The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

Bass Reeves · 21-12-2020 01:47AM

Mrsmum wrote: »

Someone should make a programme where a well known Mayo or Kerry player moves into the Dublin set up and a well known Dublin player joins the Kerry or Mayo squad. It would be interesting and informative their views at the end of the experience.

You not really get to see the reality of it. It highly unlikely that any fairy serious county training structure would let a player from another especially a fairly serious rival get a look at its setup

Cilldara_2000 · 21-12-2020 01:50AM

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

what were the averages for the 5 years previous so we can draw a comparison?

Fair point.

All Ireland champions average winning margins in the AI series:

2020 - 10 points
2019 - 8.8 points
2018 - 7.4 points
2017 - 7.7 points
2016 - 2 points
2015 - 4.5 points
2014 - 4.3 points
2013 - 4.3 points
2012 - 2.7 points
2011 - 3.3 points
2010 - 3.7 points

y0ssar1an22 · 21-12-2020 02:09AM

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

Fair point.

All Ireland champions average winning margins in the AI series:

2020 - 10 points
2019 - 8.8 points
2018 - 7.4 points
2017 - 7.7 points
2016 - 2 points
2015 - 4.5 points
2014 - 4.3 points
2013 - 4.3 points
2012 - 2.7 points
2011 - 3.3 points
2010 - 3.7 points

dublin hadn't won an all ireland since 95, and 82 (?) before that. was there a huge drive, financially in excess of all other counties, to accelerate dublin to meet their counterparts at that time? being around the late 00's

The_Kew_Tour · 21-12-2020 02:16AM

If Dublin was to be spilt what happens their AI titles? Will go back to zero? Or do we all start again?

StupidLikeAFox · 21-12-2020 02:16AM

DubCount wrote: »

This is amazing. Over 5,000 posts on the dominance of Dublin. Of the Six in a row, 2 were won in replays and the biggest winning margin in a final was 6 points. Its winning, but I don't think you can call it dominance

A team who have lost just two championship matches in the last 10 years and won 15 of the last 16 Leinster championships are not a dominant team. Is there any other sport in the world that has a similar record I wonder

y0ssar1an22 · 21-12-2020 03:29AM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

If Dublin was to be spilt what happens their AI titles? Will go back to zero? Or do we all start again?

do dublin have any advantage at all do you think (population aside)?

y0ssar1an22 · 21-12-2020 03:36AM

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

A team who have lost just two championship matches in the last 10 years and won 15 of the last 16 Leinster championships are not a dominant team. Is there any other sport in the world that has a similar record I wonder

sport wise, none of the big ones. being soccer, rugby, cricket. all those sports are amongst a select 10 maybe.
but is there 1 dominating the rest? absolutely not. money is distributed fairly to keep the competition and grow the game.

i think i answered my own question there, there aint no growing the game internationally so make hay while they sun shines shall be by cynical view

Trey13 · 21-12-2020 03:55AM

As a Dub, I’m seeing a lot of fair comments on this forum. I think it’s obvious that Dublin have an advantage in terms of population, home field advantage and funding.

Do I think their senior set up is more professional than that of Mayo/Kerry/Donegal? No I don’t. I’ve played club football for years with/against many of the current Dublin team and it’s not as if they train 6 nights a week. I think at the top level, there’s minimal difference between theirs and the likes of Kerry/Mayo/Donetsk etc.

Having played club football my whole life, it’s very clear the standard in Dublin is higher than most other counties. But again, it’s not professional set ups like people often suggest.

This Dublin group are just an exceptional group of players. People will say this group are different to the 2011 one and that’s fair. But having grown up playing with/against the likes of Byrne, Kilkenny, Mannion, Lowndes, Costello, Scully, McCaffrey, McDaid etc, the talk was always that these lads are a special group. I don’t think they get the credit they deserve. Add the likes of Cluxton, McCarthy, Flynn, Brogan and Rock who have all been at the top of the game over the last 10 years then you get a dominant team.

