Is this manipulation or am I wrong?

seasidedub · 14-01-2021 11:18AM #1

I have been single a long time due to divorce and raising a child who is now an adult. As per many on boards I have been trying to find a partner and using online routes to same. A few dates, some lovely people, one situation I thought was going somewhere but didn't - the usual stuff that goes on. October 2020 met a man via a dating app, we met for a date asap, it went more than well and we have been seeing each other regularly since then. Neither of us are seeing anyone else - the amount of time we have been spending together would preclude that. He lives 2.5 hours away and drives down for 3 to 5 days at a time, sometimes going home for only 2 days and back again. Both of our jobs facilitate that. He mainly comes here because I happen to live in an area of high amenity which suits our outdoors lifestyle, but I know he is not living with anyone on the QT or has a secret family etc.

There is physical and intellectual attraction, shared interests, the time together goes too fast, never awkwardness, he is actively willing to "plan" - activities, trips when possible again etc. It has been one of the happiest periods of my life. I would say I am "in love" but love itself is something different of course, however I felt we were moving towards that and I felt he felt the same. At Christmas and since, he stated he hoped it was the first Christmas of many etc.

I am qualified in 2 areas of healthcare. One = decent money, plenty of jobs, and my current job is fulfilling and gives me a lot of free time as I do 3x13 hour shifts. Two = modestly better money, rarely any jobs, Mon-Fri, 9-5ish.

Recently had a job offer in area two. Not even sure myself do I want it, but when I brought it up over the past weekend he basically said, coolly and straightforwardly that it would be over for us if I took it. He wants to be with somebody who can spend the kind of time with him that I can currently, and refuted the idea that people who believe they have something going, work around things etc.

He then started to talk about how he needed to be with someone attractive to him, with shared activities, financially independent (he is actually wealthy but got burned in a divorce and one assumes does not want that again), has time to spend with him and a couple of other things which I can't even remember as I was becoming shocked. It felt like I was not chosen by him when we met due to genuine mutual attraction, but due to me fitting a set of criteria which he has "fixed" for himself. When I said that the amount of women in his preferred age group who would have 3 to 5 days a week to spend with him, be financially independent, not have possibly small kids, was tiny, he refuted that and said it was no problem.

I am still kind of in shock. I am quite independent. I want a partner to share my life with, but I cannot have a gun held to my head in this way. I do not even know if I want the new job (it is on hold due to Covid so buying me time anyway). I love having the free time I have. For example I am off today and going swimming, walking, doing all the stuff I love. Tomorrow on for 3 days but then I will have 5 off and he will be back again. But I cannot help feeling that it would be wrong to make a decision based on him and now I just don't feel the same about him. But, I have genuinely been happier with him than with any man due to our shared interests and the fun we have.

Background to him is - own business which has been built to a stage where it requires minimal input, thus the free time. Adult children except for one 13 year old. The custody arrangement is Wednesdays and Friday evening to Saturday evening, thus a "weekend" relationship does not work for him and why he wants somebody with my kind of free time. I do see him for entire weekends sometimes, if that child is away or engaged in something. But generally we would see each other from Saturday night to Wednesday.

I am so disappointed as I really thought this was it. Of course I never broached long term plans as it is only about 14-15 weeks and way too soon, but it seemed to have such potential.

ManOfMystery · 14-01-2021 11:45AM

Definitely a big red flag. I'd be wary of moving forward with this one if he's also unable to compromise on something at this early stage of the relationship.

Regardless of whether you want the job or not (and it sounds like you don't really), his immediate reaction of "my way or the highway" is not a very positive one.

I could understand it if you were suggesting suddenly moving a huge distance away - switching to night shifts - taking on huge amounts of overtime - etc. They would present fairly subtantial impediments to continuing your relationship in any kind of reasonable way and he would probably be well within his right to question the effect it would have.

But all you've done is discuss an offer to move to a 9-5 role, which as you've already stated, is the most regular and common hours that the majority of the population work. It still leaves you every evening and weekend free and certainly isn't out of the ordinary.

I think you're correct in that he actively is looking for someone who fits his scheduling criteria, rather than just liking you for being you. This stubborn and immediate reaction certainly confirms that, and it's also worrying that he can feels he can so calmly just drop you like that without any kind of sense of loss on his part.

