Learning. Need Advice.

karlitob · 22-01-2021 11:45pm #1

Hi all

Bit of a steer required if you please. Trying to learn about more about electrics. Neighbour threw me in his faulty outdoor halogen PIR floodlight. He can hear the sensor click on, but no light coming on. Put new bulb in, no joy.

1) Rewired the cable that was attached to his mains to a plug. Can hear click. No light.

2) Cleaned the PIR. Can hear click. No light.

3) Removed the PIR wiring. The live from the main was connected to the live of the PIR. A wire in PIR was then connected to another wire going to the light - I presume both were the switch live. So I attached the light ‘switch live’ to the main live (which was a braided white cable). The earth was still to the earth. And the neutral from the main to what I presume to be the neutral for the light - a black and white braided cable. No click. But no light.

So with my multimeter set at 2k ohm

Halogen bulb: I’m getting 0.23 which I presume means it’s working.

Plug to light socket: I’m getting under 1 when I touch the live pin on the plug to one terminal of the light socket which I presume means it’s working. But I’m not getting any change (stays at 1) when I touch the neutral pin to the other terminal of the light socket. I don’t know what this means.

Appreciate any help. Thanks.

Lenar3556 · 23-01-2021 12:10am

karlitob wrote: »

Hi all

Bit of a steer required if you please. Trying to learn about more about electrics. Neighbour threw me in his faulty outdoor halogen PIR floodlight. He can hear the sensor click on, but no light coming on. Put new bulb in, no joy.

1) Rewired the cable that was attached to his mains to a plug. Can hear click. No light.

2) Cleaned the PIR. Can hear click. No light.

3) Removed the PIR wiring. The live from the main was connected to the live of the PIR. A wire in PIR was then connected to another wire going to the light - I presume both were the switch live. So I attached the light ‘switch live’ to the main live (which was a braided white cable). The earth was still to the earth. And the neutral from the main to what I presume to be the neutral for the light - a black and white braided cable. No click. But no light.

So with my multimeter set at 2k ohm

Halogen bulb: I’m getting 0.23 which I presume means it’s working.

Plug to light socket: I’m getting under 1 when I touch the live pin on the plug to one terminal of the light socket which I presume means it’s working. But I’m not getting any change (stays at 1) when I touch the neutral pin to the other terminal of the light socket. I don’t know what this means.

Appreciate any help. Thanks.

(Stays at 1) being overlimit/open circuit? As in the same presentation as when leads unconnected? Note this is the complete opposite to 1 Ohm.

Sounds like the neutral connection is broken somewhere between the lamp holder and plug top. You are going about it the right way.

23-01-2021 8:32am

Measure the voltage across the live and neutral points of contact for the halogen lamp when it is supposed to be switched on. This should be around 230V.

In my experience these lamps are difficult to install properly. This may be your issue.

meercat · 23-01-2021 8:53am

2011 wrote: »

Measure the voltage across the live and neutral points of contact for the halogen lamp when it is supposed to be switched on. This should be around 230V.

In my experience these lamps are difficult to install properly. This may be your issue.

This.
Sometimes the pins don’t make proper contact with the lamps. Some lamps have smaller recess points and the insulator prevents contact.

karlitob · 23-01-2021 9:26am

2011 wrote: »

Measure the voltage across the live and neutral points of contact for the halogen lamp when it is supposed to be switched on. This should be around 230V.

In my experience these lamps are difficult to install properly. This may be your issue.

Thank you.

So - red connector into the other socket on the multimeter. Pop the meter to 240v

Take out the bulb. Plug in the lamp. And then carefully touch each of the light socket contacts with one of the multimeter leads. And whatever I do - don’t electrocute myself.

Is that correct?

What should I see on the meter? Presume 240v. Anything less means nothing going through it??

meercat · 23-01-2021 9:45am

karlitob wrote: »

Thank you.

So - red connector into the other socket on the multimeter. Pop the meter to 240v

Take out the bulb. Plug in the lamp. And then carefully touch each of the light socket contacts with one of the multimeter leads. And whatever I do - don’t electrocute myself.

Is that correct?

What should I see on the meter? Presume 240v. Anything less means nothing going through it??

Yes. Check your multimeter in a socket beforehand to confirm it’s working correctly

When you test at the light pins you should get 230-240v when the sensor clicks

karlitob · 23-01-2021 2:32pm

You were correct. It was the neutral. It detached from the terminal.

Next issue is reconnecting it all together. There’s a lot of gromits connecting things. I’ve no soldering iron. Is there anything else I could use to connect the neutral to the terminal.

alan4cult · 23-01-2021 2:38pm

Why not just buy a new PIR? It can be an independent unit.

That wiring looks well beyond its life.

meercat · 23-01-2021 3:41pm

Agree. There’s no point fixing it. However it was a great exercise in fault finding and discovering how things work. Well done

karlitob · 23-01-2021 3:53pm

meercat wrote: »

Agree. There’s no point fixing it. However it was a great exercise in fault finding and discovering how things work. Well done

Exactly. Just wanted to learn. Was hoping to fix it as the neighbours been very good to me and wanted to get it right.

