The Vaccine

Fighting Tao · 22-12-2020 08:54PM

Quiner wrote: »

Can you explain the specific cases of Spain, Italy, France, the Philippines, Peru and the US where, as I keep saying, they are required everywhere. You claim it is an effective method. Then why, with masks everywhere, are the cases and deaths so high in those countries?

They are just one layer of the onion. You know that. I know they. Everyone knows it.

If I had covid, would you mind me sitting beside you on a bus without a mask on me?

Quiner · 22-12-2020 08:59PM

Fighting Tao wrote: »

They are just one layer of the onion. You know that. I know they. Everyone knows it.

If I had covid, would you mind me sitting beside you on a bus without a mask on me?

So the situation in those countries doesn't point to masks and harsh measures being ineffective?

Wouldn't mind at all.

aido79 · 22-12-2020 09:04PM

Quiner wrote: »

True. So wouldn't it be better to focus on the importance of social distancing instead of ineffective masks?

Not to the extent that they are required in other countries? And mostly recommended instead of mandated.

Do you understand that there are situations where social distancing isn't possible?

Fighting Tao · 22-12-2020 09:06PM

Quiner wrote: »

So the situation in those countries doesn't point to masks and harsh measures being ineffective?

Wouldn't mind at all.

I take it that you didn’t understand the onion talk. :rolleyes:

Quiner · 22-12-2020 10:34PM

aido79 wrote: »

Do you understand that there are situations where social distancing isn't possible?

I do, and masks have made no difference in those countries where it isn't possible.

aido79 · 22-12-2020 11:04PM

Quiner wrote: »

I do, and masks have made no difference in those countries where it isn't possible.

Ok I'll bite. What's your solution to all of this?

Quiner · 22-12-2020 11:50PM

aido79 wrote: »

Ok I'll bite. What's your solution to all of this?

Not masks. They have been proven to be ineffective, or to be of extremely limited effectiveness. Who was it again who described the definition of insanity?

Focus on the importance of social distancing. When people wear masks they tend not to be as mindful of social distancing. That's why Anders Tegnell hasn't recommended that they be mandatory. Yes, they are now recommending, but not mandating, that they be worn on public transport at certain times. But that's completely different to what's going on in those countries I mentioned.

Why are the numbers, both cases and deaths, so high in the countries where masks are mandatory everywhere?

22-12-2020 11:57PM

So you're recommending we follow the guidance of a person who is responsible for Sweden's pretty disastrous handling of the virus? You think that's a logical step?

22-12-2020 11:58PM

Quiner wrote: »

Why are the numbers, both cases and deaths, so high in the countries where masks are mandatory everywhere?

I thought these numbers were being artificially inflated as part of the conspiracy?
Now you're saying they are "high"?

Your conspiracies are contradicting thenselves.

Quiner · 23-12-2020 12:05AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

So you're recommending we follow the guidance of a person who is responsible for Sweden's pretty disastrous handling of the virus? You think that's a logical step?

Should we follow Fauci who is overseeing 3,000 deaths a day, apparently? And who has also bankrupted the US. Or Pedro Sánchez in Spain where the numbers are through the roof?

Quiner · 23-12-2020 12:06AM

King Mob wrote: »

I thought these numbers were being artificially inflated as part of the conspiracy?
Now you're saying they are "high"?

Your conspiracies are contradicting thenselves.

Still waiting for that answer.

The inflated numbers are high. Yes.

aido79 · 23-12-2020 12:09AM

Quiner wrote: »

Not masks. They have been proven to be ineffective, or to be of extremely limited effectiveness. Who was it again who described the definition of insanity?

Focus on the importance of social distancing. When people wear masks they tend not to be as mindful of social distancing. That's why Anders Tegnell hasn't recommended that they be mandatory. Yes, they are now recommending, but not mandating, that they be worn on public transport at certain times. But that's completely different to what's going on in those countries I mentioned.

Why are the numbers, both cases and deaths, so high in the countries where masks are mandatory everywhere?

And what about situations where social distancing isn't possible?
Anders Tegnell has lost the confidence of the Swedish government and they no longer take his advice so why do you think he's the person to listen to? Because it suits your way of thinking?

