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EV for very low mileage

  • 23-01-2021 4:24pm
    #1
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭


    Is an EV an uneconomical idea for a very low mileage driver? My mums Micra is coming to end of life but she only does about 5000km a year even without Covid restrictions.
    Would an EV pay off or are we better stricking with petrol? Would be a used car either way


Comments

  • #2
    Atlantic Dawn
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 83,419 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    Are you thinking brand new or used? Your estimate suggests a usage of just under 100km a week, she would get away with around 1.5 charges a week on the first generation LEAF for this level of use so she certainly would fall in to the criteria where it would be an option.


  • #3
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Atlantic Dawn wrote: »
    Are you thinking brand new or used? Your estimate suggests a usage of just under 100km a week, she would get away with around 1.5 charges a week on the first generation LEAF for this level of use so she certainly would fall in to the criteria where it would be an option.

    Very likely used. It’s a second car so hard to justify 25k on a new leaf.
    My only thing about the 1st gen leaf is it’s a type 1 charger. But maybe that just means getting an unthethered socket


  • #4
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,059 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    What type of budget is she looking at, 2016 Zoe's are around €1,000 more than a similar Clio. They have the advantage of access to 22kW AC chargers meaning she'd basically only ever need to charge for 1hr if she was ever away from home.

    With low mileage she probably wouldn't break even on fuel alone, but if she was keeping the car for a while the engine maintenance would probably cover the difference.


  • #5
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    liamog wrote: »
    What type of budget is she looking at, 2016 Zoe's are around €1,000 more than a similar Clio. They have the advantage of access to 22kW AC chargers meaning she'd basically only ever need to charge for 1hr if she was ever away from home.

    With low mileage she probably wouldn't break even on fuel alone, but if she was keeping the car for a while the engine maintenance would probably cover the difference.

    Wouldn’t be new for sure. I’ve been sort of looking around 2015/2016. I think anything newer than that would financially be pushing it.


  • #6
    Sabre Man
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,029 ✭✭✭Sabre Man


    Can she install a home charger? How far would she drive?

    Another advantage with an EV is not having to deal with gear shifts, which may be an issue depending on her competency and age.


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  • #7
    RandomViewer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    For all the miles she's doing you are looking at a tenner a week in fuel and a service every 2 years, a newer model Micra or similar would probably make as much sense


  • #8
    RandomViewer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Sabre Man wrote: »
    Can she install a home charger? How far would she drive?

    Another advantage with an EV is not having to deal with gear shifts, which may be an issue depending on her competency and age.

    If you are having trouble with gears surely a charging cable will pose similar problems


  • #9
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    RandomViewer wrote: »
    If you are having trouble with gears surely a charging cable will pose similar problems

    Toyota Prius or similar might be a good choice for these needs.


  • #10
    fricatus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    RandomViewer wrote: »
    If you are having trouble with gears surely a charging cable will pose similar problems

    That’s a ridiculous thing to say. How hard do you think it is to plug a car in? Anyway, given the mileage quoted, she’d only have to plug it in one day and unplug it the next day, once a week.

    Clutches and gears are a different thing entirely, since you change gears several times during every single journey. If you’ve a dodgy knee, that can add up, plus you’re doing it while steering, going around roundabouts, etc. That cognitive load can push at the limits for older drivers, and having a single “go” pedal can extend an older person’s driving life considerably.


  • #11
    punisher5112
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,644 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Honda jazz hybrid or Yaris hybrid....

    Even an ordinary petrol would do her.


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  • #12
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Sabre Man wrote: »
    Can she install a home charger? How far would she drive?

    Another advantage with an EV is not having to deal with gear shifts, which may be an issue depending on her competency and age.

    Charge can be installed yes. She’s mid 50s so gears not yet an issue. Longest journey would be about 60km round trip. Looking at the financial side of it the extra cost of the car is becoming an issue. I know it pays off but the monthly loan payment is significantly more


  • #13
    punisher5112
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,644 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    Gael23 wrote: »
    Charge can be installed yes. She’s mid 50s so gears not yet an issue. Longest journey would be about 60km round trip. Looking at the financial side of it the extra cost of the car is becoming an issue. I know it pays off but the monthly loan payment is significantly more

    Hybrid and ev are all auto now.
    Some older hybrid were manual.


  • #14
    RandomViewer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    fricatus wrote: »
    That’s a ridiculous thing to say. How hard do you think it is to plug a car in? Anyway, given the mileage quoted, she’d only have to plug it in one day and unplug it the next day, once a week.

