Classic car import: what does Brexit mean?

galwaytt · 15-12-2020 1:24pm

Interesting update: Revenue got back to me today on the issue of cars in the country, not being (able) go get inspected by NCTS/VRT system, what will happen, and here's their official stance:

" Please note that any vehicles that is registered in the year 2021 will go off the new 2021 rates. Therefore it will fall under the new rules."

So for me that means the horse has already bolted, as NCT/VRT have no slots left this year (I rang them), and rocking up post Jan 1st, means Brexit rules + new VRT rules.

Isambard · 15-12-2020 1:53pm

well I guess they'd have to say that to discourage the last minute chancers but it's surely challengeable on appeal or in the Courts. It certainly is unjust to move the goalposts like that.

commited · 15-12-2020 6:30pm

galwaytt wrote: »

Interesting update: Revenue got back to me today on the issue of cars in the country, not being (able) go get inspected by NCTS/VRT system, what will happen, and here's their official stance:

" Please note that any vehicles that is registered in the year 2021 will go off the new 2021 rates. Therefore it will fall under the new rules."

So for me that means the horse has already bolted, as NCT/VRT have no slots left this year (I rang them), and rocking up post Jan 1st, means Brexit rules + new VRT rules.

Not necessarily, the video on this topic said otherwise. Importation and registration are two different processes. The new rules they refer to most likely relate to the new VRT rules (which is the main bugbear for regular car imports). Importation is the process that will involve VAT and Duty which should be caught at port.

The great unknown is whether or not a customs clearance cert will be required and indeed how to get one.

scannerd · 15-12-2020 6:53pm

RobAMerc wrote: »

I think you know well I meant for a car that has had the booking made within 30days of being in the country but unable to get an appointment before 31/12 due to the backlog.

If the car was here 20 years there would be a crap ton of penalties to pay anyway

You can't currently VRT a car which if its not functioning as a car ie able to drive to the inspection, so not true if car is a project which not been on the road the whole time, there is no way to VRT it.

Isambard · 15-12-2020 7:12pm

scannerd wrote: »

You can't currently VRT a car which if its not functioning as a car ie able to drive to the inspection, so not true if car is a project which not been on the road the whole time, there is no way to VRT it.

yes but there is no recognition of this in Law. If you can't VRT it because it doesn't work, there is no provision for you avoiding penalties on registration.

w124man · 15-12-2020 7:39pm

commited wrote: »

The great unknown is whether or not a customs clearance cert will be required and indeed how to get one.

Its not a great unknown. The revenue clearly have stated that if you present a car from a 'third country' you must have a clearance certificate and its been like that for years. From 01/01/21 the UK is a 'third country'. We have known for months that this has being coming so why are we complaining? Its not 'unjust' to change the goalposts. Blame the Brits, they voted for it, its their fault!

RobAMerc · 15-12-2020 8:43pm

scannerd wrote: »

You can't currently VRT a car which if its not functioning as a car ie able to drive to the inspection, so not true if car is a project which not been on the road the whole time, there is no way to VRT it.

I hear you - but if you know revenue, you'll know fairness is not a priority for them.
Black and white rules that fall in their favour are par for the course I am afraid.

galwaytt · 16-12-2020 12:37am

scannerd wrote: »

You can't currently VRT a car which if its not functioning as a car ie able to drive to the inspection, so not true if car is a project which not been on the road the whole time, there is no way to VRT it.

You were still required to 'import' it at the actual time ..of import. Revenue dont give a monkeys in that regard.

Car99 · 16-12-2020 12:42am

galwaytt wrote: »

You were still required to 'import' it at the actual time ..of import. Revenue dont give a monkeys in that regard.

I asked nct to vrt a non running classic back in the summer and they said dont bring it into to us unless it is complete and running. So I didnt . It might be for the best anyways the car is worth more in the UK.

macplaxton · 16-12-2020 1:15am

galwaytt wrote: »

You were still required to 'import' it at the actual time ..of import. Revenue dont give a monkeys in that regard.

Yes, at the actual time of import it is "quality used spares'" and when it becomes a "mechanically propelled vehicle" it then becomes a VRT/registration matter.