There are plenty of other factors that have effects on the spread of covid19. Masks worn in public places don't have any reflection on what people are doing where masks aren't mandatory such as in private houses. As we've seen one of the biggests reasons for the high number of cases in Ireland is people spreading it in the family home.

23-12-2020 12:10AM

Quiner wrote: »

Still waiting for that answer.

Still waiting for yours to a dozen or so questions.

Quiner wrote: »

The inflated numbers are high. Yes.

But you are saying that they are actually high in cou tries that use masks.
That doesn't make sense and it's contradictory.

Also your claims of the numbers being inflated have been shown to be a complete lie on your part.
You ran away from those points and questions, remember.

23-12-2020 12:12AM

Quiner wrote: »

Should we follow Fauci who is overseeing 3,000 deaths a day, apparently? And who has also bankrupted the US. Or Pedro Sánchez in Spain where the numbers are through the roof?

The US government have actively ignored the advice of Fauci and much of the time have actively done the opposite of it. Eg Trump refuses to encourage mask usage, encouraging businesses to open up and running rallies. I'm pretty unclear on how the Spanish government have handled it so I'm not gonna comment on it although I'd suspect you don't know much about it based on your lack of knowledge of the US handling of it.

Pretty sure you'll find both myself and King Mob criticising the US handling btw.

Quiner · 23-12-2020 12:18AM

King Mob wrote: »

Still waiting for yours to a dozen or so questions.

But you are saying that they are actually high in cou tries that use masks.
That doesn't make sense and it's contradictory.

Also your claims of the numbers being inflated have been shown to be a complete lie on your part.
You ran away from those points and questions, remember.

I said the death count was inflated in the US and England and surmised that it was inflated in other countries as well.

They can be inflated, but still high. The US figure of 6% having died directly of covid is still a lot of people. Their deaths are to be mourned. The issue is when it's claimed that the other 94% died of covid. Again, all deaths are sad, but it's not accurate to say they died directly of covid. But we were led to believe that that was the case for months. There may have been reasons for that such as analysing the data, but we're almost a year into this and people are still insisting on describing the deaths as 'died (directly) of covid'.

23-12-2020 12:24AM

Quiner wrote: »

I said the death count was inflated in the US and England and surmised that it was inflated in other countries as well.

Yes. And this was shown to be a lie. You ran away from those points because you are not honest and can't defend your false claims.

Quiner wrote: »

They can be inflated, but still high. The US figure of 6% having died directly of covid is still a lot of people.

But it's a contradiction on a lot of levels now.
You are saying the number is both high and low.
You are also saying that the lizard people behind the conspiracy are inflating the numbers, thus showing that masks etc don't work which exposes their conspiracy.
That doesn't make sense and it's another clear example of you having not thought about the theory fed to you.

Quiner · 23-12-2020 12:31AM

King Mob wrote: »

Yes. And this was shown to be a lie. You ran away from those points because you are not honest and can't defend your false claims.

But it's a contradiction on a lot of levels now.
You are saying the number is both high and low.
You are also saying that the lizard people behind the conspiracy are inflating the numbers, thus showing that masks etc don't work which exposes their conspiracy.
That doesn't make sense and it's another clear example of you having not thought about the theory fed to you.

So Professor Carl Heneghan was lying in that paper he co-authored and which I posted a link to? Hancock didn't order an urgent review into the way deaths were being counted in England. I also linked to an article from the Guardian that confirmed that he did order the review. You ask for sources, and then when you're provided with them you dismiss them, or insist that they were never provided. You can't win.

I said that the death count in the US and England was inflated. There are issues with false positives with the testing, but on the whole the case numbers are pretty accurate. I'm not arguing that people haven't died with covid. I'm arguing that it's inaccurate to claim that 1.5 million died of (which means directly) covid. But people insist on saying that that is the case.

Quiner · 23-12-2020 12:38AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The US government have actively ignored the advice of Fauci and much of the time have actively done the opposite of it. Eg Trump refuses to encourage mask usage, encouraging businesses to open up and running rallies. I'm pretty unclear on how the Spanish government have handled it so I'm not gonna comment on it although I'd suspect you don't know much about it based on your lack of knowledge of the US handling of it.

