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EU Biodiversity strategy 2030

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    #32
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,087 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    tabby aspreme wrote: »
    Ploughing in straw raises the Organic Matter levels in the soil

    It's the bacteria and fungi that raises the organic matter in soil and raises the long term carbon.
    5 years ago group think was by just burying plant matter job done. However we've moved on from there and it's now known that if the soil life is not there that plant matter won't break down into the stable..ish carbon components.
    What kills soil life is soil tillage and sprays and fungicides. The plough releases carbon stores to the atmosphere and damages soil life.
    I'm surprised min till wasn't promoted.

    A plough scrapage scheme would have been better for the environment.


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    #33
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Will IFA call this scaremongering too?

    https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/eu-environment-ministers-endorse-biodiversity-strategy/

    A lot of farmers have no clue what's about to descend on them.

    For those reading that think this will do "something" for the environment, 92% of the habitats havd failed to improve or declined in the near 25 years since Michael D Higgins signed them in.

    Designations are simply punishment.

    Our Dail will have no say in this, which suits most political parties who can say nothing to do with us.


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    #34
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/roadmap-to-reduce-management-intensity-of-40000ha-of-peat-based-soils/

    Some nice quotes from the article above. Basically they want to flood these lands.

    "drained lands will be targeted for carbon loss reduction"

    "water table manipulation and reduced management intensity"

    "identifying grasslands “on carbon rich soils (and determine their drainage status)"


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    #35
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    Say my name wrote: »
    Just a reply to Ncdjd.

    On the clean growing medium.
    Biochar will work just fine. I've used miscanthus biochar treated with sea minerals for cuttings. Humic acid or seaweed solution mixed in would work too. The plant doesn't need as much watering too. Looks to hold onto more moisture than peat while also having air get to the roots.

    I'd agree on the social media warriors. Majority look like they're just empty tin cans rattling away without actually doing anything themselves. Constructive for them is rattling away on Twitter or Facebook.

    This might be a stupid question, why is biochar not been advocted as a growing medium? The use of peat has to stop and there is a huge market for commericial/domestic growing mediums??


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    #36
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,087 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    This might be a stupid question, why is biochar not been advocted as a growing medium? The use of peat has to stop and there is a huge market for commericial/domestic growing mediums??

    I honestly don't know.

    It was used 50 and probably 100 years ago and more as a medium in orchid growing.

    It's use got sidelined then with the availability of peat being sold in bags ready to go.

    There's a little bit of snobbery I suspect from academia in certain quarters and then you have the businesses that don't want change saying it can't be done.
    Monty Don got the ire from all lately.

    Asia are way ahead on the matter. Probably because it's poverty farmer led and gardeners with skills in Europe are on the ball too.


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    #37
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,087 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Taken just now.

    Peat free. 100% biochar.

    20201210-094647.jpg


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    #38
    alps
    Registered Users Posts: 4,934 ✭✭✭alps


    If peat is returned to the ground after being used as bedding, where has the carbon loss occured?

    Is there a loss in the extraction similar to when ploughing a field or is there a loss during the rotting/composting process?


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    #39
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,087 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    alps wrote: »
    If peat is returned to the ground after being used as bedding, where has the carbon loss occured?

    Is there a loss in the extraction similar to when ploughing a field or is there a loss during the rotting/composting process?
    Both ways. By drying out the bog for extraction it rots away back to carbon dioxide and up to the atmosphere.
    Same when spreading back on land it rots away back to carbon dioxide and up to the atmosphere.
    All the above need is wet anaerobic soil conditions to stop the rot and preserve the carbon. It's pickled carbon.


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    #40
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    Say my name wrote: »
    Both ways. By drying out the bog for extraction it rots away back to carbon dioxide and up to the atmosphere.
    Same when spreading back on land it rots away back to carbon dioxide and up to the atmosphere.
    All the above need is wet anaerobic soil conditions to stop the rot and preserve the carbon. It's pickled carbon.

    Same problem with planting forestry on blanket bog. Instaling drains removes water and exposes the peat to atmospheric oxygen. The Carbon in peat is then oxidized to CO2.

    As the trees grow and their roots grow down into peat more water is removed and even more Carbon (from peat) is oxidized to CO2.


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    #41
    blue5000
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,624 Mod ✭✭✭✭blue5000


    Capercaillie wrote: »
    Same problem with planting forestry on blanket bog. Instaling drains removes water and exposes the peat to atmospheric oxygen. The Carbon in peat is then oxidized to CO2.

    As the trees grow and their roots grow down into peat more water is removed and even more Carbon (from peat) is oxidized to CO2.

    But after 15 years the trees absorb more than was released by the peat. Hard to find info on it though. I think CCF should be encouraged on peat soils.

    If the seat's wet, sit on yer hat, a cool head is better than a wet ar5e.



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    #42
    Capercaillie
    Registered Users Posts: 1,732 ✭✭✭Capercaillie


    blue5000 wrote: »
    But after 15 years the trees absorb more than was released by the peat. Hard to find info on it though. I think CCF should be encouraged on peat soils.