Isambard · 16-12-2020 9:41am

macplaxton wrote: »

Yes, at the actual time of import it is "quality used spares'" and when it becomes a "mechanically propelled vehicle" it then becomes a VRT/registration matter.

to you yes, but to Revenue, the date of Import is the date it crossed the border. There is no provision for non-working cars.

commited · 16-12-2020 10:02am

w124man wrote: »

Its not a great unknown. The revenue clearly have stated that if you present a car from a 'third country' you must have a clearance certificate and its been like that for years. From 01/01/21 the UK is a 'third country'. We have known for months that this has being coming so why are we complaining? Its not 'unjust' to change the goalposts. Blame the Brits, they voted for it, its their fault!

To be fair, it is an unknown as the Brexit situation hasn't been resolved and indeed the revenue video said "may require". To note, I didn't complain in my post, I do think that the lack of clarity coming from revenue is concerning however.

For those of us less educated, could you please explain how I can obtain a clearance certificate now for my classic that has recently entered the country prior to Brexit?

w124man · 16-12-2020 7:48pm

commited wrote: »

For those of us less educated, could you please explain how I can obtain a clearance certificate now for my classic that has recently entered the country prior to Brexit?

From where and when did you import it?

commited · 16-12-2020 8:06pm

w124man wrote: »

From where and when did you import it?

Northern Ireland, early December.

galwaytt · 16-12-2020 11:21pm

macplaxton wrote: »

Yes, at the actual time of import it is "quality used spares'" and when it becomes a "mechanically propelled vehicle" it then becomes a VRT/registration matter.

Not in the eyes of Revenue.

galwaytt · 16-12-2020 11:24pm

commited wrote: »

For those of us less educated, could you please explain how I can obtain a clearance certificate now for my classic that has recently entered the country prior to Brexit?

Phone up NCTS/go online, make appointment, turn up on the appointed day, pay them the €€€€

But you'll not be doing that this side of Brexit though: waiting lists all over the country.

macplaxton · 17-12-2020 12:17am

galwaytt wrote: »

Not in the eyes of Revenue.

I await my visit from the Revenue then asking me to pay VAT & VRT on my boxes of "quality used spares."

It's not going to happen, if it did, then they'd let me register the fecking thing!

It's not Schrödinger's car, that magically becomes a car just because the Revenue peeks inside the box.

Isambard · 17-12-2020 8:11am

and if they produce evidence of it coming into the Country as a car a number of months or years previously?

Revenue give you 30 days to re-register it, the fact that you cannot do so is of no importance to them, there is no provision for such a situation.

macplaxton · 17-12-2020 1:52pm

That evidence is unavailable to them as even if they followed me all the way from the North, the only evidence they would have would be a body shell on a trailer, an unattached chassis and numerous boxes of quality used spares.

It's been apart that long, I've long forgotten how it all goes back together or where everything is.

I will of course update as and when anything progresses in this case.

Isambard · 17-12-2020 2:50pm

in your particular case maybe but as general advice, Revenue allow 30 days for registration and there is no provision for cars that cannot be registered due to being non-runners.

w124man · 17-12-2020 7:02pm

commited wrote: »

Northern Ireland, early December.

You dont need a tax clearance cert assuming you have already made an appointment with the VRT and you got a date before Brexit.

commited · 17-12-2020 7:28pm

w124man wrote: »

You dont need a tax clearance cert assuming you have already made an appointment with the VRT and you got a date before Brexit.

Thanks for response, appointment applied for early December (think the 2nd) with 6th Jan date given after waiting a week or so - I.e. not before Brexit and I applied as early as I could. This was exactly my point though, revenue have been unable to confirm whether or not I need a customs clearance cert so its still an unknown about what VRT will be demanding to register hence I'd like to know how I get a customs clearance cert showing its customs compliant!

Car99 · 17-12-2020 8:03pm

commited wrote: »

Thanks for response, appointment applied for early December (think the 2nd) with 6th Jan date given after waiting a week or so - I.e. not before Brexit and I applied as early as I could. This was exactly my point though, revenue have been unable to confirm whether or not I need a customs clearance cert so its still an unknown about what VRT will be demanding to register hence I'd like to know how I get a customs clearance cert showing its customs compliant!

Thinking a little outside the box could a commissioner of oaths help in this situation to verify your car was in the country before dec 31st 2020.

Isambard · 17-12-2020 8:17pm

commited wrote: »

Thanks for response, appointment applied for early December (think the 2nd) with 6th Jan date given after waiting a week or so - I.e. not before Brexit and I applied as early as I could. This was exactly my point though, revenue have been unable to confirm whether or not I need a customs clearance cert so its still an unknown about what VRT will be demanding to register hence I'd like to know how I get a customs clearance cert showing its customs compliant!

excuse my ignorance but I would have thought a Customs clearance cert would be issued after Customs determine what VAT and Excise duty should be due and after it has been paid....ie not required before Brexit.

