The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1

20-12-2020 11:36AM

I don’t think think the gap is as big to the rest of the top six as people think. Man for man would put Mayo about 4th right now, and they gave Dublin some worries. The big difference between Dublin and the rest is that that just don’t have days like Kerry and Donegal had this year, as well as having a handful of all time greats.

To close the gap, in the short term if something can be done to help counties keep their players in their own county as much as possible. That would give them the opportunity to at least try to prepare their teams as well as Dublin. If they can’t, it’s not Dublins fault. Long term counties must be held accountable for their player development programmes with adequate supports put in place

awaywithyou · 20-12-2020 12:26PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I don’t think think the gap is as big to the rest of the top six as people think. Man for man would put Mayo about 4th right now, and they gave Dublin some worries. The big difference between Dublin and the rest is that that just don’t have days like Kerry and Donegal had this year, as well as having a handful of all time greats.

To close the gap, in the short term if something can be done to help counties keep their players in their own county as much as possible. That would give them the opportunity to at least try to prepare their teams as well as Dublin. If they can’t, it’s not Dublins fault. Long term counties must be held accountable for their player development programmes with adequate supports put in place

good enuf post in fairness... but i think the gap is huge.... yesterday was like men against boys... all the talk of mayo being in it until the 50th min was rubbish... Dublin could have won that game by at least 20 points if they wanted to... they got a goal after 13 seconds... went a little behind... and justt went up and got a goal to put them ahead again!!

MAyo played plenty of football in 1st half but it never once looked like they controlled the game... they never looked to be in command.. whereas dublin were very much in control.. got scores as they were required.. they just did enough...

the gap is huge.. i dont think its getting bigger but its huge... however and ive said this before that without either Cluxton, McCarthy, Fenton and Kilkenny that dublin side is weaker... and if they ever have to play without all 4.. they will be beaten... those guys are huge players...

the kelt · 20-12-2020 12:29PM

namloc1980 wrote: »

So we're at the stage that we have people denying Dublin have neither a financial nor a population advantage.

It’s just trolling, it has to be.

I mean it’s just has to be, doesn’t it. I mean practically every interview with anyone associated with Dublin gaa these days has a part of it where they say it’s nothing to do with the extra funding they received!

Like google is your friend here, it just has to be trolling

I mean surely we have to be at the stage where we acknowledge this is a great Dublin team but something has to be done for the sake of the game as the GAA have created a monster here!

https://www.sportsjoe.ie/gaa/dublin-receive-e15-million-more-than-any-other-county-in-games-development-grants-over-the-last-decade-149534

https://www.balls.ie/gaa/leinster-football-dead-454588

piplip87 · 20-12-2020 12:35PM

Cavan_King wrote: »

I still don't understand why this topic generates such a polar opposite in opinions - surely there's some middle ground.

I don't want to see Dublin split in two but I think its clear that work needs to be done to redistribute the capital that was pumped into Dublin over the past decade.

Dublin have their own advantages that can't be addressed:

1. Their population - which I don't see as big a problem as some others (take soccer as an example, small countries like Croatia (4 million) & Belgium (11 million) over performing based on small populations with proper structure and funding in place).
2. The location - Jack McCaffrey even said the Dub's biggest advantage is all their players live, work, study in Dublin but, again, that can't be changed.
3. Expenses - is linked to the above but Dublin are always going to have minimal travel expenses etc. compared to other counties. For many counties, this appears to be their main expense.

However, there are issues which can easily be addressed:

1. Croke Park being their home ground now - Dublin should only be playing the Leinster Final, All Ireland semi final and final in Croke Park. Yes, the GAA may have to take a financial hit but I did see a decent alternative suggested recently where each county would play a League game in Croke Park and then play 3 home and 3 away. This would also negate the advantage of teams possibly having 4 home fixtures every second year.
2. Increase the number of GDMs in each county. The funding should now be available to do that and I would start with the Division 3 and 4 teams immediately. My own club pay a local coach to go into the school one day a week but should we need to fund this?
3. Put in place a commercial manager/CEO for each county a la John Costello in Dublin. The GAA have been forking out millions in bailing out poorly managed counties. Put 32 men in place with commercial acumen, one in each county, at a cost of 100k per year and set them targets. Within two to three years, they should all be easily repaying the 3.2 million they cost collectively.
Intercounty teams are now multi million euro companies. The days of the likes of John the baker attempting to run this because everyone likes him need to end.
4. Pool all sponsorship money and distribute it based on key metrics for each county.
5. Ensure each county has the funding for a squad of 45 players. Travel and other related expenses should come from a centralised pot rather than counties attempting to fund them. Even if some of these 45 never play for the county team, they will be training at a higher level and bringing the knowledge they gain back to their own club teams.

