Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII Read OP For Mod Warnings

24-01-2021 12:15AM

Windmill100000 wrote: »

Oh please, be honest. You expected (and no doubt hoped) they would agree with you that all children are being harmed as a result of being out of school during lockdown. I'd go so far as to say you were quite put out you weren't backed up.

I never jumped on you, I am too respectful for that. And exactly what do you mean by shouting? Would that not mean using caps because I don't think anyone on here has done that. You came on here telling people to go and rock up at hospitals because they are empty based on your experience and asking an A&E doctor.

A look at daily hospital numbers showed the vast majority of hospitals were 80-90% full. A few were at capacity.

Do you think people should not question you? Do you think you should have free reign to say whatever you like and not be pulled up on it?

If you are going to come on her and make ill-informed statements, you should expect to be pulled up on them. Just like everyone else.

You’re very salty when it comes to hospitals. I assume because you work in one.

Go to Connolly A+E if you really want to.

You constantly argue points that I haven’t made... It’s beyond bizarre at this point.

FintanMcluskey · 24-01-2021 12:21AM

Deleted User wrote: »

You constantly argue points that I haven’t made... It’s beyond bizarre at this point.

It’s a reoccurring theme here among with those who get personally offended by posters who question the cost effectiveness of restrictions.

Common sense doesn’t always prevail

Windmill100000 · 24-01-2021 12:35AM

Deleted User wrote: »

You’re very salty when it comes to hospitals. I assume because you work in one.

Go to Connolly A+E if you really want to.

You constantly argue points that I haven’t made... It’s beyond bizarre at this point.

I have no idea what salty means, but you've said it before about people that pull you up so am happy to be called that.

A lot of the statements you have made about hospitals are at best ill-informed and at worst lies. The not wearing masks and implying you were able to freely wander around two hospitals during the pandemic being two particularly bad ones.

And finally, calling it bizarre when someone pulls you up on things is a cop out. It's also very childish.

As they say, if you can't take the heat...

Arghus · 24-01-2021 12:48AM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

It’s a reoccurring theme here among with those who get personally offended by posters who question the cost effectiveness of restrictions.

Common sense doesn’t always prevail

Restrictions and lockdowns come at an enormous cost, financially, socially - you name it. I've been a longtime advocate for the need of them, but I'd never argue that they don't come with a terrible cost. Evidently, they do.

But, seriously and honestly, what are our plausible alternatives?

I've never once in ten months heard a plausible and alternative strategy articulated.

And I'm not trying to rise you by saying this, I'd love to be introduced to something that would make me question my belief that restrictions are necessary - because restrictions are terrible, but, unfortunately, as I see it, we don't have much choice.

Lundstram · 24-01-2021 01:19AM

Arghus wrote: »

Restrictions and lockdowns come at an enormous cost, financially, socially - you name it. I've been a longtime advocate for the need of them, but I'd never argue that they don't come with a terrible cost. Evidently, they do.

But, seriously and honestly, what are our plausible alternatives?

I've never once in ten months heard a plausible and alternative strategy articulated.

And I'm not trying to rise you by saying this, I'd love to be introduced to something that would make me question my belief that restrictions are necessary - because restrictions are terrible, but, unfortunately, as I see it, we don't have much choice.

Here's a question for you. Why were we severly restricted last summer while we had 5-50 cases and 16 whole days without a death, and loads more days with 1 and 2 deaths?

Yesterday MM said we need to get down to 100-200 cases for restrictions to be eased. Massive difference there.

Obvously now restrictions are needed, I don't think anyone is arguing against that. But they are still too severe.

All the while we have people streaming through our airports undetected once they leave it. That's mental stuff. It's no wonder people want to question things. Should we just bow down to King Tony and say nothing?

The plausible alternative is balance, it seems Covid19 is all that matters now. Destroying the fabric of society and leave them with a massive bill once things get better.

There's no one asking for 2019 levels of normailty to resume, nobody, so less of the dramatics.

franciscanpunk · 24-01-2021 01:20AM

Windmill100000 wrote: »

Again, do your research. Banks are supporting people having problems paying mortgages. Bank of Ireland has just extended its 3 month freeze for another three months or offering other payment plans. I would imagine banks across the board are doing similar. The baseless doom and gloom is off the charts on here today.