I guarantee it won’t last forever. The talent coming through simply isn’t as high as what’s there now. This group won’t be replicated. The minors and u20s haven’t been rattling off all Ireland’s as they’re simply not as good as other counties. Dublin have their advantages but they also have the best group of players to ever play the game I think.

Strumms · 21-12-2020 04:12AM

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

do dublin have any advantage at all do you think (population aside)?

They do.

But advantages are part and parcel of sport..part of life.

If an advantage is achieved through unfair means, ok, it needs looking at.

But when advantages are achieved through hard work, getting your shît together on the training ground, on the pitch and indeed off it... there simply isn’t a single thing unfair about it.

Tyrone for example had over 9 million euros spent on their center of excellence... all weather pitches, grass pitches, floodlights, gym, conference facilities, catering facilities, a theatre.... built over 43 acres...

http://tyronegaacentre.com/facilities/

As a Dublin person, I say well done...if Tyrone beat Dublin next year, I’ll say well done again... no issues with any of it.... if they beat Kerry in the final, I’ll still say well done... and I wouldn’t be lending the ear to anyone complaining about their ability to train day and night, fair weather or foul.

An amateur sport it might be, but a competitive one... if you want to make the best of your sport and abilities, investment of time, money, and effort... does not make you a professional outfit, but a very good one...

y0ssar1an22 · 21-12-2020 05:09AM

Strumms wrote: »

They do.

But advantages are part and parcel of sport..part of life.

If an advantage is achieved through unfair means, ok, it needs looking at.

But when advantages are achieved through hard work, getting your shît together on the training ground, on the pitch and indeed off it... there simply isn’t a single thing unfair about it.

Tyrone for example had over 9 million euros spent on their center of excellence... all weather pitches, grass pitches, floodlights, gym, conference facilities, catering facilities, a theatre.... built over 43 acres...

http://tyronegaacentre.com/facilities/

As a Dublin person, I say well done...if Tyrone beat Dublin next year, I’ll say well done again... no issues with any of it.... if they beat Kerry in the final, I’ll still say well done... and I wouldn’t be lending the ear to anyone complaining about their ability to train day and night, fair weather or foul.

An amateur sport it might be, but a competitive one... if you want to make the best of your sport and abilities, investment of time, money, and effort... does not make you a professional outfit, but a very good one...

do the dubs have speciality diet based upon a nutritionist?

in fairness, i dunno. is there dominance down to population or more funding?

like dublin has a massive advantage with population. that aint changing. but to pump more money in...sports doping as far as im concerned.

kilns · 21-12-2020 07:55AM

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

do the dubs have speciality diet based upon a nutritionist?

in fairness, i dunno. is there dominance down to population or more funding?

like dublin has a massive advantage with population. that aint changing. but to pump more money in...sports doping as far as im concerned.

Pump more money in? Has that happened or are you just making that up

ClanofLams · 21-12-2020 08:15AM

Trey13 wrote: »

As a Dub, I’m seeing a lot of fair comments on this forum. I think it’s obvious that Dublin have an advantage in terms of population, home field advantage and funding.

Do I think their senior set up is more professional than that of Mayo/Kerry/Donegal? No I don’t. I’ve played club football for years with/against many of the current Dublin team and it’s not as if they train 6 nights a week. I think at the top level, there’s minimal difference between theirs and the likes of Kerry/Mayo/Donetsk etc.

Having played club football my whole life, it’s very clear the standard in Dublin is higher than most other counties. But again, it’s not professional set ups like people often suggest.

This Dublin group are just an exceptional group of players. People will say this group are different to the 2011 one and that’s fair. But having grown up playing with/against the likes of Byrne, Kilkenny, Mannion, Lowndes, Costello, Scully, McCaffrey, McDaid etc, the talk was always that these lads are a special group. I don’t think they get the credit they deserve. Add the likes of Cluxton, McCarthy, Flynn, Brogan and Rock who have all been at the top of the game over the last 10 years then you get a dominant team.

