George Nkencho shooting Mod warning Added to OP

BattleCorp · 14-01-2021 07:17PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

If you sit in your armchair and claim somebody is mentally ill from your laptop with no proof that is a lie.

That's not correct. In the case above, it isn't a lie......it's speculation. It's only a lie if you know he 100% didn't suffer from a mental illness. And none of us can know that 100%.

I believe the mental illness aspect of this case is neither here nor there eitherways so I'm going to drop it. The Gardai had to act and I believe they acted accordingly, whether he had a mental illness or not.

Quantum Erasure · 14-01-2021 07:18PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

there couldn't be. GDPR would prevent them from commenting publicly on his health.

Or just, you know, patient confidentiallity

Quantum Erasure · 14-01-2021 07:19PM

weldoninhio wrote: »

GDPR doesn’t cover dead people.

Its health and safety gone mad...

Eric Cartman · 14-01-2021 07:27PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

That's not correct. In the case above, it isn't a lie......it's speculation. It's only a lie if you know he 100% didn't suffer from a mental illness. And none of us can know that 100%.

I believe the mental illness aspect of this case is neither here nor there eitherways so I'm going to drop it. The Gardai had to act and I believe they acted accordingly, whether he had a mental illness or not.

Grand but just to ask was george having previous convictions just speculation and alright to mention until we got confirmation ?

weldoninhio · 14-01-2021 07:29PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

We aren't on the same wavelength.

You can have a mental illness without it being diagnosed. The same as you can have cancer without being diagnosed. Or high blood pressure, or any other medical condition really. The absence of a diagnosis doesn't mean that you don't have that condition.

The fact that you are fairly sure that the guy 'wasn't all there' adds to the likelihood that he was suffering from a mental illness. I'd be thinking along the lines that he 'wasn't all there' either. Is the fact that we think that proof he had a mental illness, no, absolutely not. I acknowledge that.

So, without proof, is it a lie to say he suffered from a mental illness? I'm going to say no. Because we don't have proof that it's a lie either.

Hahahaha schroedingers mental illness.

But on a serious note, your unemployed ma and sister can’t diagnose a mental illness, so taking his family at face value is nonsense.

BattleCorp · 14-01-2021 07:34PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

Grand but just to ask was george having previous convictions just speculation and alright to mention until we got confirmation ?

I don't know. I'd say the first person who posted about his previous convictions probably did lie. And then others took it as gospel and posted it far and wide.

It's much easier to prove a lie when it comes to previous convictions than it is to prove a lie when it comes to mental health.

BattleCorp · 14-01-2021 07:37PM

weldoninhio wrote: »

Hahahaha schroedingers mental illness.

But on a serious note, your unemployed ma and sister can’t diagnose a mental illness, so taking his family at face value is nonsense.

Seriously though, you don't have to be diagnosed with mental illness to have a mental illness.

If someone never goes to a doctor and later dies from cancer, does that mean that they didn't have cancer........because it wasn't diagnosed?

I'm not saying that GN had a mental illness. It does look like it though based on his actions. I'm just saying it's a possibility. The fact that we don't have proof of a diagnosis doesn't mean that he didn't have a mental illness. Again, all of this is speculation because I don't know.

Again though, mental illness or not, I believe the Gardai did what needed to be done.

What you say about his family not being able to diagnose mental illness is 100% true. But they can suspect it. And their suspicions may well be true. Or not.

14-01-2021 07:37PM

Even if he had mental health issues.And assuming the Gardai were familiar with him.

At the point he swung at the cops with the knife, irrespective of mental health, it was ending one way once non lethal measures failed. Unfortunate. But inevitable.

If he was that violent, or potentially that violent, should he have been in the community.
The mental health card I suspect is a red herring, an effort to absolve this unfortunate young black man of any responsibility for his actions, to claim to be a victim himself, failed by the state and gunned down by racist white cops in racist Ireland and we should all feel bad.
And stuff.