YellowLead · 14-01-2021 12:28PM

Hi OP, to answer your question - is it manipulation? I would say no. He has laid his cards on the table and been clear about what he wants/needs.

Is this the end of your relationship? I would imagine so. Clearly he is not very invested in you as a person if he is willing to let this end should you take a role with more standard office hours and lessen your availability to him.

If this was 5 years into a relationship a discussion might be worth having, but you definitely don’t want a relationship with somebody who after 3 months or so gives you an ultimatum based on your career choice.

I know it’s hard to hear - but it’s only been a few months and really impossible to determine whether somebody is your forever person, you don’t know them well enough. It’s very easy to get invested too soon, especially if the other person is showing signs of being committed. But you have to be realistic when you are still getting to know somebody. It’s a blessing in disguise this happened now, imagine after another year had you been considering a job offer and he came out with this clanger.

strandroad · 14-01-2021 12:29PM

He probably likes you alright, but you're correct, it sounds like a sunny days only relationship to him, where you are a convenient companion rather than a real partner.

Any serious change in circumstances on either side (someone becomes ill, anything to do with the children, financial trouble) that would affect the comfort of your time together and the arrangement could dissolve in a matter of days.

Great for passing time, but not for serious commitment.

woodchuck · 14-01-2021 01:57PM

OP I certainly wouldn't be making any career decisions based on a 3 month relationship. It sounds like a good career move for you, so try to think what decision you'd make if you were single and go with that.

It sounds like this guy is looking for someone that seamlessly slots into his schedule. If he's not willing to even attempt to work around your new work schedule, then good riddance. As somebody said, you're talking about switching to a 9-5 job... it's not exactly an unusual or unworkable situation!

Even if you decide to stick with your current job, I'd be seriously rethinking the relationship based on his attitude. If he's being this inflexible now, imagine how he'll be in the future when bigger issues will naturally crop up.

Caranica · 14-01-2021 02:14PM

To me it is almost like he's testing the water. If he "wins" this one I'd worry about what he would do next. It's coercive control. Would be bad in a long term relationship but absolutely unacceptable in something so new.

I'm also perplexed as to how you've been carrying on this relationship in periods of level 5 lockdown. 2.5 hour journeys for non essential purposes? No home visits allowed?

LegacyUser · 14-01-2021 02:29PM

I don't believe it is manipulation, but I do believe that he's being inflexible and is not invested in the relationship in the same way as you are. It's crap to find this out when you've gone this far down the road, but also lucky that you've found out now before it got any more serious.

Cut him loose and start looking again. There are decent people out there, you just need to be lucky and look under the right rock.

YellowLead · 14-01-2021 02:40PM

Caranica wrote: »

To me it is almost like he's testing the water. If he "wins" this one I'd worry about what he would do next. It's coercive control. Would be bad in a long term relationship but absolutely unacceptable in something so new.

I'm also perplexed as to how you've been carrying on this relationship in periods of level 5 lockdown. 2.5 hour journeys for non essential purposes? No home visits allowed?

It could be support bubbles - allowable for those who live alone. Not sure why this judgement is necessary given it’s not OPs query here.

seasidedub · 14-01-2021 03:14PM

It is support bubbles, I have one child, 23, lives abroad. I live alone. One sibling with pre-existing condition, sees only their spouse currently. Parents passed away. Am in full PPE at work. According to a Government notification in the paper, people in my situation are allowed a support bubble and one of those people can be from anywhere on the Island of Ireland.

seasidedub · 14-01-2021 03:23PM

Thanks all for the replies so far. Often with these types of posts you are not really looking for an "answer" as such, just to get a feeling of what others might think about the given situation.

I guess I know what I need to do. I'm definitely not a crier, but the tears are in my eyes as I type this. I can hear my the crack in my heart. He was so lovely, and it's so hard to meet someone at this age to be honest. No judgment, but a lot of men of 51 are happy to be with 37 year olds and start another family. We were the same age, he wanted that. We are both really fit and look younger, he was big and gorgeous, fun and chatty and always with a joke or banter. We climbed every mountain from Djouce to Lugnaquilla and came down and cooked, he was teaching me chess, and both had loads of energy. There was never a dull moment, and it seemed everything was going in the right direction.