I guarantee it won’t last forever. The talent coming through simply isn’t as high as what’s there now. This group won’t be replicated. The minors and u20s haven’t been rattling off all Ireland’s as they’re simply not as good as other counties. Dublin have their advantages but they also have the best group of players to ever play the game I think.

This is a very reasonable post but it’s worth pointing out there has never been a team in GAA history that could lose the likes of Jack McCaffrey, Diarmuid Connolly, the Brogans, Paul Flynn, etc and still cruise to All Irelands. Those are some of the best footballers of the 21st century and their departure didn’t cause Dublin to miss a step. That’s not even mentioning Jim Gavin.

If those can all be replaced and Dublin cruise continues, it’s difficult to believe anyone on the current team will cause them headaches in terms of replacements.

Also worth noting Dublin are doing fairly well at U20s-21 level with four titles and another couple of final appearances over the last decade. But Dublin don’t need to dominate juvenile level, they just need 2/3 new players coming through every season and they have been doing that without trouble.

tritium · 21-12-2020 08:22AM

tobefrank321 wrote: »

Looks like ladies football has been killed off too as a competitive sport which is unfortunate as it was starting to grow in popularity.

Its lucky there was a weak tradition of hurling and camogie in Dublin or those would have been killed off too.

Yeah cause the ladies football was sooo competitive and open before dublin won the last few titles.....

Embarrassing to see the straws some folk want to clutch at on this thread

tritium · 21-12-2020 08:39AM

tobefrank321 wrote: »

You couldn't actually predict beforehand though who'd win. You can now. Its going to be Dublin in mens and womens. When that happens you know its a farce not to be taken seriously and that the sports administrators have screwed it up so badly they killed their own sport!

take a look at the list of winners from 2005 to 2016 and try to tell me that with a straight face

Mooooo · 21-12-2020 09:04AM

Time for each county to look at it's own setup. Dublin have raised the bar and the rest need to start climbing. Funding may be an issue for some counties but promotion at schools and better club competitions would do a lot for most.
Here in Cork, and it's just my opinion, in both hurling and footbal the club championships are poor, and they used to contribute a lot more to the county setup back in the day imo. The splitting of the year into club and county cycles may help that. But clubs not having games for months at a time definitely hampered the development of players who could possibly have gone on to county level as well as dropping the club standard of play.
The commuter counties in particular should have enough of a population of young people to be making an impact and the GAA should really invest in schools there if they can at all. Central funding should be used there as they have been traditionally weaker counties. Would be a good thing socially as well as for the game. Know of plenty of lads who have said that if it wasnt for encouragement to play hurling there evenings would have been spent getting into the wrong activities so to speak
Maybe a Dub can confirm but I believe a lot of Dublin clubs are well able to sustain themselves along with perhaps the county board. The GAA as a whole should look across the country and see where those funding gaps are greatest and look at filling them.
Always believed the club scene is as important to the country as the county scene as it's what really develops communities but one team winning all at county level can cause problems in terms of interest diminishing as well.
Covid may have fecked it for this year funding wise but basically that's what I think should happen. More money for individual county teams is only a stopgap, country wide development is what should be targeted

ooter · 21-12-2020 10:42AM

StupidLikeAFox wrote: »

A team who have lost just two championship matches in the last 10 years and won 15 of the last 16 Leinster championships are not a dominant team. Is there any other sport in the world that has a similar record I wonder

Kerry have won 15 Munsters this century.

ooter · 21-12-2020 10:47AM

Surely Munster must be ruined too so, ive never heard anyone complain about that?

lawred2 · 21-12-2020 10:49AM

ooter wrote: »

Surely Munster must be ruined too so, ive never heard anyone complain about that?

Munster is hurling country

And very competitive hurling country.