You can negotiate a payment break with the bank, as you always could have but the break will now be classified as forbearance and on your credit history so ability for future borrowings affected(the 2 x 3 months breaks last year were not classed as forbearance). A payment doesnt mean much anyway, interest just keeps billing you will owe more at the end of the break tham you did when started and have less of a term to pay it back so unless yoi can afford the payment break increases you arw going to need to restructure, and what do you know, more coat of credit and more credit rating impact.

Rent arrears tbf, you can just not pay them for years in this country and not be evicted but i doubt that is a route the hard working retail, hosoitality, travel, airline, construction, etc staff want to go. Most people just want to work hard and pay their way.

I accept the restrictions now are neccessary(though what the hell we were at last summer closing places with no cases is was shamefull(. What drives me mental is is the argument that peoole who have lost their jobs businesses have options. They have little or no options. For many thier lives are runied. It is just how it is, I wish we would stop calling peoole out for supposed doom and gloom mentality. if you lose your business or job is affected for 10 months plus who knows how many more thats all there is, doom and gloom, and mortgage interest and plans ruined and more bills to worry about and education fees and car insurance you know pay more as pay monthly direct debit and 3 months car tax for cash flow even though it will cost more and stress and worry and general f$$king bleakness.

24-01-2021 01:22AM

Windmill100000 wrote: »

I have no idea what salty means, but you've said it before about people that pull you up so am happy to be called that.

A lot of the statements you have made about hospitals are at best ill-informed and at worst lies. The not wearing masks and implying you were able to freely wander around two hospitals during the pandemic being two particularly bad ones.

And finally, calling it bizarre when someone pulls you up on things is a cop out. It's also very childish.

As they say, if you can't take the heat...

Nothing about my personal experiences was ill informed or lies.

acequion · 24-01-2021 01:27AM

Arghus wrote: »

Restrictions and lockdowns come at an enormous cost, financially, socially - you name it. I've been a longtime advocate for the need of them, but I'd never argue that they don't come with a terrible cost. Evidently, they do.

But, seriously and honestly, what are our plausible alternatives?

I've never once in ten months heard a plausible and alternative strategy articulated.

And I'm not trying to rise you by saying this, I'd love to be introduced to something that would make me question my belief that restrictions are necessary - because restrictions are terrible, but, unfortunately, as I see it, we don't have much choice.

But you've surely heard people suggest more targeted approaches as an alternative to constant blanket lockdowns?

I'm not disputing that we're probably out of options at the moment because the situation has worsened so much. But I don't think we needed to be so cautious for so much of the last 10 months. More could have opened up and opened up more quickly last summer. The 22nd Oct blanket level 5 was unnecessarily harsh. At that time there were parts of the country with very low numbers which would have been fine on level 3. All over Europe they tried out localised restrictions, curfews, partial closures and given what has happened here recently how can we look smugly over at our European neighbours and boast that we've done better. Because we haven't. We've actually done worse for all our efforts.

And the problem is that people are seriously worn out at this stage as here in Ireland we never really got a break. And the prospect of months more really is unbearable. Personally I'm someone with robust mental health but I am seriously anxious this weekend. If the Govt were overcautious before god only knows how bad they'll be now and MM said as much today. Ironically they're being blamed for being too lax leading up to xmas and no way will they repeat that mistake.

So going forward I really don't know. But one thing I'm sure of is that this dreadful Govt that we're stuck with will get nothing right but they'll keep tightening the noose and blaming the people. And the disconnect between them and the people will get wider. Because there really are loads of people out there not bothering any more. A lot of people are not afraid any more when there is now perhaps more reason to fear. No leadership, no imagination and no end in sight. It really is very depressing and our only hope to cling to is the vaccines.

24-01-2021 01:33AM

Arghus wrote: »

Restrictions and lockdowns come at an enormous cost, financially, socially - you name it. I've been a longtime advocate for the need of them, but I'd never argue that they don't come with a terrible cost. Evidently, they do.

But, seriously and honestly, what are our plausible alternatives?

I've never once in ten months heard a plausible and alternative strategy articulated.

And I'm not trying to rise you by saying this, I'd love to be introduced to something that would make me question my belief that restrictions are necessary - because restrictions are terrible, but, unfortunately, as I see it, we don't have much choice.