But even when I queried as to in theory whether a Friday night to Monday morning thing would work if he could change the custody arrangement (he seemingly cannot..... and it is an acrimonious break) he said no.

I am very amicably divorced and have a good and appropriate relationship with my child's dad, never any custody issues, it was joint custody and worked super well for us. So, hard for me to understand the difficulties and issues other people go through.

I will heal, but can feel the sinking of my heart too when I realise if I want a relationship I've got to get out there - again - when I am ready. Don't know do I have the strength.

Gruffalux · 14-01-2021 03:36PM

Maybe give it another while. If you are really enjoying time together why not? If more evidence of him being stubborn and bossy becomes evident then you can always decide later.
Its not like you are in a hurry to have a child or in need of someone to settle down with. Maybe if you keep in mind that the ground is not as firm as you might like you could rub along for a while and enjoy his company, I suppose what I am saying is accepting no strings attached.
But you will know what you can cope with best. And you might meet someone else...

YellowLead · 14-01-2021 03:46PM

Hi OP, I missed the part of your second post where you discussed his child and custody arrangements.

I can understand if you were at the very start of chatting/seeing each other only a few weeks why he would end things over this. Children come first and up-ending their lives to suit a new relationship tends not to be on the cards for most. I wouldn’t get into a new relationship if the times when I could see the other person (looking beyond covid) were minimal as I would need more.

However I do feel it’s a real shame on his part given the 3 months or so he has invested in the relationship so far that he would be so dismissive straight up, and not even want to discuss how things might work.

I know it’s really tough to find relationships as you get older but it sounds like this man isn’t willing to try and compromise which is not a good sign of things to come, and a sign of incompatibility with you it’s better to have discovered now.

Allow yourself grieve this if it does end and know that there will be other opportunities, it all takes time and patience.

Sonic the Shaghog · 14-01-2021 04:56PM

To be honest it's not manipulation.

I'd go only so far as say he's being awkward.

However in saying that I just read your update. You wanted him to change around his custody agreement to suit the days you'd suggested, if you took the new job.

So in fact it does seem between distance, work and custody it is actually awkward to meet up and maybe he is being realistic and doesn't fancy either of ye doing 6 hour round trips for a day, night etc

Being able to drive 3 hours is grand when you know your there for a few days.

He might be right tbh.

seasidedub · 14-01-2021 05:45PM

Sonic the Shaghog wrote: »

To be honest it's not manipulation.

I'd go only so far as say he's being awkward.

However in saying that I just read your update. You wanted him to change around his custody agreement to suit the days you'd suggested, if you took the new job.

So in fact it does seem between distance, work and custody it is actually awkward to meet up and maybe he is being realistic and doesn't fancy either of ye doing 6 hour round trips for a day, night etc

Being able to drive 3 hours is grand when you know your there for a few days.

He might be right tbh.

No I did not actually ask him to change the custody arrangements nor had I even gone as far as thinking that was the way to go. That is all his personal stuff to arrange as he sees fit, and I agreed early on that the 13 year old takes priority. It was just that he said even full weekends are not what he wants, he wants stretches of at least 4 days at a go and if I take the job that won't happen, so he's off.

Sonic the Shaghog · 14-01-2021 06:13PM

seasidedub wrote: »

No I did not actually ask him to change the custody arrangements nor had I even gone as far as thinking that was the way to go. That is all his personal stuff to arrange as he sees fit, and I agreed early on that the 13 year old takes priority. It was just that he said even full weekends are not what he wants, he wants stretches of at least 4 days at a go and if I take the job that won't happen, so he's off.

But what's a full weekend? He drives 3 hours of Friday or Saturday and home Sunday night? Pain in the arse tbh

While he's pigeon holing himself, it's his choice. You'll just have to tell him fair enough and best of luck

YellowLead · 14-01-2021 06:16PM

I can see his perspective too - personally I wouldn’t get involved with somebody who lived so far away from me for that same reason. It worked for him at the time because of your current work arrangement and perhaps he assumed you were always going to have your current set up and that’s why the long distance was acceptable.

He might see no future possible with you if you take the role, no matter how much he likes you and enjoys your company - it’s only been a few months and I guess he was playing it by ear.

I have a friend who has been seeing somebody who lives 3 hours away for a few months and they both have kids and only see each other two weekends a month and that is super hard for him and possibly unsustainable in the long run.

