Scottish independence

25-01-2021 2:18pm

fash wrote: »

It is very relevant: if the UK give me, as an Irish citizen, the right to vote for the next Queen, I would be open to supporting British voting for the next president.
The principle is reciprocity.

but we're not talking about voting for a president, so it is irrelevant.

fash wrote: »

Only if the UK introduces a written Constitution.

Nope. If people born in NI choose to remain British citizens, it is incumbent on the government of the time to provide them with parity of esteem. Not allowing them to vote in referendums would not give them parity of esteem.

fash wrote: »

So considering that the UK does not grant Irish citizens the right to make binding referendum votes, should Ireland do so?
There would be no reciprocity.

I would say if Ireland does not give British citizens the right to vote in referendums, why should the British government reciprocate?

Sam Russell wrote: »

No, that is not correct.

A vote on a referendum in Ireland is binding - we do not do non-binding referendums.

Under the GFA, a border poll IS binding if it is passed in NI AND in Ireland. If it is rejected in either side of the border, it dies for the next 7 years at least.

Before it can go to a referendum, the details regarding unification would have to be clear.

If there were to be a referendum in NI tomorrow and it clearly showed that the people of Northern Ireland wanted a unified Ireland, there is no binding obligation on the British Parliament to honour that request. It would, in effect, be a non binding referendum.

Lumen · 25-01-2021 3:04pm

Aegir wrote: »

If there were to be a referendum in NI tomorrow and it clearly showed that the people of Northern Ireland wanted a unified Ireland, there is no binding obligation on the British Parliament to honour that request. It would, in effect, be a non binding referendum.

https://www.britishirishcouncil.org/about/british-irish-agreement

British-Irish Agreement Act 1999 wrote:

The two Governments:

...

(iv) affirm that, if in the future, the people of the island of Ireland exercise their right of self-determination on the basis set out in sections (i) and (ii) above to bring about a united Ireland, it will be a binding obligation on both Governments to introduce and support in their respective Parliaments legislation to give effect to that wish;

Water John · 25-01-2021 3:11pm

dogbert27 wrote: »

I guess one of the reasons English people will not want Scotland to leave the Union is because they relate more to the Union Jack Flag and if Scotland left it would be the end of the Union Jack too.

It's more of how English relate to their Britishness and it's symbolism that will have them oppose the breaking of the Union more so than having Scotland as some sort of equal partner.

St Patrick's Cross is one third of the Union Jack, we left. Maybe it still pertains to NI?

If the UK want to hold the Union then they need to put some radical reform in place.
Similarly, if NI is asked to vote on a UI then, a radical reform of parliament in Ireland will also need to put in place.

Sam Russell · 25-01-2021 3:12pm

Aegir wrote: »

If there were to be a referendum in NI tomorrow and it clearly showed that the people of Northern Ireland wanted a unified Ireland, there is no binding obligation on the British Parliament to honour that request. It would, in effect, be a non binding referendum.

That is not correct.

Edit : I see Lumen is saying the same thing.

McGiver · 25-01-2021 3:14pm

Lumen wrote: »

It's not just a Scottish question. If Scotland goes, Britain is diminished or doomed, and Britishness is broadly as important an identity as Englishness to English people.

https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/02/14/is-it-the-english-question-or-the-british-question-the-three-strands-of-britishness/

I'd argue "British" as an identity is an artificial construct and irrelevant in England, it's only relevant to Scottish and NI Unionists.

25-01-2021 3:16pm

Lumen wrote: »

https://www.britishirishcouncil.org/about/british-irish-agreement

The government has binding obligations, but not Parliament.

Government has to put legislation to parliament to respect the result of the referendum, that dos not mean Parliament has to accept it.

There is not, nor can there be, any binding obligation on Parliament.

Sam Russell · 25-01-2021 3:27pm

Aegir wrote: »

The government has binding obligations, but not Parliament.

Government has to put legislation to parliament to respect the result of the referendum, that dos not mean Parliament has to accept it.

There is not, nor can there be, any binding obligation on Parliament.

That is pure Brexit.