Both sides of the argument are coming out with some ridiculous points to be honest but I think the above would at least start to address the issues. This argument that, ah well, other counties need to get their affairs in order is beyond annoying. Dublin were pumped with cash so it was easy to get their affairs in order. You can argue it all you like but the facts are there.

Compare them to my own county Cavan for example. We had to cut panel members at the start of this year to save on costs. At the moment, we're raffling houses to try and get the funds together for a centre of excellence, whereas Dublin have plans for two!

We were only the third county to put in place a full time strength and conditioning coach for all levels of our intercounty setup in early 2019 but Dublin have had one for near a decade.

Our county board chairman is a successful business man, which is the right way to go with these appointments, but he is trying to juggle running a multi million euro electrical business with the county board.

There's no reason to drag Dublin down but it's clear work needs to be done to drag the others up to their level. Dublin won the AI final yesterday without even playing well by their standards.

Cavan man here. The centre of excellence is atrocious idea. Surely that money would be much better spent employing coaches to go into schools, teaching them the basics. We have plenty of top class pitches in Cavan that can be used for training. The money for the centre would be much better spent.

threeball · 20-12-2020 12:40PM

I think its time the other counties demand an outside report of whats gone on. Bring in a guy with experience of sports where they try to level the playing field like NFL or Aussie rules and let them go through the funding over the last 15yrs, then give a full report on the situation. If they come away saying the Dublin funding was justified then fair enough but I doubt that happens. I think you'll find other counties are being treated unfairly also.

ooter · 20-12-2020 12:45PM

Tellyium wrote: »

just 6 of the 2015 team remain.

Good post but I have to pull you up on this, 7 of the 2011 team are still on the panel (don't underestimate that btw) so how only 5 of the 2015 team remain is beyond me.
I reckon 10+ players from 2011 were still around in 2015

JeffKenna · 20-12-2020 12:50PM

ooter wrote: »

Good post but I have to pull you up on this, 7 of the 2011 team are still on the panel (don't underestimate that btw) so how only 5 of the 2015 team remain is beyond me.
I reckon 10+ players from 2011 were still around in 2015

I think he was referring to the starting 15.

tritium · 20-12-2020 12:51PM

threeball wrote: »

I think its time the other counties demand an outside report of whats gone on. Bring in a guy with experience of sports where they try to level the playing field like NFL or Aussie rules and let them go through the funding over the last 15yrs, then give a full report on the situation. If they come away saying the Dublin funding was justified then fair enough but I doubt that happens. I think you'll find other counties are being treated unfairly also.

Should probably be looking at the last 136 years rather than the last 15 so. Anyone who thinks football was fair or competitive before this dublin team arrived is delusional, and doesn’t pay any need to the data.

munster87 · 20-12-2020 12:51PM

Lexie Icy Tremor wrote: »

Deep down every dub knows this is hollow and damaging to the game.

I doubt it’s that deep down

Cavan_King · 20-12-2020 12:53PM

piplip87 wrote: »

Cavan man here. The centre of excellence is atrocious idea. Surely that money would be much better spent employing coaches to go into schools, teaching them the basics. We have plenty of top class pitches in Cavan that can be used for training. The money for the centre would be much better spent.

Like where? Most club pitches are at stretching point with juvenile, ladies and men’s teams. Do you know many clubs openly offering their pitches to the intercounty teams?

There are already coaches going into the schools. Cavan has 7/8 full time coaches. I think each coach has 6 clubs to oversee. Yes, I’d like to see more but I think the centre of excellence is definitely needed.