Almost 100M known cases and just 2M deaths.
Now we have vaccines as well.
Jab the elders and on we go.

If the death rate gets lower with vaccines we can downgrade this from mild to extremely mild.

Arghus · 24-01-2021 01:47AM

Lundstram wrote: »

Here's a question for you. Why were we severly restricted last summer while we had 5-50 cases and 16 whole days without a death, and loads more days with 1 and 2 deaths?

There's some argument to say that we were too restricted during the Summer while cases were quite low. But then again were we severely restricted? We were restricted, certainly, but severely?That can be debated.

I went to restaurants, I had drinks, was able to go to the cinema, meet friends and family, travel the country, I could have travelled abroad if I wished too. Was there certain things I couldn't do? Yes, absolutely, but equally there was a lot I could do.

Were we too cautious, perhaps, but, equally, were we trying to feel our way out of an unprecedented and frightening period of time, where so much was uncertain? That has to be taken into account.

Yesterday MM said we need to get down to 100-200 cases for restrictions to be eased. Massive difference there.

Obvously now restrictions are needed, I don't think anyone is arguing against that. But they are still too severe.

In what way are they too severe?

All the while we have people streaming through our airports undetected once they leave it. That's mental stuff. It's no wonder people want to question things. Should we just bow down to King Tony and say nothing?

NPHET have been blue in the face warning about the danger of the importation of cases from abroad. King Tony, as you call him, has repeatedly warned the government that our measures to prevent cases being brought in from outside are not robust enough. This is on record, but the government have not taken this anywhere near seriously enough and it never has. I fully agree with you that more needs to be done - and so do NPHET! You are blaming the wrong man here.

The plausible alternative is balance, it seems Covid19 is all that matters now. Destroying the fabric of society and leave them with a massive bill once things get better.

How do we find this balance? We all want balance. But simply stating that isn't outlining a plausible alternative.

There's no one asking for 2019 levels of normailty to resume, nobody, so less of the dramatics.

I don't think I was overly dramatic in my above post. I put a straight question to people, that's it. The most emotive part of what I said was referring to the terrible cost of restrictions - something you agree with yourself.

dalyboy · 24-01-2021 01:53AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Almost 100M known cases and just 2M deaths.
Now we have vaccines as well.
Jab the elders and on we go.

If the death rate gets lower with vaccines we can downgrade this from mild to extremely mild.

Added to the vaccine distribution will undoubtedly coincide with a repeat of summer 2020 with SFA cases anyways (seasonality)

Totally agree with the bold part of your post. The only reason that we don’t get back to normal will be if a particular cohort WANT this nightmare to continue. Media , Zero covid loons, looney left , PBF , PUP , happy WFM people etc. Just hope they get droned out by actual industrial and societal push by April/May

Arghus · 24-01-2021 01:57AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Almost 100M known cases and just 2M deaths.
Now we have vaccines as well.
Jab the elders and on we go.

If the death rate gets lower with vaccines we can downgrade this from mild to extremely mild.

Jabbing the elders and all other vulnerable people is still going to take months. And that's being optimistic, by assuming there isn't going to be further delays with vaccine availability.

acequion · 24-01-2021 01:57AM

dalyboy wrote: »

Added to the vaccine distribution will undoubtedly coincide with a repeat of summer 2020 with SFA cases anyways (seasonality)

Totally agree with the bold part of your post. The only reason that we don’t get back to normal will be if a particular cohort WANT this nightmare to continue. Media , Zero covid loons, looney left , PBF , PUP , happy WFM people etc. Just hope they get droned out by actual industrial and societal push by April/May

Do you really think that the Irish will ever try to claim back their freedom? I honestly don't think we have the guts to really stand up for ourselves. We whinge away constantly but we seem incapable of ever doing more, unlike other nations.

FintanMcluskey · 24-01-2021 02:10AM

acequion wrote: »

Do you really think that the Irish will ever try to claim back their freedom? I honestly don't think we have the guts to really stand up for ourselves. We whinge away constantly but we seem incapable of ever doing more, unlike other nations.

Make no mistake, the Irish are perhaps the best at following the instructions of authority without question.