Eric Cartman · 14-01-2021 07:43PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

I don't know. I'd say the first person who posted about his previous convictions probably did lie. And then others took it as gospel and posted it far and wide.

It's much easier to prove a lie when it comes to previous convictions than it is to prove a lie when it comes to mental health.

So you accept that somebody just sitting down and making up utter crap to suit their agenda with no knowledge whatsoever is a lie, i doubt the person who made up the convictions had georges rap sheet to hand just like the twitter user who screamed mental health didnt have his hse record to hand. Im flad to see you can finally agree that both of those people flat out lied in the hours after the incident , both lied to suit their agenda

Eric Cartman · 14-01-2021 07:43PM

MikeOxsgreen wrote: »

Even if he had mental health issues.And assuming the Gardai were familiar with him.

At the point he swung at the cops with the knife, irrespective of mental health, it was ending one way once non lethal measures failed. Unfortunate. But inevitable.

If he was that violent, or potentially that violent, should he have been in the community.
The mental health card I suspect is a red herring, an effort to absolve this unfortunate young black man of any responsibility for his actions, to claim to be a victim himself, failed by the state and gunned down by racist white cops in racist Ireland and we should all feel bad.
And stuff.

He was ‘known to gardai’ and not in a mental health related capacity

14-01-2021 07:51PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

He was ‘known to gardai’ and not in a mental health related capacity

I suspect a chap doesn't suddenly act out of character. equip himself with a long knife , stroll down to the local Spar and smash a shop keeper in the face.

BattleCorp · 14-01-2021 07:53PM

Eric Cartman wrote: »

So you accept that somebody just sitting down and making up utter crap to suit their agenda with no knowledge whatsoever is a lie, i doubt the person who made up the convictions had georges rap sheet to hand

just like the twitter user who screamed mental health didnt have his hse record to hand. Im flad to see you can finally agree that both of those people flat out lied in the hours after the incident , both lied to suit their agenda

Yep. I accept that somebody just sitting down and making up utter crap (about previous criminal history) to suit their agenda with no knowledge whatsoever is a lie. Where did I say any different?

But I'm not in agreement with you on the second part of the post. The absence of a clinical diagnosis doesn't mean that he wasn't suffering from a mental illness. He may or may not have been suffering from a mental illness. Looking at his actions on the day, he wasn't exactly behaving like a rational, sane member of society.

So, the previous criminal history aspect - more than likely a lie.
The mental health aspect - more than likely speculation, and speculation that may have been true. Or could have been a lie. But we can't say for certain.

Anyway, I've repeated the same thing several times so I won't engage any more. Unless I change my mind.

Effects · 14-01-2021 07:57PM

weldoninhio wrote: »

GDPR doesn’t cover dead people.

GDPR isn't really the issue. There's still a duty of confidence.
You can't put someones medical records up for display just because they are dead.

Hellokitty1212 · 14-01-2021 07:59PM

Effects wrote: »

GDPR isn't really the issue. There's still a duty of confidence.
You can't put someones medical records up for display just because they are dead.

And that’s why his defenders can make up any old crap as the truth can’t be told.

BattleCorp · 14-01-2021 08:01PM

Effects wrote: »

GDPR isn't really the issue. There's still a duty of confidence.
You can't put someones medical records up for display just because they are dead.

Would his family be entitled to them when he is dead? I probably doubt it.

BattleCorp · 14-01-2021 08:12PM

Effects wrote: »

He'd already been shot when he swung the knife at the cops.

Then he was a slow learner.

mynamejeff · 14-01-2021 08:13PM

Effects wrote: »

He'd already been shot when he swung the knife at the cops.

are you suggesting that the garda were not acting in immediate self defence ?

BattleCorp · 14-01-2021 08:14PM

Effects wrote: »

Dunno, might go to next of kin if requested. I'm not sure though.
I've received medical files for deceased next of kin in the past.

Imagine the family asking for the medical records to solve an argument on boards.

frozenfrozen · 14-01-2021 08:15PM

Effects wrote: »

He'd already been shot when he swung the knife at the cops.