RobAMerc · 17-12-2020 10:55pm

commited wrote: »

Thanks for response, appointment applied for early December (think the 2nd) with 6th Jan date given after waiting a week or so - I.e. not before Brexit and I applied as early as I could. This was exactly my point though, revenue have been unable to confirm whether or not I need a customs clearance cert so its still an unknown about what VRT will be demanding to register hence I'd like to know how I get a customs clearance cert showing its customs compliant!

I think you would be very hard done by in this situation - any car in the country by 31 Dec and with a VRT appointment applied for by Jan 7th should go by the old pre-brexit rules.

You had it in before brexit, you applied for the VRT inside the 7 days as required. You cant be at fault for them not being able to fit you in in the 30days -

Anything after that would be fodder for a good rodgering I'd say

macplaxton · 18-12-2020 1:16pm

RobAMerc wrote: »

Anything after that would be fodder for a good rodgering I'd say

Maybe. Maybe not.

I don't even recall seeing an actual penalty for not booking an appointment within 7 days. (If anyone finds the penalty for it, post it up)

The only penalty I've seen is for exceeding the 30 day limit.

I'll look for the paperwork sometime, but last car I registered in November 2019 never incurred a penalty. It definitely took me longer than 7 days to make the booking and it was presented for inspection within 30 days.

Car99 · 18-12-2020 1:45pm

macplaxton wrote: »

Maybe. Maybe not.

I don't even recall seeing an actual penalty for not booking an appointment within 7 days. (If anyone finds the penalty for it, post it up)

The only penalty I've seen is for exceeding the 30 day limit.

I'll look for the paperwork sometime, but last car I registered in November 2019 never incurred a penalty. It definitely took me longer than 7 days to make the booking and it was presented for inspection within 30 days.

I would say from an EU law point of view Revenue would be breaking the law if they charged VAT and import tax on goods imported from the UK prior to Brexit.
I dont think they would do that as long as you can prove the goods were in the country before Brexit.

commited · 18-12-2020 2:29pm

Thanks folks. I think I'm going to drive to the local Garda station and see if they'll sign a piece of paper stating they saw the car here!

Re the customs clearance cert, I understood that its purpose is just simply to demonstrate that the vehicle is customs compliant i.e. even if zero VAT/duty due. I just have no idea how to get one

w124man · 18-12-2020 9:18pm

I think a lot of people are totally missing the point here. After 01/01/2021 anything coming in from the UK falls under WTO rules. This simply means that our Government has to follow those rules and thats the way it is. You present a UK car for registration after 31/12/20 then the transaction falls under WTO rules irrespective of when you brought it into the country, deal or no deal.

Isambard · 18-12-2020 9:30pm

w124man wrote: »

I think a lot of people are totally missing the point here. After 01/01/2021 anything coming in from the UK falls under WTO rules. This simply means that our Government has to follow those rules and thats the way it is. You present a UK car for registration after 31/12/20 then the transaction falls under WTO rules irrespective of when you brought it into the country, deal or no deal.

depends if there's a deal or not surely. Time running out now....

commited · 18-12-2020 9:50pm

w124man wrote: »

I think a lot of people are totally missing the point here. After 01/01/2021 anything coming in from the UK falls under WTO rules. This simply means that our Government has to follow those rules and thats the way it is. You present a UK car for registration after 31/12/20 then the transaction falls under WTO rules irrespective of when you brought it into the country, deal or no deal.

I think the above is misleading. Importation concerns items crossing a border, vrt is a registration tax - precisely introduced to replace excise duty in the 90s to beat EU rules. VRT have been very clear that the customs process is separate to VRT. Therefore there is a difference between "after 01/01/2021anything coming in from the UK falls under WTO rules" (which i agree with) and "You present a UK car for registration after 31/12/20 then the transaction falls under WTO rules" (doesn't mean it attracts VAT/duty if it was in the country before 31/12/20).

macplaxton · 18-12-2020 10:18pm

w124man wrote: »

I think a lot of people are totally missing the point here. After 01/01/2021 anything coming in from the UK falls under WTO rules. This simply means that our Government has to follow those rules and thats the way it is. You present a UK car for registration after 31/12/20 then the transaction falls under WTO rules irrespective of when you brought it into the country, deal or no deal.