I regularly see posters suggest the Irish can’t be trusted and are little short of lawless drunks. The only thing I’ll say to that is that those who suggest such have never left Ireland or worked abroad.

acequion · 24-01-2021 02:14AM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

Make no mistake, the Irish are perhaps the best at following the instructions of authority without question.

I regularly see posters suggest the Irish can’t be trusted and are little short of lawless drunks. The only thing I’ll say to that is that those who suggest such have never left Ireland or worked abroad.

Totally agree. The traditional stereotype of the Irish is really ridiculous in 2021. You may as well be talking about another species.

The Irish are law abiding and obedient to the point of obsequiousness. It might be a virtue to respect authority but a vice to respect it blindly.

And that, unfortunately, is the problem here.

franciscanpunk · 24-01-2021 02:17AM

I do hope one thing is learned from this awful period of high deaths is that the health service didnt collapse at 8k cases per day and where they really struggled is staff off with covid or close contacts not the amount of patients coming, now when they, all HSE staff, are vaccinated we know that hospitals shouldnt be under the same pressure and should not be as much of a factor when deciding on the level of restrictions needed.

I also think, most people will be accepting of the speed on the roll back of restrictions but less accepting of any further restrictions being appliee at any stage. To me, this means unfortunately easing of restrictions will be slower than before and it will long year.

Hopefully the North get back up running to a normal life with a high pace rollout of the AZ vaccine

FintanMcluskey · 24-01-2021 02:23AM

acequion wrote: »

Totally agree. The traditional stereotype of the Irish is really ridiculous in 2021. You may as well be talking about another species.

The Irish are law abiding and obedient to the point of obsequiousness. It might be a virtue to respect authority but a vice to respect it blindly.

And that, unfortunately, is the problem here.

What also is rather amusing is that we have followed the ball we were thrown.

Community transmission/lockdown/flatten the curve/ fines in the forest

All that deflects from the fact a significant number of cases come from hospitals themselves, care homes and nursing homes.

I struggle to see the correlation between community and those settings.

Let’s not ask those questions though for fear of causing offence

HCWs have more questions to answer than any teachers IMO

Lundstram · 24-01-2021 02:24AM

Arghus wrote: »

There's some argument to say that we were too restricted during the Summer while cases were quite low. But then again were we severely restricted? We were restricted, certainly, but severely?That can be debated.

I went to restaurants, I had drinks, was able to go to the cinema, meet friends and family, travel the country, I could have travelled abroad if I wished too. Was there certain things I couldn't do? Yes, absolutely, but equally there was a lot I could do.

Were we too cautious, perhaps, but, equally, were we trying to feel our way out of an unprecedented and frightening period of time, where so much was uncertain? That has to be taken into account.

In what way are they too severe?

NPHET have been blue in the face warning about the danger of the importation of cases from abroad. King Tony, as you call him, has repeatedly warned the government that our measures to prevent cases being brought in from outside are not robust enough. This is on record, but the government have not taken this anywhere near seriously enough and it never has. I fully agree with you that more needs to be done - and so do NPHET! You are blaming the wrong man here.

How do we find this balance? We all want balance. But simply stating that isn't outlining a plausible alternative.

I don't think I was overly dramatic in my above post. I put a straight question to people, that's it. The most emotive part of what I said was referring to the terrible cost of restrictions - something you agree with yourself.

Well I’m in Kildare and we suffered lockdown for a month longer than the rest of Ireland in the summer. Felt like the situation we are in now yet cases and deaths were nowhere near as high, it was preventative but came at a huge cost. No cinema or drinks for 250k people. Couldn’t leave the county either. Again, sledgehammer to break a nut approach.

5km is too restrictive, bring back the cross county thing. Much more feasible. Let people go to their local beach, mountain or forest. Instead we have Gardai handing out fines for it. That’s just plain wrong.

Let some school kids back. Why are children with learning disabilities back in the UK, France, Germany etc but not in Ireland?

Closing hairdressers and barbers? They were a credit to themselves when they opened. I always think of them when I hear a teacher moaning.

Worst of all for me was having schools open but colleges were not allowed above 20% capacity. Where’s the sense in that?

Wet pubs were never even given a chance to prove themselves.

Our total disinterest in aligning things with NI is shameful. There was no effort beyond the usual guff to the media.