Doesn’t make it any easier of course - but it sounds like you both have different needs/expectations and better it ends now before you get in any deeper emotionally. I don’t think anyone is to blame really. He is probably hurting as much as you but just being honest/realistic about his own needs.

seasidedub · 14-01-2021 06:52PM

Yeah, totally get what you are saying here. At this stage, 15 weeks in, we are both playing it by ear, it's fair to say. I also admit it's the happiest I've been with any man, particularly due to the huge shared interests we have and how we are always doing something and busy. I completely see that I had the role I had when he met me and it suited what he was looking for and if that changes, at 15 weeks in, he's not invested enough to put in a lot of driving or have me drive for just 2 days. It just bothered me that it seemed so easy for him to say it, he was very cool about it and said more or less straight out that it's no problem to find another one who will fit the criteria he's fixed for himself. It did not tally with the very loving behaviour he has been demonstrating. It was the callousness that shook me.

YellowLead · 14-01-2021 07:00PM

That’s really hard OP - when you think one thing about a person and they turn out differently - you question your own judgement and that’s never a good path to go down.

Could you maybe be imagining some of the callousness however?
You said ‘ When I said that the amount of women in his preferred age group who would have 3 to 5 days a week to spend with him, be financially independent, not have possibly small kids, was tiny, he refuted that and said it was no problem.’
This sounds like he only discussed finding somebody else when you tried to point out to him he would find it hard to find someone else which is a fair defense.

Perhaps you both said things you didn’t mean in the heat of the moment. I would hope that he would be kind in his approach, as well as practical. Try and end things on a good footing and without bitterness - it will help your recovery/moving on.

Sonic the Shaghog · 14-01-2021 07:04PM

To be honest the "you'll have trouble finding someone like me" could be just as easily spun to be manipulation too. Even tho I know you don't mean that way. It's just it's easy to take things wrong when we hear something we don't like

seasidedub · 14-01-2021 07:11PM

The subject of somebody else came up when, without prompting from me, he started talking about how he needed to be with somebody attractive to him, financially independent, with shared interests and plenty of time. I was a bit taken aback and said that the pool of 45 to 50 year old women in that category would be small, which he denied. This did indeed make me feel that he had met me and chosen to continue not due to just genuine mutual attraction but because he had sounded me out in conversation and gauged that I fitted his criteria.

I don't deny anyone's right to have criteria in terms of what they are looking for, but he just seemed particularly fixed on it, whereas I'd sort of feel that, yeah, I might want say a tall guy, but if one came along with whom I just clicked, his height would be a non issue.

I also get that if someone has had a bad experience of say a long distance relationship or a relationship where someone was very dependent upon them for money, they may make a conscious decision to not go down that road again and be very fixed in terms of what they want.

Still, it all took me aback.

strandroad · 14-01-2021 07:22PM

I agree that it sounds unfeeling, and exposes a way of thinking that is not really about a long term relationship, warts and all, but rather about lifestyle augmentation.

Would he be the kind of person who is used to good things in life, having certain quality standards, opportunities coming his way etc?

YellowLead · 14-01-2021 07:24PM

seasidedub wrote: »

I don't deny anyone's right to have criteria in terms of what they are looking for, but he just seemed particularly fixed on it, whereas I'd sort of feel that, yeah, I might want say a tall guy, but if one came along with whom I just clicked, his height would be a non issue.

To be fair something physical like height is a side criteria generally - the amount of time you can spend with somebody is usually a deal breaker. I don’t think you can compare the two and I don’t think you can assume he was only with you because of your availability. He liked you too, but sometimes a deal breaker is a deal breaker. It’s sad for you both but nobody’s fault.

Augme · 14-01-2021 07:38PM

I can definitely see his side. I'd be the same. Why bother "dating" someone who you barely actually see? Especially when they seen happy enough to see less of you.

As for you saying that this means he doesn't really like you and he is only with you because you fit certain criteria, a bit of irony in that for me.

At the end of the days you've basically turned around and said to him "so I'm thinking about taking a job I've no real interest in and one I'm not that pushed about and it means we are going to be able to see each other far less. Hope you don't mind." I'm genuinely curious as to how did you expect him to react? And what kind of signal did you expect that to send to him?