    Clutches and gears are a different thing entirely, since you change gears several times during every single journey. If you’ve a dodgy knee, that can add up, plus you’re doing it while steering, going around roundabouts, etc. That cognitive load can push at the limits for older drivers, and having a single “go” pedal can extend an older person’s driving life considerably.
    My point still stands, hooking up a charge cable for someone with likely arthritis is going to be an issue, an ordinary automatic car would get rid of both the gears and charge cable issue


  • #15
    punisher5112
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,644 ✭✭✭✭punisher5112


    RandomViewer wrote: »
    My point still stands, hooking up a charge cable for someone with likely arthritis is going to be an issue, an ordinary automatic car would get rid of both the gears and charge cable issue

    If they can't plug something like a charge point then maybe driving a car wouldn't be safe.


  • #16
    fricatus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,081 ✭✭✭fricatus


    RandomViewer wrote: »
    My point still stands, hooking up a charge cable for someone with likely arthritis is going to be an issue.

    No seriously, have you ever plugged a charging cable into a car? I agree arthritis can be life-limiting, but if you have difficulty plugging in, then you’re going to have trouble opening the car door, or picking up a petrol pump. Everyday things like opening a carton of milk or filling the kettle for tea might be beyond you.

    If things are that severe, then you would need a carer for everyday tasks and you wouldn’t be driving.


  • #17
    RandomViewer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    fricatus wrote: »
    No seriously, have you ever plugged a charging cable into a car? I agree arthritis can be life-limiting, but if you have difficulty plugging in, then you’re going to have trouble opening the car door, or picking up a petrol pump. Everyday things like opening a carton of milk or filling the kettle for tea might be beyond you.

    If things are that severe, then you would need a carer for everyday tasks and you wouldn’t be driving.

    Old people rarely fill their own fuel, they'll actually travel to a forecourt with a pump attendant, EVs dont suit everyone, pushing people into them because theres a sales target is no better than a pyramid scheme


  • #18
    loopymum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,240 ✭✭✭loopymum


    I would hardly call mid 50s old to be fair.

    There was a program a few years ago about old age pensioners and one of them was driving a leaf and he was 100.
    Might be this guy

    Honestly the leaf is the easiet car to drive


  • #19
    Lantus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,027 ✭✭✭Lantus


    You need to specify a budget.

    If the longest journey is short then first gen leaf could be a runner for 10k ish.

    But as her fuel bill is 450 a year a small auto petrol could be a great idea. Yaris or micra.


  • #20
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Lantus wrote: »
    You need to specify a budget.

    If the longest journey is short then first gen leaf could be a runner for 10k ish.

    But as her fuel bill is 450 a year a small auto petrol could be a great idea. Yaris or micra.

    Automatic is not essential but I’m aware all EVs are automatic. Anything more than 10k plus scrappage would be stretching it


  • #21
    RandomViewer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    loopymum wrote: »
    I would hardly call mid 50s old to be fair.

    There was a program a few years ago about old age pensioners and one of them was driving a leaf and he was 100.
    Might be this guy

    Honestly the leaf is the easiet car to drive

    It's old tech, will be as sellable as a Betamax VCR in 3 years


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  • #22
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    Why would you even bother, at 5000 km a year you'll be spending precious little in fuel anyway. You could have a big dirty 5.0 litre V8 and your fuel costs would still be minimal.


  • #23
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    RandomViewer wrote: »
    Old people rarely fill their own fuel, they'll actually travel to a forecourt with a pump attendant, EVs dont suit everyone, pushing people into them because theres a sales target is no better than a pyramid scheme

    I don’t know of any forecourts with attendants in Dublin at all.


  • #24
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    RandomViewer wrote: »
    It's old tech, will be as sellable as a Betamax VCR in 3 years

    People said the same about Gen 1 Leafs 3 years ago. Yet here we are, still selling them to people that they suit.


  • #25
    RandomViewer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Gumbo wrote: »
    People said the same about Gen 1 Leafs 3 years ago. Yet here we are, still selling them to people that they suit.

    Worth less than equivalent Pulsar and that's a feat in itself,


  • #26
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,059 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    RandomViewer wrote: »
    Worth less than equivalent Pulsar and that's a feat in itself,

    Am I missing something, I look on Carzone and see 2013 Leafs with 100,000km listed for around €10k


  • #27
    RandomViewer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    liamog wrote: »
    Am I missing something, I look on Carzone and see 2013 Leafs with 100,000km listed for around €10k

    You'll get a 2016 for that, 8 years or 150k warranty on the battery which with a 2013 will probably have a very limited range, buying someone else's bother

    https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/nissan-leaf-ev-sv-cold-pk-4dr-auto/27044072


  • #28
    pwurple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    Pre owned leaf would be ideal for her.
    Lads, the woman is her 50's, not her 90's.

    Low tax, low maintenance, low cost of ownership. That's what is ideal about EVs. No oil changes etc. It's plug and play. With low mileage the largest cost of ownership factor is actually not the fuel, it's the insurance, tax, annual service. My leaf service was 90 euro per year. Tax was 120. What petrol car comes close to that?