Pretty sure you'll find both myself and King Mob criticising the US handling btw.

Not really. 85% to 90% of Americans say they wear masks in public. I linked to an article in the New York Times which gave the figures. And Fauci is big on masks. So they're doing that. He also wanted a lockdown, and they did that. Fauci wants businesses to stay shut indefinitely. And he's getting his way in lots of states. Trump held a few rallies. That's it. The American decided to ignore Fauci re traveling for Thanksgiving. It wasn't the government. And then there's the fact that Fauci has been a disaster since the beginning. But that's beside the point.

I can tell you how they handled it. They mandated masks everywhere in May/June/July. They fly drones and helicopters over beaches to intimidate people into obeying their rules. They have extremely harsh measures in place, yet still have huge case and death numbers. Another disaster.

I don't know why you think I'm uninformed when it comes to the US.

23-12-2020 12:41AM

Quiner wrote: »

So Professor Carl Heneghan was lying in that paper he co-authored and which I posted a link to?
.

That or you(/the twitter crackpots you are copy pasting from) are misrepresenting things again.

Quiner wrote: »

I said that the death count in the US and England was inflated. There are issues with false positives with the testing, but on the whole the case numbers are pretty accurate. .

And this has been shown to be a lie when you ran away from the response to your claims.

Quiner wrote: »

I'm not arguing that people haven't died with covid. I'm arguing that it's inaccurate to claim that 1.5 million died of (which means directly) covid. But people insist on saying that that is the case.

How many people have died then?
Provide a number and a direct source that states this number with supporting evidence.

aido79 · 23-12-2020 12:46AM

Quiner wrote: »

So Professor Carl Heneghan was lying in that paper he co-authored and which I posted a link to? Hancock didn't order an urgent review into the way deaths were being counted in England. I also linked to an article from the Guardian that confirmed that he did order the review. You ask for sources, and then when you're provided with them you dismiss them, or insist that they were never provided. You can't win.

I said that the death count in the US and England was inflated. There are issues with false positives with the testing, but on the whole the case numbers are pretty accurate. I'm not arguing that people haven't died with covid. I'm arguing that it's inaccurate to claim that 1.5 million died of (which means directly) covid. But people insist on saying that that is the case.

It's not so much that Prof Carl Heneghan was lying. It's more that he was basing the paper on a study which the study's authors have said doesn't give the full picture.

https://fullfact.org/health/danish-mask-wearing-spectator/

You really need to find better sources for your information for your own sake because you are looking more and more illinformed every time you post.

It's probably a good idea to stick with how cases are being reported now rather than trying to score points on historical information. For someone so obsessed with the future you seem to look backwards alot.

Quiner · 23-12-2020 12:48AM

aido79 wrote: »

It's not so much that Prof Carl Heneghan was lying. It's more that he was basing the paper on a study which the study's authors have said doesn't give the full picture.

https://fullfact.org/health/danish-mask-wearing-spectator/

You really need to find better sources for your information for your own sake because you are looking more and more illinformed every time you post.

It's probably a good idea to stick with how cases are being reported now rather than trying to score points on historical information. For someone so obsessed with the future you seem to look backwards alot.

I wasn't referring to Professor Heneghan's thoughts on that mask study. I linked to a paper he co-authored on the way deaths were being counted in England. The paper resulted in Hancock ordering an urgent review into the way deaths were being recorded.

The paper I linked to: https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/why-no-one-can-ever-recover-from-covid-19-in-england-a-statistical-anomaly/

23-12-2020 12:52AM

Quiner wrote: »

Not really. 85% to 90% of Americans say they wear masks in public. I linked to an article in the New York Times which gave the figures. And Fauci is big on masks. So they're doing that. He also wanted a lockdown, and they did that. Fauci wants businesses to stay shut indefinitely. And he's getting his way in lots of states. Trump held a few rallies. That's it. The American decided to ignore Fauci re traveling for Thanksgiving. It wasn't the government. And then there's the fact that Fauci has been a disaster since the beginning. But that's beside the point.