    Peatlands cover 3% of world land surface but sequester more C than the combined C stored in worlds forest. Draining peatlands to sow conifer is a disaster for C emissions.


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    #43
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I see Minister Noonan has contradicted IFA on their statement that no new designations will be brought into law.

    Farmers on all peatlands, in all provinces and all counties in the state need to be concerned about this. No use complaining the stable door wasn't bolted after the facts ladies & gents.

    https://www.agriland.ie/farming-news/noonan-i-did-not-make-definitive-statement-about-further-designations

    FYI

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=113951008


    But Tim said it could never happen! Do the teachers union take farmers?

    https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/environment/ireland-to-join-global-effort-to-designate-a-third-of-the-earth-as-a-protected-area-39954057.html


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    #44
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,480 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Deleted User wrote: »
    But Tim said it could never happen! Do the teachers union take farmers?

    https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/environment/ireland-to-join-global-effort-to-designate-a-third-of-the-earth-as-a-protected-area-39954057.html

    Maybe do a HDip online :D


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    #45
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    _Brian wrote: »
    Maybe do a HDip online :D

    I'm doing 4 courses currently online, and I'm tossing around the idea of a 5th :eek:, when I get a gap in my schedule around 2037 I'll briefly consider and reject the idea :D And that's a promise!


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    #46
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,480 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I'm doing 4 courses currently online, and I'm tossing around the idea of a 5th :eek:, when I get a gap in my schedule around 2037 I'll briefly consider and reject the idea :D And that's a promise!

    That’s quite the schedule!!


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    #47
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    _Brian wrote: »
    That’s quite the schedule!!

    Given the topic of this thread I had to reorganise my priorities. One tip for designated lands, if you're already doing something, it's much more difficult for them to stop you. Not impossible, but it adds spanners to the works.


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    #48
    Castlekeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭Castlekeeper


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    But Tim said it could never happen! Do the teachers union take farmers?

    https://www.independent.ie/business/farming/forestry-enviro/environment/ireland-to-join-global-effort-to-designate-a-third-of-the-earth-as-a-protected-area-39954057.html

    Tim openly said that that he would represent other farmers as well as commercial farmers if he was elected.
    Says it all really, business as usual for the IFA, we're alright Jack.


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    #49
    Castlekeeper
    Registered Users Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭Castlekeeper


    Designations are a cop out option.
    What's needed is appropriate agricultural practices to help farmers, the environment, and all rural areas will benefit.
    Turf cutting is a separate issue.


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    #50
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Castlekeeper wrote: »
    Tim openly said that that he would represent other farmers as well as commercial farmers if he was elected.
    Says it all really, business as usual for the IFA, we're alright Jack.
    Castlekeeper wrote: »
    Designations are a cop out option.
    What's needed is appropriate agricultural practices to help farmers, the environment, and all rural areas will benefit.
    Turf cutting is a separate issue.

    Thing is, a lot of farmers who are IFA members will get designated. Their association has been telling them it won't happen. There are three green ministers in charge of implementing this. There's no escaping it when 30% of the country is down for designation. People need to be aware rather than being treated like mushrooms and fed ****.

    It appears the 10% strictly protected designation will fall mostly on state owned land BUT, be aware, there isn't enough state owned land to cover that 10%. AND with Ireland being made up of over 20% carbon rich soils it is likely we will get in excess of 10% strictly protected as the 10% target is an EU wide target not a member state target.

    On Ag practices (and I agree with you in principle), the green ministers were asked directly, if farmers were to willingly sign up to the aspirations of the Biodiversity 2030 strategy could the legal burdens (designations) be shelved. The answer was "no".

    That's what we're dealing with.


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    #51
    Base price
    Registered Users Posts: 11,157 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Thing is, a lot of farmers who are IFA members will get designated. Their association has been telling them it won't happen. There are three green ministers in charge of implementing this. There's no escaping it when 30% of the country is down for designation. People need to be aware rather than being treated like mushrooms and fed ****.

    It appears the 10% strictly protected designation will fall mostly on state owned land BUT, be aware, there isn't enough state owned land to cover that 10%. AND with Ireland being made up of over 20% carbon rich soils it is likely we will get in excess of 10% strictly protected as the 10% target is an EU wide target not a member state target.

    On Ag practices (and I agree with you in principle), the green ministers were asked directly, if farmers were to willingly sign up to the aspirations of the Biodiversity 2030 strategy could the legal burdens (designations) be shelved. The answer was "no".

    That's what we're dealing with.
    I thought it said that the designation would cover land and sea so one presumes that a portion of the sea will be included?


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    #52
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Base price wrote: »
    I thought it said that the designation would cover land and sea so one presumes that a portion of the sea will be included?

    Not quite. The 30% of land will be 30% on the land. Then there is another 30% for the sea, which will be...... in the sea. They're two different areas altogether.