    Also it's a nippy car, easy to park. Get one with the cold pack if you can, the heated steering wheel and seats is a touch of luxury on cold mornings.


  • #29
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    RandomViewer wrote: »
    buying someone else's bother

    Which puts it in the same boat as buying any second hand car, whether it’s petrol, diesel, EV or hybrid. Common sense there.


  • #30
    RandomViewer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Which puts it in the same boat as buying any second hand car, whether it’s petrol, diesel, EV or hybrid. Common sense there.

    Big difference in replacing an engine in a 1.2 petrol and having to buy a battery for an EV


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  • #31
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    RandomViewer wrote: »
    Big difference in replacing an engine in a 1.2 petrol and having to buy a battery for an EV

    Very rare to do either.


  • #32
    RandomViewer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,191 ✭✭✭RandomViewer


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Very rare to do either.

    Battery degradation is a known problem in Leafs, 24kw one around 3% a year, so a 10 year old one will probably do 80km on a full charge 30kw is 9%, , maybe buy a diesel generator and stick it in the boot of that one


  • #33
    Casati
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭Casati


    RandomViewer wrote: »
    Old people rarely fill their own fuel, they'll actually travel to a forecourt with a pump attendant, EVs dont suit everyone, pushing people into them because theres a sales target is no better than a pyramid scheme

    This must a wind up? Somebody in their mid 50's is old now?? Are you sure you have'nt transported yourself back to the 1950's when we had poorer life expectancy and petrol pump attendants?

    I agree EV's dont suit everybody and probably isnt ideal for the OP as she will pay a premium for an EV which really wont give any fuel saving as her mileage is so low. I'd steer her towards a newer/ cheaper Micra or Yaris


  • #34
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    RandomViewer wrote: »
    Battery degradation is a known problem in Leafs, 24kw one around 3% a year, so a 10 year old one will probably do 80km on a full charge 30kw is 9%, , maybe buy a diesel generator and stick it in the boot of that one

    The degradation is not linear.
    It will level out over time.

    Even the very first 2011 leaf that had the battery issues (the 132 Gen 1.5 with lizard batteries were much better) won’t degrade to 0. They still have a range of 60-80km on a single charge now.

    If that suits your driving then perfect. There’s gains to be had with local emissions and reduced cost of motoring for the owner.

    If the owner really wanted to increase their range then they can do a battery swap for about €2k - https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2058074989


  • #35
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,059 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    There's a lot of misinformation in this thread, we have arguments that the same age second hand EV is both too expensive because of the cost premium, and shouldn't be purchased due to loss in value. Generally EVs are deprecating at or around the same level as their ICE equivalents, much of the misunderstanding is due to reports looking at pre incentive prices instead of original purchase price. You see a similar effect when looking at range. The 24kWh Leaf was sold as a 199km car, according to EVDB, it had a realistic range of 130km in summer and 110km in winter. The Leaf does seem to suffer age related battery loss more than other cars. We see Renault Zoe's from around 2014 with much lower rates of battery loss.

    To the OPs scenario, something like this 2015 Zoe would be about the same size as her Micra https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/renault-zoe-dynamique-nav-88bhp-22kw/26995423 and are usually under 10k, financially she would probably be better off buying a Clio found 1k less.


  • #36
    Casati
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭Casati


    liamog wrote: »
    There's a lot of misinformation in this thread, we have arguments that the same age second hand EV is both too expensive because of the cost premium, and shouldn't be purchased due to loss in value. Generally EVs are deprecating at or around the same level as their ICE equivalents, much of the misunderstanding is due to reports looking at pre incentive prices instead of original purchase price. You see a similar effect when looking at range. The 24kWh Leaf was sold as a 199km car, according to EVDB, it had a realistic range of 130km in summer and 110km in winter. The Leaf does seem to suffer age related battery loss more than other cars. We see Renault Zoe's from around 2014 with much lower rates of battery loss.

    To the OPs scenario, something like this 2015 Zoe would be about the same size as her Micra https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/renault-zoe-dynamique-nav-88bhp-22kw/26995423 and are usually under 10k, financially she would probably be better off buying a Clio found 1k less.

    You are adding to the mis- information by finding a particular 2015 Zoe that is priced well to prove a point but that doesn’t mean other posters are wrong.

    Go up to say 2017 and you see a completely different picture - plenty of low mileage Clios for under 10k yet the cheapest Zoe’s is 13k (battery lease?) and most are 15k. That’s 30% to 50% price difference

    Jump to 2019 and Clios are 11/12k where a single Zoe is 18k and most are 20k+. That’s a 50% price difference


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  • #37
    McGiver
    Registered Users Posts: 4,450 ✭✭✭McGiver


    Casati wrote:
    Jump to 2019 and Clios are 11/12k where a single Zoe is 18k and most are 20k+. That’s a 50% price difference

    Proves EVs depreciate less.