Based on your technical analysis of the footage which you couldn't stand behind for even a second when I questioned it?

weldoninhio · 14-01-2021 08:21PM

BattleCorp wrote: »

Imagine the family asking for the medical records to solve an argument on boards.

I don’t think that$ the r€a$on the family would be looking for m€dical r€cord$

BattleCorp · 14-01-2021 08:23PM

weldoninhio wrote: »

I don’t think that$ the r€a$on the family would be looking for m€dical r€cord$

I see what you did there.

Personally I don't think it makes a jot of difference if he was mentally ill or not. He was shot for his actions, not his state of mind.

givyjoe · 14-01-2021 08:25PM

Effects wrote: »

He'd already been shot when he swung the knife at the cops.

That's because he was attempting to enter the house, you know, with a knife, after he had beaten up a shopkeeper. I mean, who doesn't like a good hostage situation.

tayto lover · 14-01-2021 08:36PM

Effects wrote: »

I'm suggesting you should read what the Garda sources are saying.
As the sources are confidential, whether you choose to believe what they are saying is true or not is up to you.

Why all the cryptic stuff?

tayto lover · 14-01-2021 08:41PM

Effects wrote: »

There's nothing cryptic about it. Garda sources are usually confidential because they aren't supposed to be commenting on cases in such a manner, but feel the information would benefit public knowledge.

Have you a link to what they said?

14-01-2021 08:49PM

Effects wrote: »

I don't think I read your post, which is probably why I didn't respond.

Look, there's zero proof so far that he wasn't shot before he swung the knife. So I can say what I like about it and can't be proven wrong.

We'll leave making stuff up to suit agenda to others.

The man got shot while attacking armed Gardai with a knife. And died.
Theyre the only facts we know.

Burkie1203 · 14-01-2021 08:51PM

Murmurings on social media quoting the solicitor that the independent PM produced some different findings to the state pathologist.

Burkie1203 · 14-01-2021 08:57PM

Effects wrote: »

That’s usually the case, so nothing out of the ordinary.

Yeah but it will fuel the fire a bit.

Herald have a full-page article today headline "gardai should apologise" and quotes a load of Africans saying same.

14-01-2021 08:58PM

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Yeah but it will fuel the fire a bit.

Herald have a full-page article today headline "gardai should apologise" and quotes a load of Africans saying same.

Imagine my shock.

nullzero · 14-01-2021 09:10PM

Effects wrote: »

I don't think I read your post, which is probably why I didn't respond.

Look, there's zero proof so far that he wasn't shot before he swung the knife. So I can say what I like about it and can't be proven wrong.

What's your hypothesis then?

Gardai shot George Nkencho for no good reason?

Were there motivating factors for the Gardai to do this? Is it because An Garda Síochána is an institutionally racist organisation?
Or do Gardai just love shooting people with mental health issues regardless of their skin colour?

Sierra Oscar · 14-01-2021 09:14PM

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Hmmm well Mr Justice Barr did highlight in 2006 that it was highly relevant the officers dealing with John Carty had no specific training in dealing with mental illness. He also pointed out that it is highly desirable to do so

Its covered extensively in Mr Justice Barrs reccomendations that mental illness is of course relevant in siege situations.

The recommendations of the report have been implemented, with specialist firearms officers in An Garda Síochána being trained in hostage negotiation alongside there being specialist crisis negotiators on hand within divisions to be deployed to hostage situations. Dealing with mentally ill persons forms part of this training.

It's a moot point regardless though considering this wasn't a hostage situation and the fact that firearms officers are still trained to specifically prevent a situation from escalating into a hostage scenario where harm may come to others.

Garda negotiators called on 89 times in 11-month period

Let's not try and pretend that Gardaí do not have capabilities to respond to hostage situations or to deal with mentally deranged persons. They do. Unfortunately the training doesn't always prevent lives from being lost.

George Nkencho shooting *Mod warning Added to OP*

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George Nkencho shooting Mod warning Added to OP