The disproportionate response is what annoys me. We are acting as if 500k people have been wiped out by this virus.

We were and still are being fooled into thinking hospitals resemble a WW1 epic.

Hysteria galore.

Qwertyminger · 24-01-2021 02:29AM

Lundstram wrote: »

Let some school kids back. Why are children with learning disabilities back in the UK, France, Germany etc but not in Ireland?

Because we had the highest 14 day incidence in Europe.

Lundstram · 24-01-2021 02:32AM

Qwertyminger wrote: »

Because we had the highest 14 day incidence in Europe.

Strange. We were the lowest at one point a few weeks ago yet were among the most restricted in Europe.

You see where I’m coming from?

Zero balance.

FintanMcluskey · 24-01-2021 02:33AM

Qwertyminger wrote: »

Because we had the highest 14 day incidence in Europe.

In spite of having Europe’s longest lockdown??

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/ireland-had-longest-lockdown-for-pubs-and-restaurants-in-europe-report-1.4414028%3fmode=amp

Ireland’s first lockdown was by far the longest in Europe for bars, restaurants, cinemas and non-essential shops, according to a new report.

That’s before lockdown 2 in October

We need to get human behavioural experts advice here, it’s been a catastrophe

Ireland was also one of only six countries of the 36 to close both primary and secondary schools until the summer holidays, the others being Bulgaria, Finland, Italy, Spain and Latvia.

Ireland had the second highest level of expenditure on health spending as a result of Covid-19 at €274 per capita followed by Germany (€302) and the United Kingdom (€446) but the Irish figures were only up to May 12th.

Deaths in Ireland among the over-65s were the third highest in Europe relative to population. The rate to early October in Ireland was 2,359 deaths per million. Only Belgium and England/Wales had higher rates of deaths.

I hope the inquest in the mismanagement of Covid in Europe’s youngest country, (Ireland) is swift and brutal

We will ignore Sweden of course, who protected its vulnerable much better than Ireland

Qwertyminger · 24-01-2021 02:36AM

Maybe we had the highest incidence because of the lenient restrictions during Christmas and the message that sent to the public.

Also 190,000 flew in to the country between 1 Dec and 11 Jan.

Arghus · 24-01-2021 02:42AM

acequion wrote: »

But you've surely heard people suggest more targeted approaches as an alternative to constant blanket lockdowns?

I'm not disputing that we're probably out of options at the moment because the situation has worsened so much. But I don't think we needed to be so cautious for so much of the last 10 months. More could have opened up and opened up more quickly last summer. The 22nd Oct blanket level 5 was unnecessarily harsh. At that time there were parts of the country with very low numbers which would have been fine on level 3. All over Europe they tried out localised restrictions, curfews, partial closures and given what has happened here recently how can we look smugly over at our European neighbours and boast that we've done better. Because we haven't. We've actually done worse for all our efforts.

And the problem is that people are seriously worn out at this stage as here in Ireland we never really got a break. And the prospect of months more really is unbearable. Personally I'm someone with robust mental health but I am seriously anxious this weekend. If the Govt were overcautious before god only knows how bad they'll be now and MM said as much today. Ironically they're being blamed for being too lax leading up to xmas and no way will they repeat that mistake.

So going forward I really don't know. But one thing I'm sure of is that this dreadful Govt that we're stuck with will get nothing right but they'll keep tightening the noose and blaming the people. And the disconnect between them and the people will get wider. Because there really are loads of people out there not bothering any more. A lot of people are not afraid any more when there is now perhaps more reason to fear. No leadership, no imagination and no end in sight. It really is very depressing and our only hope to cling to is the vaccines.

People have suggested more targeted approaches. And we have used that on a few occasions - Donegal, Dublin, Laois, Offaly, Kildare - but it hasn't been shown to change the picture on a national level when the problem becomes a national one.

And other countries - The UK, Germany, France - have tried a more targeted region based approach - which they've subsequently had to abandon as the situation deteriorated.

Targeted approaches as opposed to blanket lockdowns are great in theory, but in practice are difficult when the situation worsens beyond a certain point.

I respectfully disagree that the level 5 in October was unnecessary. There was clear exponential growth occurring, in Dublin and elsewhere.