If I was giving him advice I'd have told him he needs to have a bit more self respect for himself and he has to walk away rather than even give you the ultimatum. It seems to me you made it fairly clear how low down the priority list he is when you've prioritized a job you aren't even that arsed about over him.

seasidedub · 14-01-2021 07:42PM

strandroad wrote: »

I agree that it sounds unfeeling, and exposes a way of thinking that is not really about a long term relationship, warts and all, but rather about lifestyle augmentation.

Would he be the kind of person who is used to good things in life, having certain quality standards, opportunities coming his way etc?

Yes, he is absolutely used to the good things in life. And has been lucky as well as hardworking in terms of opportunities.

seasidedub · 14-01-2021 07:51PM

Augme wrote: »

I can definitely see his side. I'd be the same. Why bother "dating" someone who you barely actually see? Especially when they seen happy enough to see less of you.

As for you saying that this means he doesn't really like you and he is only with you because you fit certain criteria, a bit of irony in that for me.

At the end of the days you've basically turned around and said to him "so I'm thinking about taking a job I've no real interest in and one I'm not that pushed about and it means we are going to be able to see each other far less. Hope you don't mind." I'm genuinely curious as to how did you expect him to react? And what kind of signal did you expect that to send to him?

If I was giving him advice I'd have told him he needs to have a bit more self respect for himself and he has to walk away rather than even give you the ultimatum. It seems to me you made it fairly clear how low down the priority list he is when you've prioritized a job you aren't even that arsed about over him.

Thanks for this, because it is really helpful to see another side of it too.

My response would be, in the initial time when a couple are still dating before any moving in etc., would most people not see each other mainly at weekends? Possibly I am wrong, but as most of the country operates on a Mon to Fri schedule weekends are big meet up times. So, I felt if we became a weekend couple at least until we decided whether we were taking a "next step" that was normal or more or less normal.

I would not be happy about seeing him less, I love seeing him, but it is an opportunity for me and I just did not like the feeling of a gun to my head in terms of taking it or not. I am "arsed" about the job, but unsure, 2 different things. I do like the time off which I have too.

He honestly is a priority to me, my child is grown up and I really can prioritise a partner, but it still felt like a gun to my head. I would do a huge amount for this fledgling relationship - drive, put whatever time I could into it, but I hated the feeling that there was to be no discussion, none.

Augme · 14-01-2021 08:06PM

seasidedub wrote: »

Thanks for this, because it is really helpful to see another side of it too.

My response would be, in the initial time when a couple are still dating before any moving in etc., would most people not see each other mainly at weekends? Possibly I am wrong, but as most of the country operates on a Mon to Fri schedule weekends are big meet up times. So, I felt if we became a weekend couple at least until we decided whether we were taking a "next step" that was normal or more or less normal.

I would not be happy about seeing him less, I love seeing him, but it is an opportunity for me and I just did not like the feeling of a gun to my head in terms of taking it or not. I am "arsed" about the job, but unsure, 2 different things. I do like the time off which I have too.

He honestly is a priority to me, my child is grown up and I really can prioritise a partner, but it still felt like a gun to my head. I would do a huge amount for this fledgling relationship - drive, put whatever time I could into it, but I hated the feeling that there was to be no discussion, none.

Unless I misread it, he has his kid on a weekend so that rules out a weekend relationship. You both basically have Sunday to spend one day a week together in your new job?

Now most couples do start out like, but the reality is when you start seeing X amount of each other and 3 months in one side turns around and basically says they have made the decision to change their circumstances, for no really good reason, to see far less of the other then my attitude to that for the person on the receiving end is "take the hint, they ain't that interested in you."

My guess is that when you told him that he reacted in anger and felt hurt and insulted. As I said, I wouldn't blame him. You claim to really likhim, and I don't see why you'd lie, but I also think your actions towards him are completely contradictory towards that. Looking at your actions you seem a bit "meh" about him.

JeffKenna · 14-01-2021 08:19PM

seasidedub wrote: »

Thanks for this, because it is really helpful to see another side of it too.

My response would be, in the initial time when a couple are still dating before any moving in etc., would most people not see each other mainly at weekends? Possibly I am wrong, but as most of the country operates on a Mon to Fri schedule weekends are big meet up times. So, I felt if we became a weekend couple at least until we decided whether we were taking a "next step" that was normal or more or less normal.

