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General Rugby Discussion II

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    #7982
    mfceiling
    Registered Users Posts: 12,791 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    It's worrying watching this unfold. Dementia is a bastàrd...I've had family members with this and it is truly horrible.
    Rugby is a game I loved playing and enjoy watching but it is getting to be a harder watch nowadays with bigger and bigger men smashing into each other.
    Even the language used...dominant tackles, clear outs, collisions are almost encouraging this.
    Reading Steve Thompson's story doesn't make you feel that the sport is moving in the right direction.
    I winced when I saw Porter's clear out of Hogg against Scotland. Literally drove him backwards 5 metres at a rate of knots....that's not something to be lauded, when an almost 20 stone man hits a lad who is standing still and sends him flying.

    There will have to be changes going forward for player safety and welfare. I've no idea where this starts but even getting the conversation going has to be better than nothing.


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    #7983
    Quin_Dub
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 15,240 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quin_Dub


    awec wrote: »
    I have said before I think there's going to be a rise in post-retirement issues for professional players, particularly those who have started their career in the past decade-ish. You have guys now who have been turned into gym monkeys from their teenage years so they can run over the top of people, and give out and receive monstrous hits.

    There are going to be very sad cases like Steve Thompson, but I think there are also going to be guys who suffer physically for the rest of their lives.

    I actually think that the biggest area of issue will be the era that players like Thompson were involved in.

    That period after the game turned Professional but before the game actually "acted" professional. The 10/15 year period from 1995 through to the mid/late 2000's

    Thompson himself talked about the difference between the training before the 2003 WC and his last involvement in 2011.

    In the early years they were just beasted day in day out by club and country with no real consideration to their health or recovery whereas by the time they got to 2011 there was much more attention given to Player welfare etc.

    That's not for a moment to say that there isn't much more that could and should be done , but I believe that the worst of it was in those early years.


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    #7984
    MaybeMaybe
    Registered Users Posts: 1,299 ✭✭✭MaybeMaybe


    mfceiling wrote: »
    It's worrying watching this unfold. Dementia is a bastàrd...I've had family members with this and it is truly horrible.
    Rugby is a game I loved playing and enjoyed watching but it is getting to be a harder watch nowadays with bigger and bigger men smashing into each other.
    Even the language used...dominant tackles, clear outs, collisions are almost encouraging this.
    Reading Steve Thompson's story doesn't make you feel that the sport is moving in the right direction.
    I winced when I saw Porter's clear out of Hogg against Scotland. Literally drove him backwards 5 metres at a rate of knots....that's not something to be lauded, when and almost 20 stone man hits a lad who is standing still and sends him flying.

    There will have to be changes going forward for player safety and welfare. I've no idea where this starts but even getting the conversation going has to be better than nothing.

    is this the clear out you mention?
    https://youtu.be/KxvcYxZNEPY?t=410


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    #7985
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Negligence is exactly what will have to be proven.

    They will have to show that the IRB were fully aware that the rules of the sport caused the medical injuries

    Not necessarily, I have been looking at this and in law there is the definition of strict liability -

    What is Strict Liability
    When pursuing a legal action for liability, the plaintiff must generally prove that the defendant was somehow at fault, whether by negligence or direct fault, for the damages incurred by the plaintiff. The law, however, recognizes there are certain circumstances that are so inherently dangerous or hazardous, that there is no need for the plaintiff to prove direct fault or negligence.

    Strict liability, also referred to as “absolute liability,” applies to such issues as injuries or other damages caused by a defective product, damages caused by animals, and engaging in certain hazardous activities. An individual or entity may be held strictly liable in both civil and criminal actions.

    https://legaldictionary.net/strict-liability/

    So the legal position may be just to prove that professional rugby is defined as an appropriate "hazardous activity"


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    #7986
    mfceiling
    Registered Users Posts: 12,791 ✭✭✭✭mfceiling


    MaybeMaybe wrote: »
    is this the clear out you mention?
    https://youtu.be/KxvcYxZNEPY?t=410

    Yep. Again I go back to even the language used (not in that clip to be fair) but hearing things like "a monster clear out" is almost celebrating a lad getting upended.