International agreements are obligations on Parliament and cannot be ignored without consequences, and those will be international consequences.

Lumen · 25-01-2021 3:28pm

McGiver wrote: »

I'd argue "British" as an identity is an artificial construct and irrelevant in England, it's only relevant to Scottish and NI Unionists.

Irrelevant how? That poll shows that English people feel British and English in roughly equal amounts. Why are you discounting that?

Sam Russell · 25-01-2021 3:34pm

Lumen wrote: »

Irrelevant how? That poll shows that English people feel British and English in roughly equal amounts. Why are you discounting that?

I think to most English people the term English = British = English. There is no distinction, and generally both terms are interchangeable. They see no difference. However Scots do not like to be referred to as English.

Globally, that is much the same in many countries.

It is quite common for non-Dutch people to equate Holland with the Netherlands, but you will not find many Dutch people that do that. Many English people refer to Ireland as Southern Ireland or Eire - neither of which is acceptable, but there you go. Canadians do not like to be called Americans, and so on.

25-01-2021 3:36pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

That is pure Brexit.

International agreements are obligations on Parliament and cannot be ignored without consequences, and those will be international consequences.

what's that supposed to mean, pure Brexit?

if there was a referendum in NI tomorrow and the results where overwhelmingly in favour of a unified Ireland, there is no obligation on the Oireachtas to go ahead with it, only that the Irish government would have to put forward and support relevant legislation.

25-01-2021 3:37pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think to most English Irish people the term English = British = English. There is no distinction, and generally both terms are interchangeable. They see no difference. However Scots do not like to be referred to as English

fixed that for you.

Lumen · 25-01-2021 3:42pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think to most English people the term English = British = English. There is no distinction, and generally both terms are interchangeable. They see no difference. However Scots do not like to be referred to as English.

That's a false comparison, because English are both English and British, whereas Scots are Scottish and British, not Scottish and English.

The argument might hold water were it not for the poll result quoted above which showed that about half of English people do not want the Scots to leave. That doesn't mean they will oppose it, just that they value, in some way, being part of a union including the Scots, and presumably the Welsh.

I would guess they don't feel the same way about NI, for obvious reasons. Unfortunately, from an English perspective, the nordies haven't found the door yet, but it is very much open. :pac:

Sam Russell · 25-01-2021 3:43pm

Aegir wrote: »

what's that supposed to mean, pure Brexit?

if there was a referendum in NI tomorrow and the results where overwhelmingly in favour of a unified Ireland, there is no obligation on the Oireachtas to go ahead with it, only that the Irish government would have to put forward and support relevant legislation.

If there was a referendum in NI, and it was in favour of a United Ireland, then there would also have been one in Ireland on the same issue. If it was also carried in Ireland, then it would be in the constitution - end of. Legislation would follow.

Sam Russell · 25-01-2021 3:45pm

Aegir wrote: »

what's that supposed to mean, pure Brexit?

if there was a referendum in NI tomorrow and the results where overwhelmingly in favour of a unified Ireland, there is no obligation on the Oireachtas to go ahead with it, only that the Irish government would have to put forward and support relevant legislation.

Just look at the Single Market Bill that broke International law, only it got scrapped - well the bit that broke international law. Pure Brexit - huff and puff.

25-01-2021 3:46pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

If there was a referendum in NI, and it was in favour of a United Ireland, then there would also have been one in Ireland on the same issue. If it was also carried in Ireland, then it would be in the constitution - end of. Legislation would follow.

Would there?

and how would that referendum take place?

25-01-2021 3:47pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Just look at the Single Market Bill that broke International law, only it got scrapped - well the bit that broke international law. Pure Brexit - huff and puff.

and which bit of International law would be broken?

Sam Russell · 25-01-2021 3:47pm

Aegir wrote: »

Would there?

and how would that referendum take place?

Same as the one on the GFA.

25-01-2021 3:49pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Same as the one on the GFA.