    The sea designations will come as a shock to some also. I won't say I know the fisheries implications but for example if you own land by the sea, and that area of sea be it a bay or whatever is designated, and if you apply for planning on that land (which isn't designated) you'll be required to do an ecological impact report and other hoop jumping.


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    #53
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,636 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It appears the 10% strictly protected designation will fall mostly on state owned land BUT, be aware, there isn't enough state owned land to cover that 10%. AND with Ireland being made up of over 20% carbon rich soils it is likely we will get in excess of 10% strictly protected as the 10% target is an EU wide target not a member state target.

    Not sure about that - I would like to see Coillte and BNM landholdings included in this given their shocking record in the area over the years. Alot of "greenwashing" going on by these semi-states atm but the facts are that little has changed in their primitive approach that continues to cause wildlife loss, flooding, silt pollution and pesticide use


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    #54
    Birdnuts
    Registered Users Posts: 9,636 ✭✭✭Birdnuts


    Deleted User wrote: »
    Not quite. The 30% of land will be 30% on the land. Then there is another 30% for the sea, which will be...... in the sea. They're two different areas altogether.

    The sea designations will come as a shock to some also    . I won't say I know the fisheries implications but for example if you own land by the sea, and that area of sea be it a bay or whatever is designated, and if you apply for planning on that land (which isn't designated) you'll be required to do an ecological impact report and other hoop jumping.


    The Sea- designations are being brought it to stop the ongoing damage to fish nursuries etc. by heavy industrial fishing practices - that are still ongoing in bays around the country(including SAC ones!!). Many artisan fishermen are supporting these measures as there own livelyhoods are being threatened by the destructive activities of industrial trawlers hoovering up the likes of sprat(which the likes of Mackerel, Cod depend on!!) and destroying the seabed with heavy trawels


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    #55
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    Not sure about that

    I used the word "appears" deliberately, but last I heard, that is the direction of travel. It could well change, won't matter to the GP as next election they'll get torched.


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    #56
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I used the word "appears" deliberately, but last I heard, that is the direction of travel. It could well change, won't matter to the GP as next election they'll get torched.

    Hm, state has only 3% of that land area in total.


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    #57
    Base price
    Registered Users Posts: 11,157 ✭✭✭✭Base price


    Birdnuts wrote: »
    The Sea- designations are being brought it to stop the ongoing damage to fish nursuries etc. by heavy industrial fishing practices - that are still ongoing in bays around the country(including SAC ones!!). Many artisan fishermen are supporting these measures as there own livelyhoods are being threatened by the destructive activities of industrial trawlers hoovering up the likes of sprat(which the likes of Mackerel, Cod depend on!!) and destroying the seabed with heavy trawels
    I wonder what effect commercial harvesting of sea weed is going to have on fish nurseries considering that activity maybe increased to feed sea weed to cattle? I can nearly guarantee that these areas will not be designated due to commercial interests.


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    #58
    Say my name
    Registered Users Posts: 11,087 ✭✭✭✭Say my name


    Base price wrote: »
    I wonder what effect commercial harvesting of sea weed is going to have on fish nurseries considering that activity maybe increased to feed sea weed to cattle? I can nearly guarantee that these areas will not be designated due to commercial interests.

    I was talking to a couple at the Biofarm 2019 conference. From the Galway mayo area I believe.
    They were seaweed farmers.
    They seed ropes held up by buoys. Then when it comes to harvest they pull the rope into a boat and harvest and back with the ropes into the sea again.
    I thought it was a great sustainable business.

    Anyone here from that area know of such a business?


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    #59
    endainoz
    Registered Users Posts: 4,733 ✭✭✭endainoz


    Say my name wrote: »
    I was talking to a couple at the Biofarm 2019 conference. From the Galway mayo area I believe.
    They were seaweed farmers.
    They seed ropes held up by buoys. Then when it comes to harvest they pull the rope into a boat and harvest and back with the ropes into the sea again.
    I thought it was a great sustainable business.

    Anyone here from that area know of such a business?

    There's a crowd in West Clare called wild Irish Seaweed, seems that be fairly successful. Using it as a supliment for cattle minerals seems a smaller part of their business.

    The main focus they have is in the domestic market, using it as a food additive and they even had packs of fresh stuff you can add to your bath to have your own seaweed bath at home. You may laugh but it's very popular! Would be a pain to clean your bath after I'd imagine!


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    #60
    Water John
    Registered Users Posts: 21,135 ✭✭✭✭Water John


    Didn't a Canadian co buy the seaweed rights on part of the coastline?


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    #61
    TheBoyConor
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,292 ✭✭✭TheBoyConor


    But if land is to be taken out of agriculture and left to rewild, is it really that much of a loss to the farmer? As in they will be compensated by numerous grants like greening for maintaining the re-wilded lands as such etc in lieu of having to actively farm it on an agricultural basis. And realistically, all this land is marginal and poor quality in terms of agricultural value anyway.
    Would it no benefit farmers in these regions as they a) get grants for it and b) are no longer obliged to work the land like before.


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