I would not be happy about seeing him less, I love seeing him, but it is an opportunity for me and I just did not like the feeling of a gun to my head in terms of taking it or not. I am "arsed" about the job, but unsure, 2 different things. I do like the time off which I have too.

He honestly is a priority to me, my child is grown up and I really can prioritise a partner, but it still felt like a gun to my head. I would do a huge amount for this fledgling relationship - drive, put whatever time I could into it, but I hated the feeling that there was to be no discussion, none.

How can you become a weekend couple. He has his kid on Friday night to Saturday evening. You two are a three hour drive apart. It makes no sense whatsoever. You say he is a priority to you but I can't see anything that shows it.

seasidedub · 14-01-2021 08:25PM

JeffKenna wrote: »

How can you become a weekend couple. He has his kid on Friday night to Saturday evening. You two are a three hour drive apart. It makes no sense whatsoever. You say he is a priority to you but I can't see anything that shows it.

I meant if his circumstances changed - there was a lot of "hypotheticals", as I was trying to figure out if there might be anyway to work around it if I did take the job. Look, I like this guy so much that if he told me he was taking a job in NYC for 6 months and would I wait and fly over when I could, then my answer is yes, I will give it a go. No guarantees, but I will give it a go. When I presented different scenarios to him, it was all a blank "no". That threw me.

JeffKenna · 14-01-2021 08:35PM

seasidedub wrote: »

I meant if his circumstances changed - there was a lot of "hypotheticals", as I was trying to figure out if there might be anyway to work around it if I did take the job. Look, I like this guy so much that if he told me he was taking a job in NYC for 6 months and would I wait and fly over when I could, then my answer is yes, I will give it a go. No guarantees, but I will give it a go. When I presented different scenarios to him, it was all a blank "no". That threw me.

But his circumstances can't change with a 13 year old. I don't really get what throwing grand gestures about New York around is about, all that proves is that you're comfortable with a long distance relationship. Did you present the scenario to him of not taking the job and instead applying for a similar job closer to him? Not saying you should of course as it's very early in the relationship but it would be interesting to throw all the cards on the table when you like him so much.

Augme · 14-01-2021 09:13PM

seasidedub wrote: »

I meant if his circumstances changed - there was a lot of "hypotheticals", as I was trying to figure out if there might be anyway to work around it if I did take the job. Look, I like this guy so much that if he told me he was taking a job in NYC for 6 months and would I wait and fly over when I could, then my answer is yes, I will give it a go. No guarantees, but I will give it a go. When I presented different scenarios to him, it was all a blank "no". That threw me.

Asking a guy you've been seen 3 months to alter his long term set in stone parenting schedule because you want to change jobs to a role you're a bit on the fence about and when he says no, you accuse him of manipulation? Again, can't help but see a bit of irony here too.

I don't mean to be offensive, but are you traditionally this stubborn? I'm stubborn myself at times.

Given how much you say you like him, and I believe that. I am wondering if subconsciously you "created" this scenario as a "test" to see how much he likes you? I.e. if he was willing to give in to your demands he would have "passed" and everything would be great, but since the hasn't you see it that he has "failed" and now are assuming he doesnt actually like you that much. Can't help but feel you'd have never taken the job even if he did give in as well.

Maybe you are letting your stubbornness rule your head, and heart, over this.

Sonic the Shaghog · 14-01-2021 09:34PM

Wait I just read he has his child from Friday to Saturday evening.

So if you took the job he's going from driving 3 hours there to spend 3 to 5 days with you and 3 hours home to

Driving 3 hours there to arrive say 9pm Saturday and would have to drive 3 hours home Sunday night/early Monday?

Ah here I'm only 31 and I wouldn't have that! Even if I liked a person I'd seriously begin to resent going to them after a while of that and not only that I fully agree with the above poster, I'd definitely be thinking you don't have a semblance of interest to be cutting time together down to that!

He's dead right to want to end it, better off single than being drained from all that going for a night with someone! It's backwards your relationship would be going

I mean going off what you've said, the only actual option here is he changes his custody arrangements to suit you and that's most likely not going to happen. Are you hoping he'll just "have to" eventually cause it seems like it?

If I'm being honest, it's you that being completely unrealistic to the hard reality of the situation that would unfold and I can see his position 100%

Is this manipulation or am I wrong?

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