork · 28-01-2021 07:26PM

There's also quite a difference in legal processes in continental style civil code systems and the often rather more wishy-washy approaches you'll see in some Common Law jurisdictions where things can be left open to reinterpretation.

If that contract contains specific clauses about something, there won't really be any significant room for manoeuvre or fuzzy interpretations.

Civil code systems are often much more about simple transparency of words on paper.

mick087 · 28-01-2021 07:31PM

sameoldname wrote: »

If there was ever a sentence that encapsulates why the world is the way it is, it's this. "You're right because you feel you're right." Jesus, the naked stupidity of it.

No the world is the way it is because this is the society we have created not because of a sentence.

HalfAndHalf · 28-01-2021 07:38PM

Donald Trump wrote: »

Well your belief appears to be that if the EU had signed the agreement earlier than August that they'd have their vaccines now. And that's obviously a load of shite

Given that AZ have apparently sold EU stock paid and funded by that August deal, I can't see how you simultaneously think that AZ were entitled to do so if they felt like it, but at the same time thinking that the same people wouldn't possibly have tried to pull the same scam if the deal was signed 2 weeks earlier.

I have never once said that! Ever!!!

Perhaps collate who you’re disagreeing with before misquoting people.

mick087 · 28-01-2021 07:38PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Human nature at work.

The vaccine is the equivalent of throwing one large slab of red meat into a colosseum of insanely hungry lions.

Yes to think the world at such a time of crisis have not pulled together.

We now have to put our faith in the EU commission for our share of vaccines.

Ted_YNWA · 28-01-2021 07:39PM

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

Oh here we go again, still stalking me I see. This is getting weird now, I might have to call the guards for this level of infatuation!

You’re just sore because you got called out on spreading false information, the corrected yourself (incorrectly) and have spent the rest of the time blaming me for your inability to construct a proper post.

Perhaps you should go back to your time off, 184 posts in 3 years shows you clearly just come here from time to time to stir things up then crawl back off!

Threadbanned

NeuralNetwork · 28-01-2021 07:45PM

mick087 wrote: »

Yes to think the world at such a time of crisis have not pulled together.

We now have to put our faith in the EU commission for our share of vaccines.

I think the European Commission is in a bit of an awkward and unprecedented situation.

They're managing a much more complex set of circumstances than a single national government as there are competing interests and conflicting interests and differing views, yet they have to find a decent outcome.

There's a ton of hype around the AstraZeneca / Oxford vaccine in the British press because it's a British development and that's understandable. However, it's not the only game in town and as this progresses there will be more capacity in the EU.

I am more optimistic about the Pfizer / BioNTech ramping up of capacity as those are really excellent vaccines with solid performance and good data.

CureVac + Bayer will come into the picture soon enough and in the meantime you've J&J-Janssen's viral vector vaccine which looks very solid too.

and you've Moderna which is also rolling out.

My view of it is that the EU is just having teething problems and the whole thing will come good and be ramped up into what will probably end up being a very successful programme.

The alternative would have been 27 countries, most of which are well resourced, wealthy fighting over the same resources and possible vaccine nationalism that could have ended up with lack of access to production sites. You're already seeing that with UK/EU relations. Just imagine that if it were multiplied by 27.

At the start of the pandemic, we saw countries grabbing PPE and all sorts of crazy stuff until the Commission stepped in and calmed it down.

Ireland might have ducked and dived and come up with some strategy to get access to large qualities by just throwing cash and connections at it but then again we might have been up against a reelected Donald Trump and MAGA (that was a possibility a few months ago), the UK in full Brexit paranoia and then umpteen other EU countries all squabbling over supplies.

The main fault I would say I see with the EU procurement plan is it was initially over cautious about scale. That has been revised upwards as the crisis rolled on.

monkeybutter · 28-01-2021 08:03PM

NeuralNetwork wrote: »

There's also quite a difference in legal processes in continental style civil code systems and the often rather more wishy-washy approaches you'll see in some Common Law jurisdictions where things can be left open to reinterpretation.

If that contract contains specific clauses about something, there won't really be any significant room for manoeuvre or fuzzy interpretations.

Civil code systems are often much more about simple transparency of words on paper.

Do you even know under what jurisdiction the contract was signed

Donald Trump · 28-01-2021 08:05PM

HalfAndHalf wrote: »

I have never once said that! Ever!!!

Perhaps collate who you’re disagreeing with before misquoting people.

I know you are threadbanned but apologies if I mixed you up with other posters. I thought that you had said that. My mistake if so.

What exactly is happening with AstraZeneca?

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