I can tell you how they handled it. They mandated masks everywhere in May/June/July. They fly drones and helicopters over beaches to intimidate people into obeying their rules. They have extremely harsh measures in place, yet still have huge case and death numbers. Another disaster.

I don't know why you think I'm uninformed when it comes to the US.

The US had a lockdown, states opened at different rates but full lockdowns had been lifted in most states by the time the major waves occurred in the US, in fact they were basically on a continuous upward trajectory since the lockdown was lifted. A lot of states do now have statewide mandates to wear masks however this has varied in terms of timelines. Eg plenty have only brought them in this month. 85% sounds great in theory but that 15% can easily end up acting as superspreaders. Eg the Trump administration is viewed to be responsible for the most major outbreak in Washington DC. They didn't practise mask wearing or distancing.

Then you've got the likes of Florida which has no such mandate and a governor that is suspected the seriousness of the pandemic to bolster Trump in the election.

So your idea of the pandemic in the US and how it's been handled has huge gaps.

aido79 · 23-12-2020 01:07AM

Quiner wrote: »

I wasn't referring to Professor Heneghan's thoughts on that mask study. I linked to a paper he co-authored on the way deaths were being counted in England. The paper resulted in Hancock ordering an urgent review into the way deaths were being recorded.

The paper I linked to: https://www.cebm.net/covid-19/why-no-one-can-ever-recover-from-covid-19-in-england-a-statistical-anomaly/

Fair enough. I'm not going to defend the way England reports their deaths and he seems to have done a good thing by pointing out that mistakes were made. It's good to point out mistakes especially if it stops false information being passed on.

robinph · 23-12-2020 01:26AM

Quiner wrote:

...

So masks are being worn 24/7 in certain countries that have high rates of death and the high rate of death confirms that masks don't work.

Yet at the same time masks are not being worn all the time and are not mandated in all situations in those same countries and there are no excess deaths reported.

Also the bodies reporting the high rates of death are the same ones releasing the numbers showing that there are no excess deaths.

Masks and social distancing don't work because in the countries doing that have numbers which are rising, but the numbers are not actually rising because it's a fake virus and masks and social distancing are not neccessary.

Do you have one single point you can make without contradicting yourself within the following 10 posts? (Would limit you to only a couple of posts but I think the topic may be switched around before then)

Quiner · 23-12-2020 09:14AM

aido79 wrote: »

Fair enough. I'm not going to defend the way England reports their deaths and he seems to have done a good thing by pointing out that mistakes were made. It's good to point out mistakes especially if it stops false information being passed on.

I agree. But I would argue that the way they count deaths in England continues to be a farce since anyone who dies within 28 days of testing positive for covid there is said to have died of covid regardless of how they actually died. That's why the number of covid deaths in England is inflated and inaccurate. That's the point I've been making about '1.5 million have died of covid'. There needs to be an asterisk attached which says "includes people in England who died within 28 days of testing positive for covid".

Quiner · 23-12-2020 09:19AM

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The US had a lockdown, states opened at different rates but full lockdowns had been lifted in most states by the time the major waves occurred in the US, in fact they were basically on a continuous upward trajectory since the lockdown was lifted. A lot of states do now have statewide mandates to wear masks however this has varied in terms of timelines. Eg plenty have only brought them in this month. 85% sounds great in theory but that 15% can easily end up acting as superspreaders. Eg the Trump administration is viewed to be responsible for the most major outbreak in Washington DC. They didn't practise mask wearing or distancing.

Then you've got the likes of Florida which has no such mandate and a governor that is suspected the seriousness of the pandemic to bolster Trump in the election.

So your idea of the pandemic in the US and how it's been handled has huge gaps.

I agree that there are gaps, but I think it was Bob Redfield who said that 70% of people wearing masks for x number of weeks would be enough to crush the virus. Well 85% to 90% are wearing them and it's still out of control. They're overstating the importance of the things. They clearly are not as effective as they (the CDC) believe them to be. He said 70% would be enough. Well it's been 99% to 100% in the Philippines for the best part of a year and it still hasn't been crushed there.