Cobblers. That's just erroneously conflating two different points.

1) may, migh and even likelycome under WTO rules. Not anything just yet.

2) with less than two weeks to go with a number of holidays intervening, not much is going to get through the process before Jan.

3) VAT and VRT are separate entities. The Revenue have said vehicles already in state can be processed normally. What they do say, although in not much detail, is that satisfactory evidence of arrival in state is required.

What form(s) this can take to satisfy them, hasn't really been fleshed out.

hi5 · 19-12-2020 2:21pm

commited wrote: »

I think the above is misleading. Importation concerns items crossing a border, vrt is a registration tax - precisely introduced to replace excise duty in the 90s to beat EU rules. VRT have been very clear that the customs process is separate to VRT. Therefore there is a difference between "after 01/01/2021anything coming in from the UK falls under WTO rules" (which i agree with) and "You present a UK car for registration after 31/12/20 then the transaction falls under WTO rules" (doesn't mean it attracts VAT/duty if it was in the country before 31/12/20).

I think this is it.
Registration numbers on vehicles coming into the country after 31/12/20 will be kept on a database.
Any vehicles put forward for registration after this date will be cross referenced with this list and if on it will be charged tariffs, if not on the list then it will be presumed to have been in the country before 31/12/20 and so no tariffs.

Isambard · 19-12-2020 2:25pm

i think it's the other way round, you have to prove it was in before 2021 or it's assumed it wasn't

hi5 · 19-12-2020 2:45pm

But by using that logic then customs could walk onto my property and claim that everything I owned, furniture, electronics etc, was due tariffs unless I could prove I owned it before 2021.
I think the onus is on customs to do the proving.

Isambard · 19-12-2020 3:19pm

in theory they could .

Car99 · 19-12-2020 6:57pm

hi5 wrote: »

I think this is it.
Registration numbers on vehicles coming into the country after 31/12/20 will be kept on a database.
Any vehicles put forward for registration after this date will be cross referenced with this list and if on it will be charged tariffs, if not on the list then it will be presumed to have been in the country before 31/12/20 and so no tariffs.

I'd doubt that it's too easy get a car into the country without any record of registration being available. In through NI via Stranraer, in on a car transporter . In on a dodgy plate . Easily avoid getting your plate recorded entering the state.

w124man · 19-12-2020 7:27pm

macplaxton wrote: »

Cobblers. That's just erroneously conflating two different points.

1) may, migh and even likelycome under WTO rules. Not anything just yet.

2) with less than two weeks to go with a number of holidays intervening, not much is going to get through the process before Jan.

3) VAT and VRT are separate entities. The Revenue have said vehicles already in state can be processed normally. What they do say, although in not much detail, is that satisfactory evidence of arrival in state is required.

What form(s) this can take to satisfy them, hasn't really been fleshed out.

Not once did I mention VRT. WTO rules is bugger all to do with VRT. I'm talking about duty and VAT. DUTY and VAT are under the WTO rules. Before you spout off I respectfully suggest you actually read what I wrote.

w124man · 19-12-2020 7:28pm

commited wrote: »

I think the above is misleading. Importation concerns items crossing a border, vrt is a registration tax - precisely introduced to replace excise duty in the 90s to beat EU rules. VRT have been very clear that the customs process is separate to VRT. Therefore there is a difference between "after 01/01/2021anything coming in from the UK falls under WTO rules" (which i agree with) and "You present a UK car for registration after 31/12/20 then the transaction falls under WTO rules" (doesn't mean it attracts VAT/duty if it was in the country before 31/12/20).

See above. I never mentioned VRT. Read what I wrote!

macplaxton · 19-12-2020 8:24pm

w124man wrote: »

Not once did I mention VRT. WTO rules is bugger all to do with VRT. I'm talking about duty and VAT. DUTY and VAT are under the WTO rules. Before you spout off I respectfully suggest you actually read what I wrote.

See point one. My calendar says it's the 19th December. It is not the 1st of January.

You're assuming WTO kicks in on 1st. Which isn't unreasonable, but it's also not a dead cert yet.

Anything can happen between now and then.

(for the avoidance of doubt, point one refers to DUTY and VAT)

unkel · 19-12-2020 8:27pm

hi5 wrote: »

Registration numbers on vehicles coming into the country after 31/12/20 will be kept on a database.
Any vehicles put forward for registration after this date will be cross referenced with this list and if on it will be charged tariffs, if not on the list then it will be presumed to have been in the country before 31/12/20 and so no tariffs.

