2021 Irish Property Market chat - *mod warnings post 1*

Timing belt wrote: »

There definitely needs to be flexibility and that’s why you will find people needing to be in the office more than just 1-2 days a week at busy times. Obviously different roles will have different requirements but there will still be a need to be reasonably close to the office.

I can’t see a 2 hour commute plus traffic each way being manageable in winter while working 12 hour day at year end. Obviously there are hotels etc. but think this will influence decisions

like i said, and another poster has alluded to, itll impact career progression on those that decide to WFH more and make purchasing decisions that make getting to the office difficult.

Cyrus wrote: »

like i said, and another poster has alluded to, itll impact career progression on those that decide to WFH more and make purchasing decisions that make getting to the office difficult.

I worked a hybrid model for 3 years and all managers were in 5 days a week despite being allowed wfh 2 days a week

TheSheriff wrote: »

The right to 'request' to WFH is very different to the 'right' to work from home.

Look to industries which have been doing this for years, pharma etc and you will see how this pans out.

John who wants to WFH 2/3 days a week will likely be allowed to, after they pass some certain predetermined time by the company (my last employer was 1 year). John will ultimately (unfairly) have poorer career progression, presence in the company etc, whatever way you want to call all that office *bull*. It's true for companies with a hybrid approach. Others will choose to work in the office, pay more money etc.

Both will have a different quality of life, whose is better depends on your prefence.

Some will leave Dublin, some might move to another part of Dublin etc. All Dublin based young professionals are not looking to flock to rural Ireland to live that country life they always wanted.

I don’t disagree with this, I’ve worked in IT for 26 years, so I’m basing my experiences on that. We used to say there was more work done in the pub than the office, in terms of networking getting promotions etc.

I think we’ll more than likely hit a hybrid model, 2 days in the office 3 at home. Hard to know how it’ll pan out, if management take advantage of WFH then everyone else will, I’ve seen anecdotal evidence of this happening already with bank staff having to go into the branches but the managers working from home a couple of days a week.

It’s also true that people in their 20s will want to be in cities, but it’s also true that a lot of people are in Dublin because they can’t work anywhere else, it’s also true that the Irish city that people want to be in may not necessarily be Dublin.

Time will tell on this but I think that everyone’s way of working has changed irrevocably, also I think that IT companies in other parts of Ireland could suffer serious retention issues, if those staff can now get jobs from Dublin companies or multinationals based in Dublin, with higher wages benefitsetc, and carry on living in the country.

I know someone is going to say wages will drop because of a lower cost of living outside Dublin, that never happens in my experience, if someone is good he’ll be paid the same rate as other members on the team, give or take, besides there’s nowhere in a Ireland really where you couldn’t do 2 days a week in Dublin if you had to.

(Alright it’d be a pain in the ass from Dingle but you get the idea)

schmittel wrote: »

I

I know an employer (SME) who says he now has a whole new understanding and appreciation of who the most valuable and productive employees really are - those who can deliver while WFHing, and he says generally it is the opposite of those who shone in the office.

In our place(SME tech) the middle managers who used to swan around barking orders in the office are now heavily exposed with senior management asking "what did these people actually do?"

schmittel wrote: »

Exactly. Two big costs for businesses are premises and personnel - there is a lot of fat that can be trimmed off if WFH makes overpriced offices and overpriced middle management superfluous.

We have two City Centre offices, the larger one is up for sale at the minute and the smaller one will be kept for client meetings/visits and to have some sort of physical presence more for potential customer optics than anything else.

The middle managers certainly are worried, the proof of this is them beginning to send emails at 2AM/3AM/4AM about pedantic things.

DataDude wrote: »

I think this definitely held true in the past because if you did WFH you were seen as not committed. As it becomes more normalized it'll be interesting to see if this continues to hold true.

Certainly in my place we are talking a lot about how this could help Diversity & Inclusion. How senior management should lead by example WFH etc. A number of our most senior staff are pushing for more WFH for themselves (to quote our CFO - "If you think things are just going to back to normal after all this and that WFH isn't going to be a major part of the future, you're living in denial").