JeffKenna · 20-12-2020 12:55PM

munster87 wrote: »

I doubt it’s that deep down

Must be kinda sad for the players in a way. They put in a lot of effort and it's all overshadowed by money.

tobefrank321 · 20-12-2020 12:55PM

dunnerc wrote: »

6am training sessions on dollymount beach in Dec ,Jan and Feb

So twice a day collective training? Do you seriously think that's an option for bigger sized counties especially counties who have half their players living OUTSIDE the county?

ooter · 20-12-2020 12:56PM

jimmytwotimes 2013 wrote: »

Some figures to back that up

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.irishexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/arid-30947162.html%3ftype=amp

threeball · 20-12-2020 12:59PM

tritium wrote: »

Should probably be looking at the last 136 years rather than the last 15 so. Anyone who thinks football was fair or competitive before this dublin team arrived is delusional, and doesn’t pay any need to the data.

It really has been skewed by money in the last 15yrs. It was other factors before that.

tritium · 20-12-2020 01:01PM

JeffKenna wrote: »

Must be kinda sad for the players in a way. They put in a lot of effort and it's all overshadowed by money.

I doubt they worry about it any more than Micko and the boys lost sleep over Adidas giving them backhanders or the Mayo lads worry about their generous corporate friends once the funds appear. There’s always been a resentment from certain GAA circles about dublin, this snide allusion about wealth even when there was no wealth. Just bitterness really, and in many cases hypocrisy

Enquiring · 20-12-2020 01:01PM

****WARNING**** THIS POST CONTAINS FACTS THAT SOME WILL FIND UNCOMFORTABLE.

Stadium redevelopment

Croke Park - Dublin senior footballers home ground - 265,000,000

Dublin Games Development fund

* Unfortunately there is no data available for pre 2005

Sponsors

2015 - 1,191,200
2016 - 1,505,106

Dublin team expenses

2015 - 1,558,075
2016 - 1,514,394

Administration expenses

2015 - 974,444
2016 - 1,126,933

Strategic review committee

Income

2015 - 2,592,533
2016 - 2,774,233

Wages and salaries

2015 - 2,117,237
2016 - 2,193,299

Other expenses

2015 - 870,578
2016 - 1,146,419

Purchase of Spawell - 9,000,000

Purchase of Hollystown golf club - ? More than 10 million?

Data comparing titles won in Dublin GAA pre and post funding:

Prediction - Abuse and tons of deflection on the way but no actual discussion of any of the above.

threeball · 20-12-2020 01:02PM

tobefrank321 wrote: »

So twice a day collective training? Do you seriously think that's an option for bigger sized counties especially counties who have half their players living OUTSIDE the county?

Twice a day training isn't possible for any truly amateur player regardless of whether they live outside the county or across the road from the stadium. Asking any county to replicate it just shows how ridiculous the notion is

ooter · 20-12-2020 01:03PM

olestoepoke wrote: »

They've always had a population advantage, this was never an issue that was brought up when they won one AI in over 2 decades.

Or when the senior hurlers never win anything.

threeball · 20-12-2020 01:06PM

ooter wrote: »

Or when the senior hurlers never win anything.

Data above shows your hurlers are up about 400% in titles since funding so hardly no return.

threeball · 20-12-2020 01:09PM

ooter wrote: »

Or when the senior hurlers never win anything.

And maybe if your hurlers actually stayed playing the game besides jumping ship to the glamour and sponsorship available to the football teams you'd have a few more on top.

tobefrank321 · 20-12-2020 01:10PM

threeball wrote: »

Twice a day training isn't possible for any truly amateur player regardless of whether they live outside the county or across the road from the stadium. Asking any county to replicate it just shows how ridiculous the notion is

Yep and that's the other massive advantage enjoyed by Dublin, their players living in Dublin. Very few if any other counties enjoys that advantage.
Also free centres of excellence and a free stadium.

They must enjoy about 8 clear advantages over others which have been widened the more professional and well funded their setup has been.

ooter · 20-12-2020 01:11PM

threeball wrote: »

I think its time the other counties demand an outside report of whats gone on. Bring in a guy with experience of sports where they try to level the playing field like NFL or Aussie rules and let them go through the funding over the last 15yrs, then give a full report on the situation. If they come away saying the Dublin funding was justified then fair enough but I doubt that happens. I think you'll find other counties are being treated unfairly also.