Fighting Tao · 23-12-2020 09:27AM

Quiner wrote: »

I agree that there are gaps, but I think it was Bob Redfield who said that 70% of people wearing masks for x number of weeks would be enough to crush the virus. Well 85% to 90% are wearing them and it's still out of control. They're overstating the importance of the things. They clearly are not as effective as they (the CDC) believe them to be. He said 70% would be enough. Well it's been 99% to 100% in the Philippines for the best part of a year and it still hasn't been crushed there.

Are they wearing them 24/7? No. People get lax when around people they are familiar with. They don’t wear them at home. They are out talking to neighbours and friends without them. I can’t believe you are beating the same drum about masks when you know right well that they are only one of the lines of defence.

Quiner · 23-12-2020 09:34AM

Fighting Tao wrote: »

Are they wearing them 24/7? No. People get lax when around people they are familiar with. They don’t wear them at home. They are out talking to neighbours and friends without them. I can’t believe you are beating the same drum about masks when you know right well that they are only one of the lines of defence.

But my point is that they are wearing them enough for them to be somewhat effective. But this isn't the mask thread so we should probably park the discussion on masks, or perhaps it might be a good idea to create a thread on them in the Conspiracy forum.

Dr Rand Paul sums up how I feel about the things:

"It’d be one thing if we were told you have to give up your liberty, you have to give up your freedom, we’re going to save your life. But what if you have to give up all your freedoms and they’re wrong on the science?

Every one of the mandates — and you look in country after country, state after state — you look at when the mask mandates went in — the incidents went up exponentially after the mandates. Restaurants, nobody can eat in a restaurant, there’s no science behind any of that.

Middle seat missing on the airplane, you really think you’re like 12 inches from the other guy instead of six inches, it really makes a difference? None of it really makes any sense, and there’s no epidemiological evidence. You know, it’s like, ‘Wash your hands, stand six feet apart.’

There’s no evidence that that slowed down the [spread]. … The trajectory of the virus hasn’t been altered at all by any of these things. I think the vaccine will, and this is why I really despise people like the CNN Doctor [Sanjay] Gupta, who I think is committing television malpractice by saying, ‘Oh, your mask is a much better thing than the vaccine.’ Well, no, it isn’t. The masks aren’t working at all. The thing’s going through the roof and people are dying. Why would you want to discourage someone from taking a vaccine and say, ‘Oh wear the mask.’?

And the masks are different, too. The N95 mask actually does work to a certain extent, if worn properly and used [with] sterile technique. In the hospital, our doctors — I have a brother and sister who are doctors, they wear the N95 mask, and it’s kept them from getting infected — but there’s no value to the cloth mask, at all.

It’s like wearing your underwear. You might as well cut your underwear up and wear your underwear as protection. It doesn’t work."

But people clearly believe they're effective and essential. I believe they're neither effective nor essential. We'll just have to agree to disagree and discuss something else. Otherwise we'll just go round and round in circles.

faceman · 23-12-2020 09:43AM

Quiner wrote: »

A passport, but not a health passport, I would hope. Brazil is just one of several countries I'm looking at. Nothing has been decided, but the past year has been an eye opener in terms of government control and what countries to avoid (Spain, Italy, France, the US, the UK, Ireland etc).

So you’re ok with using a biometric passport to travel but not ok with using a health passport, designed to eliminate the risk of spreading a major virus?

Your biometric passport contains a microchip used to authenticate your identity

This includes facial and fingerprint identification where necessary.

And you’re ok with that?

Why?

Quiner · 23-12-2020 10:02AM

faceman wrote: »

So you’re ok with using a biometric passport to travel but not ok with using a health passport, designed to eliminate the risk of spreading a major virus?

Your biometric passport contains a microchip used to authenticate your identity

This includes facial and fingerprint identification where necessary.

And you’re ok with that?

Why?

If it was called Covid Passport Ireland and it was to be used temporarily then I would be more sympathetic to the idea. I still would not wish to use it personally, but I could understand why it would be introduced. But it's called Health Passport Ireland, not Covid Passport Ireland. It's a dangerous road to go down, in my opinion. It could result in a situation whereby a person with a cold or a runny nose, i.e. technically unhealthy, but not considered a major threat to public health, would be locked out of society because the light would flash red.

Do you see where I'm coming from?

The Vaccine

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