Completely erroneous to compare Munster to Leinster.

jay1988 · 21-12-2020 11:02AM

y0ssar1an22 wrote: »

do the dubs have speciality diet based upon a nutritionist?

in fairness, i dunno. is there dominance down to population or more funding?

like dublin has a massive advantage with population. that aint changing. but to pump more money in...sports doping as far as im concerned.

They probably do, do other counties players have speciality diets based upon a nutritionist? I'd say some of the other top teams do, if they don't, why not? That can't be a purely funding issue.

Population and funding definitely help but it's also down to an exceptional group of talented, hard working and committed players. Also some trojan done over the years putting structures in place to allow these players to thrive, Dublin have offered advice on these structures to other counties, very few if any have taken up this off, again, why not?

ooter · 21-12-2020 11:09AM

Cilldara_2000 wrote: »

Dublin's average winning margins (incl draws) in the AI series:

2015 - 4.5 points
2016 - 2 points
2017 - 7.7 points
2018 - 7.4 points
2019 - 8.8 points
2020 - 10 points

When Kerry were going for the 5 in a row their average winning margins were,
1978 - 14.5 points
1979 - 16.5 points
1980 - 4 points
1981 - 11.5 points
1982 - 10 points in the AI semi final.

Tombo2001 · 21-12-2020 11:12AM

Very simple solution for me would be to give Dublin a 6 point handicap.

I dont think that would be unreasonable.

Indeed you could go further and have a ranking system according to the past 5 championships and give all teams a handicap.

By all means knock the suggestion, but wouldnt it be nice if we had an all Ireland where Sligo or Meath actually had a chance of winning.

ooter · 21-12-2020 11:14AM

lawred2 wrote: »

Munster is hurling country

And very competitive hurling country.

Completely erroneous to compare Munster to Leinster.

Munster football I'm talking about, sure Kerry have won more AI's than any other county and about 80 Munsters.
But no it's not ruined.

jacool · 21-12-2020 11:15AM

I don't think anyone can have an issue with the players who are lining out for Dublin.
They are out there to do a job, and they do it.
Personally, I think that the investment years back has created a monster and we are looking at a 10-in-a-row team.
Despite that, no one can (or is I hope is) take/taking away from what they have achieved up to now, and will keep achieving over the next 5-10 years. The players have to train to achieve what they are doing. The fact that so many quality players are prepared to train throughout the year and then not make the final 26 shows the depth in talent that Dublin have that no other county can even dream of.

What is disappointing is when the older Dublin people get involved with comments like this, quotes are from All-Ireland winner David Hickey
“Dublin beat Mayo by 10 points in the semi-final last year when it was supposed to be a close match. I don’t have much time for this Mayo team myself.”
“You get tired of listening to talk of money and population. I think Pat Gilroy had it right the other night — why don’t Kerry, Cork, and Tipperary join forces rather than splitting Dublin in two and maybe they could have a go at the All-Ireland then? I think that’s a good idea.”

That to me seems disrespectful of the other counties, who are trying to put it up to the Dubs each year.
That's from the old guard mind - the current crop respect their opponents.

lawred2 · 21-12-2020 11:17AM

ooter wrote: »

Munster football I'm talking about, sure Kerry have won more AI's than any other county and about 80 Munsters.
But no it's not ruined.

It's a non event because most clubs don't prioritize football. They play hurling.

Football in Cork is predominately played on one peninsula.

Kerry's domination of Munster and their success at AI level is historic and not a recent phenomena. And certainly not something that could possibly be linked to the focused and direct application of central funding..

Bass Reeves · 21-12-2020 11:20AM

ooter wrote: »

Kerry have won 15 Munsters this century.

ooter wrote: »

Surely Munster must be ruined too so, ive never heard anyone complain about that?

Munster was always a two horses race in football. The province has five hurling counties that have nearly 70 hurling all Ireland titles between them. It interesting if you.look at it by province for football

https://www.google.com/search?q=all+ireland+football+titles+by+county&oq=all+ireland+football+titles+by+county&aqs=chrome..69i57.24807j0j4&client=ms-android-oppo-rev1&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8

Munster and Leinster shared the bulk of the titles between them. Kerry was an outlier in that it was not a hurling county. Cork has 37 Munster titles and the championship has only become one-sided in the last ten years. Cork returns on all Ireland for 37 Munster titles is poor.