Would soldering work? Or is it just a waste of time.

Lenar3556 · 23-01-2021 4:12pm

karlitob wrote: »

Exactly. Just wanted to learn. Was hoping to fix it as the neighbours been very good to me and wanted to get it right.

Would soldering work? Or is it just a waste of time.

It might, have you any better photos?

karlitob · 23-01-2021 7:06pm

Lenar3556 wrote: »

It might, have you any better photos?

Thanks. It’s an old floodlight but for the sake of a bit of solder and some ingenuity you get another little while out of it. Pics attached.
- the other intact side
- front and back of the terminal as well as the wire. I’ve put a ferrule on one end. You’ll see a gromit at the end of the terminal - this is to attach into the ceramic holder. I’ll get that secured in.

While I think I could solder it I wonder is there anything that would ensure that the solder wouldn’t pull away.

meercat · 23-01-2021 7:27pm

I really wouldn’t bother. The lamp holder is too far gone. The solder probably wouldn’t last too long as there’s a lot of heat generated from the halogen lamp.
You’d be back at it in no time. Replacement fittings are cheap enough

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/lap-led-pir-floodlight-black-10w-daylight/767CC?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsPa35OOy7gIVjq3tCh2uDg9IEAYYAiABEgJruvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

davebuck · 23-01-2021 7:40pm

Too much heat for any repair to last much better and more importantly far safer to replace, no electrician would even try to repair this fitting and that is just a fact no criticism meant.

karlitob · 23-01-2021 8:13pm

davebuck wrote: »

Too much heat for any repair to last much better and more importantly far safer to replace, no electrician would even try to repair this fitting and that is just a fact no criticism meant.

Not at all. Really appreciate the advice. Didn’t even think about the heat melting the solder. As I say - looking to learn a little about electrics and learned lots today.

Thanks all.

karlitob · 23-01-2021 8:22pm

meercat wrote: »

I really wouldn’t bother. The lamp holder is too far gone. The solder probably wouldn’t last too long as there’s a lot of heat generated from the halogen lamp.
You’d be back at it in no time. Replacement fittings are cheap enough

https://www.screwfix.ie/p/lap-led-pir-floodlight-black-10w-daylight/767CC?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsPa35OOy7gIVjq3tCh2uDg9IEAYYAiABEgJruvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Thanks for your time and advice.

karlitob · 20-02-2021 11:36am

Next electrical job that I hope people can advise me on.

These two down lights in the bedroom - I used to have to wiggle them when they turned off for them to come on again. You’d hear a kind of buzz.

Anyway they eventually went a few years ago and i just haven’t bothered fixing it.

So I’ve pulled everything apart, tested all wires and connections on the multimeter, put ferrules on everything for a better connection. It seems like one of the G4 bulbs has gone. Will replace both with LEDs.

The working bulb is not working - if that makes sense. I think it either the transformer or that the broken bulb is breaking the circuit. Does that make sense? how do I know it’s not the transformer that’s gone. Is there any way to figure that out with a multimeter.

Pics attached - the previous person put an extension from the transformer to the bulb hence the old junction box.

Thanks in advance.

Dred. · 20-02-2021 1:24pm

Check lamps , then lampholders, connections and then electronic trafo

That sequence pretty much til they work

Not sure bout the minimum wattage on the trafo, could be an issue with the G4 ?

Reading your post there fully ,sounds like an issue with lampholders anyhow

karlitob · 20-02-2021 1:33pm

Dred. wrote: »

Check lamps , then lampholders, connections and then electronic trafo

That sequence pretty much til they work

Not sure bout the minimum wattage on the trafo, could be an issue with the G4 ?

Reading your post there fully ,sounds like an issue with lampholders anyhow

Actually found a working G4. Put it in and still not working.

I checked the lamp holders to the wires that come out with multimeter - no problems.

I checked both wires with the bulb in - there was a connection to working bulb, not to the broken one (but there is a connection to the ‘new’ bulb.

So it seems like the transformer. Can I check that with multimeter to confirm.

Are these expensive to pick up.

meercat · 20-02-2021 1:45pm

OP,
Only a rec is permitted to do electrical work in a bathroom. What you’re doing is illegal.
Leave this one to the experts.

Dred. · 20-02-2021 1:45pm

karlitob wrote: »

Actually found a working G4. Put it in and still not working.

I checked the lamp holders to the wires that come out with multimeter - no problems.

I checked both wires with the bulb in - there was a connection to working bulb, not to the broken one (but there is a connection to the ‘new’ bulb.

So it seems like the transformer. Can I check that with multimeter to confirm.

Are these expensive to pick up.