  • #38
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    pwurple wrote: »
    Pre owned leaf would be ideal for her.
    Lads, the woman is her 50's, not her 90's.

    Low tax, low maintenance, low cost of ownership. That's what is ideal about EVs. No oil changes etc. It's plug and play. With low mileage the largest cost of ownership factor is actually not the fuel, it's the insurance, tax, annual service. My leaf service was 90 euro per year. Tax was 120. What petrol car comes close to that?

    Also it's a nippy car, easy to park. Get one with the cold pack if you can, the heated steering wheel and seats is a touch of luxury on cold mornings.

    It’s €280 tax on the Micra for some reason. It looks to only mean going back another year to get a Leaf Vs a Micra. There used to be a rule where the age of the car made a difference to the amount of years you could finance over. Is that still there?


  • #39
    Casati
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,043 ✭✭✭Casati


    McGiver wrote: »
    Proves EVs depreciate less.

    No it doesnt, it indicates that Zoe's are considerably more expensive than Clio's second-hand. They are of course considerably more expensive new also.


  • #40
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Gael23 wrote: »
    It’s €280 tax on the Micra for some reason. It looks to only mean going back another year to get a Leaf Vs a Micra. There used to be a rule where the age of the car made a difference to the amount of years you could finance over. Is that still there?

    You need to do a cost comparison.
    There seems to be a lot of talk by you on finance costs?

    If so worried about finance costs, why not keep her existing car?


  • #41
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,059 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Casati wrote: »
    No it doesnt, it indicates that Zoe's are considerably more expensive than Clio's second-hand. They are of course considerably more expensive new also.

    Which pretty much illustrates that the depreciation is about even.

    If one car is 30k new and worth 15k after 4 years, the second car is 20k new and worth 10k after 4 years, they have the same 50% depreciation.


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  • #42
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Gumbo wrote: »
    You need to do a cost comparison.
    There seems to be a lot of talk by you on finance costs?

    If so worried about finance costs, why not keep her existing car?

    She can only afford so much on a loan every month so getting an EV looks to mean getting an older car than by staying ICE


  • #43
    liamog
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 8,059 Mod ✭✭✭✭liamog


    Gael23 wrote: »
    She can only afford so much on a loan every month so getting an EV looks to mean getting an older car than by staying ICE

    Yep, this is what you need to focus on, her mileage is so low that she won't benefit from the reduced running cost. Better for her to buy a reliable petrol car this time round.


  • #44
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Gael23 wrote: »
    She can only afford so much on a loan every month so getting an EV looks to mean getting an older car than by staying ICE

    Narrow or down to the 2 choices and compare.
    Do a twin column.

    If you post up what car your considering then it can be compared against a similar EV. Then if the EV is. It worth it, concentrate on the ICE.


  • #45
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Gumbo wrote: »
    Narrow or down to the 2 choices and compare.
    Do a twin column.

    If you post up what car your considering then it can be compared against a similar EV. Then if the EV is. It worth it, concentrate on the ICE.

    From the research I’ve done a 2016 Leaf 30 would cost only slightly less than a 2018 Micra.


  • #46
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    HVe been doing some searching recently.
    Looked in a Renault dealership at a 172 Zoe but they also have a 191 Clio for the same price. It’s hard to go back 2 years further


  • #47
    oinkely
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 966 ✭✭✭oinkely


    There's other considerations too. In our case, my mother, slightly older than yours chose EV at considerably more expense as she hated going to the petrol station - like detested it with a passion. The convenience of having a fully charged car ready to go outside the house whenever she needed it was a big consideration for her. The ease of driving vs a petrol/diesel also came into it, but more after the fact. At this stage, 3 years on she will never own an ICE again.

    She is also a bit environmentally conscious and liked the idea of replacing an aging diesel with an EV.

    I would suggest a test drive if you can arrange it in a few of the contenders and then take it from there. I would take an older ev over an ICE of younger years every time.


  • #48
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,123 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    Yes I see your point. It’s just the car would be 9 years old by the time she’s finished paying for it


  • #49
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 39,783 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Gael23 wrote: »
    HVe been doing some searching recently.
    Looked in a Renault dealership at a 172 Zoe but they also have a 191 Clio for the same price. It’s hard to go back 2 years further

    What’s the difference in the 2 years if they are the same price?
    Battery size?
    Model refresh?
    Spec?

    For me, I’d have a 171 Leaf Tekna over a 191 Leaf Base, all others being equal, similar for tesla, I’d take a 2015 Performance over a 2018 LR/Standard etc


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