So the way every referendum is held in Ireland, by approval of the Oreachtas?

fash · 25-01-2021 5:00pm

Aegir wrote: »

but we're not talking about voting for a president, so it is irrelevant.

yes we are - I've just written 3 posts on the point and you've responded twice - aside from the fact that it reflects the same principle: no reciprocity, no votes for the British.

I would say if Ireland does not give British citizens the right to vote in referendums, why should the British government reciprocate?

Ireland does allow UK citizens to vote in referendums - but only the non-binding constitutionally meaningless ones - i.e. the same as those to which Irish citizens are entitled to in the UK.

If there were to be a referendum in NI tomorrow and it clearly showed that the people of Northern Ireland wanted a unified Ireland, there is no binding obligation on the British Parliament to honour that request. It would, in effect, be a non binding referendum.

Domestically potentially, ( I'm not sure what the current legislation in relation thereto is) - in international it would of course be illegal.

PommieBast · 25-01-2021 5:03pm

fash wrote: »

Ireland does allow UK citizens to vote in referendums - but only the non-binding constitutionally meaningless ones - i.e. the same as those to which Irish citizens are entitled to in the UK.

Has Ireland actually ever held one?

25-01-2021 5:14pm

fash wrote: »

Domestically potentially, ( I'm not sure what the current legislation in relation thereto is) - in international it would of course be illegal.

Why would it be illegal if the government has fulfilled its obligations under the agreement?

And can you point to this "International" you talk of?

25-01-2021 5:15pm

PommieBast wrote: »

Has Ireland actually ever held one?

No, they haven't but if they did, British citizens would still not be able to vote in them

L1011 · 25-01-2021 5:17pm

PommieBast wrote: »

Has Ireland actually ever held one?

The referendum to adopt the Constitution was theoretically a non-binding plebiscite.

We've had a substantial number of regional ones that are generally acted on - usually about really minor things like spellings of town names.

Water John · 25-01-2021 5:19pm

We rely on polling and use a Citizens Assembly to invite public discussion on specific issues. UK would have been well served early on if they too used the format of a CA to open a full discussion on EU membership, instead they handed the stage to Farage.

fash · 25-01-2021 5:37pm

Aegir wrote: »

and which bit of International law would be broken?

Both the Vienna convention and customary international law:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_the_Law_of_Treaties

25-01-2021 5:42pm

fash wrote: »

Both the Vienna convention and customary international law:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vienna_Convention_on_the_Law_of_Treaties

which bit?

What treaty would have been broken?

fash · 25-01-2021 5:43pm

Aegir wrote: »

Why would it be illegal if the government has fulfilled its obligations under the agreement?

It failed to comply with its obligations under the withdrawal agreement - specifically article 5 on good faith:
"They shall take all appropriate measures, whether general or particular, to ensure fulfilment of the obligations arising from this Agreement and shall refrain from any measures which could jeopardise the attainment of the objectives of this Agreement."

And can you point to this "International" you talk of?

Just did: Vienna convention, international customary law etc. Ask the Brits about it - they committed many atrocities and other acts of war on this basis.

fash · 25-01-2021 5:48pm

Aegir wrote: »

which bit?

Vienna convention:
Article 26
Pacta sunt servanda

Every treaty in force is binding upon the parties to it and must be performed by them in good faith.

Customary international law principle: "pacta sunt servanda"

What treaty would have been broken?

The withdrawal agreement - which is a breach of the Vienna convention.

25-01-2021 5:49pm

fash wrote: »

It failed to comply with its obligations under the withdrawal agreement - specifically article 5 on good faith:
"They shall take all appropriate measures, whether general or particular, to ensure fulfilment of the obligations arising from this Agreement and shall refrain from any measures which could jeopardise the attainment of the objectives of this Agreement."

Just did: Vienna convention, international customary law etc. Ask the Brits about it - they committed many atrocities and other acts of war on this basis.

you really are all over the place now

Water John · 25-01-2021 5:51pm

Good art by Martin Kettle, Guardian on the late realisation by the Tories that the break up risk needs a new strategy:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/jan/25/johnson-last-minute-bid-save-union-neglect-scotland-independence

Scottish independence

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