I believe that will change the dynamics vs WFH of the past. Entire company's will embrace, rather than a few people with special circumstances doing it and being "out of sight, out of mind" for promotions!

That’s fine for your CFO, it’s the person who wants to succeed him or her that has the quandary.

I can’t wait to get back in the office. My wife goes to her place of work every day but she ignore the W in WFH and leaves a list of things for me to get done around the house every day. Every single day

Marius34 wrote: »

What you mean opposite in this case? What do you have in mind? That Indian Master students/fresh graduates are not planning to come/return to Dublin? or that European workers left Dublin? or etc?

my experience is that international people have gone to their home countries to WFH and are not coming back, and you have had a different experience. great.


students yes students will always need to go to school but IN MY OPINION we may not get as many international students who travel over to study abroad for the year for awhile.


anywho

TobyHolmes wrote: »

my experience is that international people have gone to their home countries to WFH and are not coming back, and you have had a different experience. great.


students yes students will always need to go to school but IN MY OPINION we may not get as many international students who travel over to study abroad for the year for awhile.


anywho

To be honest, different experience is very interesting to me, and a case of people working from their home countries. It's very unusual times, how this will end up. If you really work outside Ireland, for Irish company there is difficult tax implications. Since person working 183 days in other country by default becomes a tax resident of that country.

I told my manager this week that I would work from home for the rest of 2021. They are downsizing the office space when the lease runs out in July. The plan is to bring in a hotdesk program. I will probably move to 1 day in the office in 2022.

I know 2 guys elsewhere that are doing their WFH in Spain and Portugal respectively. They gave up their leases and are renting cheap beside the sea. I don't think their employer knows. My employer wouldn't have a clue if I was away.

PropQueries wrote: »

But aren’t a significant percentage of the staff in Ireland working for Facebook, google, Microsoft actually employed by outsourcers e.g. Cpl, Accenture etc.

Can’t they they just use their existing operations in Eastern Europe to relocate or hire new staff given that it has now been proven that a lot of the work can be done just as well remotely.

How would that impact on the taxes google etc. pay here as google, Facebook, Microsoft etc. aren’t employing many of their Irish staff directly anyway.

if the work is undertaken outside Ireland then the companies could have a tax liability in the country the work is undertaken. It makes no difference if it is agency staff or staff directly employed.

PropQueries wrote: »

Sure aren’t most of the drugs “manufactured” in Ireland actually manufactured in other EU countries. They do a bit of the “quality control” and “packaging” here and they manage to only pay Irish taxes.

If the pharma companies can do it, I assume google etc. can do it.

We have been through this before just go back and read the posts from a month ago when you raised this or the month before that.

fliball123 wrote: »

Props has selective amnesia when he has been proven wrong

Not at all. The “permanent establishment” scare is put out by the revenue and the tax advisors so they won’t lose the business.

Given the existing large EU presence of these companies, any EU country could have established it pre-covid anyway if they so wished.

PropQueries wrote: »

Not at all. The “permanent establishment” scare is put out by the revenue and the tax advisors so they won’t lose the business.

Given the existing large EU presence of these companies, any EU country could have established it pre-covid anyway if they so wished.

Its not a scare its fact Ireland have allowed companies come in here paying f-all corpo tax on the narrative that it will give the country jobs meaning people paying tax here and living here.

Its the law.

https://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/money_and_tax/tax/moving_country_and_taxation/tax_residence_and_domicile_in_ireland.html#:~:text=Residence%20for%20tax%20purposes,-Your%20residence%20for&text=You%20are%20resident%20for%20tax,for%20the%20second%20tax%20year.


Not to mention the absolute nightmare for a company to sort out the logistics of someone not domicile here when it comes to pay, taxes, social insurance, etc.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/work/why-multinationals-are-calling-employees-back-to-ireland-1.4379472