Not sure that you'll get an output on the electronic trafo without a load connected

Test them with a working load is prob the handiest

A good 12v bulb and lampholder connect it direct to trafo

karlitob · 20-02-2021 2:07pm

Dred. wrote: »

Not sure that you'll get an output on the electronic trafo without a load connected

Test them with a working load is prob the handiest

A good 12v bulb and lampholder connect it direct to trafo

Understood. Will try that. Thanks.

Dred. · 20-02-2021 2:21pm

karlitob wrote: »

Understood. Will try that. Thanks.

Bear in mind the post above re:restricted works

I overlooked that with the advice

karlitob · 20-02-2021 2:26pm

Dred. wrote: »

Bear in mind the post above re:restricted works

I overlooked that with the advice

Not sure the other poster read my post correctly. This down light is in my bedroom above the dresser. Everyone can be rest assured that nothing illegal is happening and that no vicarious liability can be attributed to any anonymous person on boards, or indeed boards themselves.

But of course I’ll bear that in mind and where required will use a REC for any electrical works where the law dictates.

Dred. · 20-02-2021 2:28pm

karlitob wrote: »

Not sure the other poster read my post correctly. This down light is in my bedroom above the dresser. Everyone can be rest assured that nothing illegal is happening and that no vicarious liability can be attributed to any anonymous person on boards, or indeed boards themselves.

But of course I’ll bear that in mind and where required will use a REC for any electrical works where the law dictates.

Bedroom ya , what the hell I read it as bathroom too!

karlitob · 20-02-2021 2:50pm

Dred. wrote: »

Not sure that you'll get an output on the electronic trafo without a load connected

Test them with a working load is prob the handiest

A good 12v bulb and lampholder connect it direct to trafo

Can I check - is the G4 not a 12V? Do you mean like an E27. LUH and it’s lamp holder?

If so, if the transformer works with the e27 and not the g4 what does that mean?
Presumably if it doesn’t work, it’s the transformer.

Thanks.

Dred. · 20-02-2021 3:15pm

karlitob wrote: »

Can I check - is the G4 not a 12V? Do you mean like an E27. LUH and it’s lamp holder?

If so, if the transformer works with the e27 and not the g4 what does that mean?
Presumably if it doesn’t work, it’s the transformer.

Thanks.

No I didn't mean that

TBH I'd be wary if you can't follow the advice, not being smart

karlitob · 20-02-2021 3:27pm

Dred. wrote: »

No I didn't mean that

TBH I'd be wary if you can't follow the advice, not being smart

Not at all. Appreciate your concerns. As I say - I’m learning about electrics. Wont do anything stupid - it’s my home after all. Just here for advice - if I knew, I wouldn’t ask. How else can I learn.

Would appreciate if you could guide me through some more. As I say, I’m happy enough will all connections and bulbs etc. It seems to be the transformer - how I can I test if it’s working, what do I need to do. What replacement will I purchase if it is broken. I was thinking of changing the halogen to LED - perhaps a different transformer is needed anyway.

If you can’t/won’t, I certainly understand and appreciate your advice so far.

aido79 · 20-02-2021 9:41pm

karlitob wrote: »

Not at all. Appreciate your concerns. As I say - I’m learning about electrics. Wont do anything stupid - it’s my home after all. Just here for advice - if I knew, I wouldn’t ask. How else can I learn.

Would appreciate if you could guide me through some more. As I say, I’m happy enough will all connections and bulbs etc. It seems to be the transformer - how I can I test if it’s working, what do I need to do. What replacement will I purchase if it is broken. I was thinking of changing the halogen to LED - perhaps a different transformer is needed anyway.

If you can’t/won’t, I certainly understand and appreciate your advice so far.

Check the voltage at the input and output of the transformer. It'll probably be 230v at the input and 12v at the output. Obviously if you have voltage at the input and none at the output the transformer is probably faulty.

Some transformers won't work with LED's as the wattage is too low so you need to check what the wattage or VA of the transformer.

meercat · 21-02-2021 8:30am

karlitob wrote: »

Not sure the other poster read my post correctly. .

Sorry if I misread your post. Your photos also look like it’s a bathroom cabinet on a tiled wall.
Agree with other who say it’s most likely the transformer that’s faulty. The pin holders on the light fittings are also fiddly and troublesome

karlitob · 21-02-2021 9:49am

meercat wrote: »

Sorry if I misread your post.

No problem. We all make mistakes.

Will check out the transformer in more detail.

whizbang · 22-02-2021 12:44am

The transformer output is probably in the region of 50 - 150Khz, AC, with a high crest factor depending on load.
Almost no multimeter will correctly display the voltage from this.
You can use an oscilloscope, but best option is a Thermocouple Ammeter and a suitable resistor.

Specs on the transformer should say what frequency, and the Minimum load. ->this is important !
As previously mentioned, theres almost no output with no load. Its possible to use a resistor, but a 50Watt resistor is expensive.

One other thing, please measure the float voltage of the output to ground when its powered on. It can be up to 160Volts AC. Thats enough to smoke stuff!!

Learning. Need Advice.

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