Pat Gilroy was on TSG a few weeks ago and said the DCB offered to lend their learnings over the last 15+ years to the other counties in Leinster and zero took them up on their offer.
I'm all for your suggestion but a lot of counties won't like what they hear.

olestoepoke · 20-12-2020 01:11PM

Enquiring wrote: »

****WARNING**** THIS POST CONTAINS FACTS THAT SOME WILL FIND UNCOMFORTABLE.

Stadium redevelopment

Croke Park - Dublin senior footballers home ground - 265,000,000

Dublin Games Development fund

* Unfortunately there is no data available for pre 2005

Sponsors

2015 - 1,191,200
2016 - 1,505,106

Dublin team expenses

2015 - 1,558,075
2016 - 1,514,394

Administration expenses

2015 - 974,444
2016 - 1,126,933

Strategic review committee

Income

2015 - 2,592,533
2016 - 2,774,233

Wages and salaries

2015 - 2,117,237
2016 - 2,193,299

Other expenses

2015 - 870,578
2016 - 1,146,419

Purchase of Spawell - 9,000,000

Purchase of Hollystown golf club - ? More than 10 million?

Data comparing titles won in Dublin GAA pre and post funding:

Prediction - Abuse and tons of deflection on the way but no actual discussion of any of the above.

I stopped reading after the first line where you attributed the development of Croke Park money spent on the Dubs.

Bass Reeves · 20-12-2020 01:12PM

Up until this year I taught that at Dublin would be caught. That a Kerry, Donegal, Tyrone etc would close the gap. Dublin never got out of 3rd gear yesterday, it could have moved up the pace of the game at least two not he's if needed. I remarked to someone that it was like a profession team playing amateurs.

Bryan Fenton is 27 with the professional process in Dublin and adapting his role he could pay into his mid thirties similar to what you see some rugby players do.

I have fierce admiration for the present Dublin set up and the way they play. Even if a team closes the gap it will only for a single all Ireland in 5-7years. You may get a team that will do 2 once every 20-30 years.

Even if Dublin is split into 3-4 zones each team will have population sizes of 300k, budgets of 5 million plus and access to fairly good training structures. It players will also benefit from even less journey time.

This came up recently in a conversation aside from distances players in other counties have to travel to and from training some also work outside there counties that add hours to training schedules. The demand for strength and conditioning training now means that aside from 3-4 training session most players must complete 2-4gym as we as recovery sessions. Some players in counties outside Dublin will travel 30-60 minutes each way to these and that is provided that they can do these at a local gym or pool as opposed to at county facilities.

tobefrank321 · 20-12-2020 01:13PM

ooter wrote: »

Pat Gilroy was on TSG a few weeks ago and said the DCB offered to lend their learnings over the last 15+ years to the other counties in Leinster and zero took them up on their offer.
I'm all for your suggestion but a lot of counties won't like what they hear.

Are they prepared to lend them professional coaches, money, a centre of excellence, 1000 extra players to pick from, etc?

Learnings is pointless without resources.

Cilldara_2000 · 20-12-2020 01:16PM

ooter wrote: »

Pat Gilroy was on TSG a few weeks ago and said the DCB offered to lend their learnings over the last 15+ years to the other counties in Leinster and zero took them up on their offer.
I'm all for your suggestion but a lot of counties won't like what they hear.

Sure what "learnings" could there be when it's all just down to volunteering harder?

Did you smash it · 20-12-2020 01:16PM

If Dublin are split into 4 or 3, where are the teams going to play?

Enquiring · 20-12-2020 01:17PM

olestoepoke wrote: »

I stopped reading after the first line where you attributed the development of Croke Park money spent on the Dubs.

Were you not demanding some data about Dublin's finances a few pages back? I've provided it for you. I did put a wrning that it is uncomfortable reading for some at the start.

threeball · 20-12-2020 01:17PM

ooter wrote: »

Pat Gilroy was on TSG a few weeks ago and said the DCB offered to lend their learnings over the last 15+ years to the other counties in Leinster and zero took them up on their offer.
I'm all for your suggestion but a lot of counties won't like what they hear.

Learnings are all well and good but when you have no funding to implement them you're on a hiding to nothing. Level the funding playing field. Why are dubs so against a level playing field. The only reason you can attract sponsorship like you do is population, there's no other reason.

tritium · 20-12-2020 01:17PM

threeball wrote: »

It really has been skewed by money in the last 15yrs. It was other factors before that.

Money has always been a factor. It’s a bit like Chelsea complaining that Man City have so much money. And before then United complained that Chelsea had so much money. And on and on it goes....

The Dominance of Dublin GAA *Mod warning post#1*

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The Dominance of Dublin GAA Mod warning post#1