So you reckon the onus is on the Irish authorities to prove the car was actually brought in on or after 01/01/2021? I very much doubt that.

If you're right (or if we will merely get a backstop) I am going to change career and smuggle in high end cars next year. On the ferry from England / Scotland to the north and then I will score myself some friends in the provos who, for a fee of course, will show me some "roads" into this country. Isn't there a "good republican" who has a farm with entrances in both NI and ROI? :pac:

macplaxton · 19-12-2020 8:43pm

https://www.revenue.ie/en/customs-traders-and-agents/brexit/information-for-businesses/vrt-implications-of-trade-with-the-uk/vrt-implications-of-importing-cars-from-the-uk.aspx

Revenue wrote:

Vehicles brought into the State from the UK before 1 January 2021 can be registered as normal. Customers must provide documentation to prove that the vehicle was acquired prior to 1 January 2021.

00:30s - Vehicles currently in the State - Invoice required proving the vehicle was sold in the State before Brexit occured...once you can prove it was in the State prior to Brexit.

Isambard · 19-12-2020 8:46pm

macplaxton wrote: »

https://www.revenue.ie/en/customs-traders-and-agents/brexit/information-for-businesses/vrt-implications-of-trade-with-the-uk/vrt-implications-of-importing-cars-from-the-uk.aspx

00:30s - Vehicles currently in the State - Invoice required proving the vehicle was sold in the State before Brexit occured...once you can prove it was in the State prior to Brexit.

pretty sure that's just for VRT It mentions registered, which is nothing to do with VAT or Excise duty.

macplaxton · 19-12-2020 8:49pm

w124man wrote: »

You present a UK car for registration after 31/12/20 then the transaction falls under WTO rules irrespective of when you brought it into the country,

As I said before: Nonsense.

The Revenue clearly state it is respective of when it was brought into the country.

w124man wrote: »

deal or no deal.

It most certainly depends on what deal is done. Nothing concrete yet, so assumption being made on worst case scenario. Current expectation is a wafer-thin deal, making WTO more likely.

macplaxton · 19-12-2020 8:53pm

Isambard wrote: »

pretty sure that's just for VRT It mentions registered, which is nothing to do with VAT or Excise duty.

I'm pretty sure that if you watch it, you'll hear Mr Grogan is talking about duty, VAT and intra-community transfers.

commited · 20-12-2020 11:02am

w124man wrote: »

See above. I never mentioned VRT. Read what I wrote!

I suggest you read what you wrote. "Presenting a car for registration" is the VRT process, there is no other way to register a car in Ireland. WTO rules concern VAT/Duty and are based on when goods cross a border. Revenue have said a customs clearance cert may be required hence my earlier question on how I get one now (which remains unanswered) as I am fully customs compliant and that doesn't change based on the calendar turning to 2021.

macplaxton · 20-12-2020 1:53pm

commited wrote: »

Revenue have said a customs clearance cert may be required hence my earlier question on how I get one now

If the vehicle is here already from GB it doesn't need a custom clearance cert, so you won't get one.

What Revenue haven't expanded on is what form the evidence of import prior to 1st Jan takes. Are they going to happy with hand-written receipts on the back of fag packet? Methinks not.

Isambard · 20-12-2020 2:10pm

hmmm, might be a good idea to park it in front of your local landmark with todays paper and take a photo, might help

w124man · 20-12-2020 5:32pm

macplaxton wrote: »

You're assuming WTO kicks in on 1st. Which isn't unreasonable, but it's also not a dead cert yet.

Every country trades under WTO rules. WTO rules are already there. The EU has its own trading block with its own rules in addition to WTO. Once you are out of the EU, deal or no deal you are back on WTO rules.

w124man · 20-12-2020 5:41pm

commited wrote: »

I suggest you read what you wrote. "Presenting a car for registration" is the VRT process, there is no other way to register a car in Ireland. WTO rules concern VAT/Duty and are based on when goods cross a border. Revenue have said a customs clearance cert may be required hence my earlier question on how I get one now (which remains unanswered) as I am fully customs compliant and that doesn't change based on the calendar turning to 2021.

I did read what I wrote, after all I wrote it. I wrote "You present a UK car for registration after 31/12/20". The registration process will include the presentation of a tax clearance cert from 01/01/21. You don't need one now.

Classic car import: what does Brexit mean?

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