There were some counties where numbers were lower and perhaps level 3 may have been sufficient. But we don't know that - we only know what happened after level 5 measures took effect. It's not a guarantee that things would have worked out as they did if those counties had been left as they were.

And it's far from conclusive, even now, that level three is actually effective in containing the disease. For instance Dublin's numbers did not decline despite being put in level three for a period before the rest of the country.

And time is also of the essence when you are dealing with this. It took just over a month to go from just over 300 cases to 6000. Things can get out of control rapidly. The luxury of trying an approach and just seeing how it'll hopefully work out isn't one that we have.

I agree that we can't look smugly on at our European neighbours, but our mistake wasn't lockdown. Going to lockdown in October/November was exactly what spared us while the rest of Europe initially went to sh!t - our mistake was taking our foot off the gas - way off the gas - far too early. All around the continent countries were tightening measures, while we were loosening up! And that's why we are where we are.

I understand that people are fatigued, pissed off and worn out. But unfortunately the disease spreads by social contact and interaction and the more of it you have, the more disease you have. And the more disease there is the more absolutely difficult life becomes on a societal level. Normality can't return until you get it under control and people who don't or can't acknowledge this - I'm not accusing you of being one btw - are quite simply not living in the real world.

Arghus · 24-01-2021 02:52AM

Lundstram wrote: »

Strange. We were the lowest at one point a few weeks ago yet were among the most restricted in Europe.

You see where I’m coming from?

Zero balance.

Our incidence was the lowest at that time as a result of being the most restricted in Europe.

Not despite of it, because of it.

Lundstram · 24-01-2021 02:59AM

Arghus wrote: »

Our incidence was the lowest at that time as a result of being the most restricted in Europe.

Not despite of it, because of it.

In turn that led to people throwing off the shackles when restrictions eased in December thus making us the highest in the world at one point.

Again balance was needed here.

One extreme to the other. No wonder people are pissed off.

froog · 24-01-2021 03:01AM

Lundstram wrote: »

Here's a question for you. Why were we severly restricted last summer while we had 5-50 cases and 16 whole days without a death, and loads more days with 1 and 2 deaths?

We weren't.

Arghus · 24-01-2021 03:03AM

FintanMcluskey wrote: »

In spite of having Europe’s longest lockdown?

When we exited lockdown we had Europe’s lowest incidence.

When we exited the month or so of relative "normality" we had Europe's highest incidence.

I don't know why you keep repeating this argument that numbers were like that when we left lockdown? That's not true. They weren't, they were the exact opposite.

It was what happened in the month afterwards that led to the explosion in cases.

Lundstram · 24-01-2021 03:07AM

Arghus wrote: »

When we exited lockdown we had Europe’s lowest incidence.

When we exited the month or so of relative "normality" we had Europe's highest incidence.

I don't know why you keep repeating this argument that numbers were like that when we left lockdown? That's not true. They weren't, they were the exact opposite.

It was what happened in the month afterwards that led to the explosion in cases.

The explosion happened because people took a mile when given an inch because they were severely restricted for so long. In comparison to most EU countries, Ireland was and still is more cautious and heavy handed with restrictions. That’s a fact. Actually seeing it in person myself in Portugal and the UK really opened my eyes.

We are a nation obsessed with this virus.

franciscanpunk · 24-01-2021 03:09AM

I think i could accept almost any level of restrictions as long as it was to match to something tangible and a reasonable limit of the so called living with covid levels once they were not a mix and match from different levels i.e level 5 to remain unless all 3 criteria met. below x% positivity rate, x estimated r0 number and another measurable factor regarding hospital capacity. Level can increase in line with measurable and realistic metrics

Arghus · 24-01-2021 03:12AM

Lundstram wrote: »

The explosion happened because people took a mile when given an inch because they were severely restricted for so long. In comparison to most EU countries, Ireland was and still is more cautious and heavy handed with restrictions. That’s a fact. Actually seeing it in person myself in Portugal and the UK really opened my eyes.

We are a nation obsessed with this virus.

It's also a fact that we have far less people dead per capita from this than the two countries you've mentioned.

Approaching 100k dead in The UK now. And their news is absolutely full of it every night, same as ours.

Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII *Read OP For Mod Warnings*

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Relaxation of Restrictions, Part VIII Read OP For Mod Warnings