The reason Cork has a poor record in the last 10-15 years is reflective of what has happened in Cork GAA. The Cork county board was dominated by a county secretary who was the first full time secretary appointed by a GAA county in the mid seventies. He was innovative for the first 20+ years of his tenure. In that time Cork won about 10 all Ireland's between hurling and football.

However in the mid noughties when in reality he should have retired he refused to move with the times. He was of the ethos Administrators, administrate, Managers manage and Players play. He led Cork into two disastrous players strikes, he refused to change the structure of not only the Cork championships but also refused to adapt the academy system for young players that other counties started implementing at the start of this decade.

Cork have only won one all Ireland in the last 15 years and that was in football. Ithink they have only been in one hurling final. This is a county that was one of the strong dual counties. Cork being uncompetitive in football at Munster level for the last decade is not surprising when you look at there hurling record. This was the county that up until the turn of the century held the record for most All Ireland titles in many codes and age groups and has slowly disappeared over the last decade.

Did you smash it · 21-12-2020 11:59AM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Very simple solution for me would be to give Dublin a 6 point handicap.

I dont think that would be unreasonable.

Indeed you could go further and have a ranking system according to the past 5 championships and give all teams a handicap.

By all means knock the suggestion, but wouldnt it be nice if we had an all Ireland where Sligo or Meath actually had a chance of winning.

If you’re handicapping one side vs every other team then it’s time to realize Dublin have won elite Gaelic Football and there’s no point continuing a competition that the best team has already being decided.

Tombo2001 · 21-12-2020 12:03PM

Did you smash it wrote: »

If you’re handicapping one side vs every other team then it’s time to realize Dublin have won elite Gaelic Football and there’s no point continuing a competition that the best team has already being decided.

Yes and no.

Yes you are deciding Dublin has won elite gaelic football.

No, its subjective as to whether its worth continuing etc.

The whole premise for this discussion is that Dublin has won elite gaelic football....hence the calls for this that and the other.

A handicap is a much cleaner solution than
- firing half of Dublins sponsorhip money to Leitrim and Carlow etc etc
- dividing Dublin into two
- dividing Dublin into six
- joining Cork, Kerry and Clare together

And so on and so on.

jmayo · 21-12-2020 12:08PM

The only sports as far as I know where handicapping in competition has really worked is in things like horse racing and motorsport.
Easy just add weight.

Yes there is handicapping in golf, but wouldn't all the top amateurs be playing off scratch ?

RoyalCelt · 21-12-2020 12:09PM

kilns wrote: »

As a meath man I am sure you know the problem was recognised 5 years ago in the suburban counties around Dublin and thus the east leinster project was founded where funding has now dramatically increased to counties Meath Kildare Louth and Wicklow. As evident from Dublin these things do not yield overnight success or even 5 year success, the real benefits are sign long term if things are done right

That project is a token gesture and isn't anywhere near enough to save an leinster county from an annual annihilation. No leinster team will beat Dublin in championship again ever. Its no longer possible.

Did you smash it · 21-12-2020 12:17PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Yes and no.

Yes you are deciding Dublin has won elite gaelic football.

No, its subjective as to whether its worth continuing etc.

The whole premise for this discussion is that Dublin has won elite gaelic football....hence the calls for this that and the other.

A handicap is a much cleaner solution than
- firing half of Dublins sponsorhip money to Leitrim and Carlow etc etc
- dividing Dublin into two
- dividing Dublin into six
- joining Cork, Kerry and Clare together

And so on and so on.

There is no point continuing a competition where it has been perpetually decided one team is better than all the others.

The reason for a competition is to find out which are the best.

Dublin are the best. End or ignore the competition because it us pointless.

The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

Comments

The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1