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    #7987
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    mfceiling wrote: »
    Yep. Again I go back to even the language used (not in that clip to be fair) but hearing things like "a monster clear out" is almost celebrating a lad getting upended.

    Completely agree, breakdown laws need changing.

    I do wonder what they can change it to. Ben Ryan has been banging this drum for a while. And if you’re going to listen to anyone, probably best to start with a little English chap who made a career out of getting smashed by Fijians!


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    #7988
    OldRio
    Registered Users Posts: 5,962 ✭✭✭OldRio


    Quin_Dub wrote: »
    I actually think that the biggest area of issue will be the era that players like Thompson were involved in.

    That period after the game turned Professional but before the game actually "acted" professional. The 10/15 year period from 1995 through to the mid/late 2000's

    Thompson himself talked about the difference between the training before the 2003 WC and his last involvement in 2011.

    In the early years they were just beasted day in day out by club and country with no real consideration to their health or recovery whereas by the time they got to 2011 there was much more attention given to Player welfare etc.

    That's not for a moment to say that there isn't much more that could and should be done , but I believe that the worst of it was in those early years.

    Id like to think so, but in the last few years the size and strength and speed of these guys has increased vastly.
    Going forward the damage both mentally and physically will be huge. Things cannot go on the way they are.


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    #7989
    Captain_Crash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,674 ✭✭✭Captain_Crash


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Completely agree, breakdown laws need changing.


    I played for 22 years and for my final 4 or 5 years the game had developed to where being the first to a ruck can often be the most dangerous place to be on a pitch, your literally a sitting duck for a few seconds. 99 times out of 100 everything goes smoothly but it just takes that one absolute monster clear out to cause unseen damage!


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    #7990
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    You wonder how the game will change, whether this court case is won or not

    When you hear about people not wanting their children to play rugby that affects the future of the game.


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    #7991
    jacothelad
    Registered Users Posts: 5,922 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    The first thing will be proving it’s the rugby as the cause and not simply one of those unfortunate cases of early onset dementia, that just happens to be in an ex-rugby player.


    Yes. back when I was a student in 1969 the mother of one of my friends died of dementia at 52 years old.


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    #7992
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,836 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Completely agree, breakdown laws need changing.

    I do wonder what they can change it to. Ben Ryan has been banging this drum for a while. And if you’re going to listen to anyone, probably best to start with a little English chap who made a career out of getting smashed by Fijians!

    Perhaps simply enforcing "not deliberately going off your feet" would be a start. Most cleanouts these days don't leave the clearer with much chance of staying off the ground.


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    #7993
    swiwi_
    Registered Users Posts: 4,490 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    jacothelad wrote: »
    Yes. back when I was a student in 1969 the mother of one of my friends died of dementia at 52 years old.

    And did she play front-row forward for England?

    As regards to rugby, while intuitively it seems like head knocks would increase dementia risk, is there any actual evidence in rugby that this is the case?


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    #7994
    twinytwo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,193 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    mfceiling wrote: »
    It's worrying watching this unfold. Dementia is a bastàrd...I've had family members with this and it is truly horrible.
    Rugby is a game I loved playing and enjoy watching but it is getting to be a harder watch nowadays with bigger and bigger men smashing into each other.
    Even the language used...dominant tackles, clear outs, collisions are almost encouraging this.
    Reading Steve Thompson's story doesn't make you feel that the sport is moving in the right direction.
    I winced when I saw Porter's clear out of Hogg against Scotland. Literally drove him backwards 5 metres at a rate of knots....that's not something to be lauded, when an almost 20 stone man hits a lad who is standing still and sends him flying.

    There will have to be changes going forward for player safety and welfare. I've no idea where this starts but even getting the conversation going has to be better than nothing.

    No more 20 stone players would be a good start, force the players to slim down. somewhere along the way rugby became about winning the collisions at all costs .


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    #7995
    Paul Weller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭Paul Weller


    swiwi_ wrote: »
    And did she play front-row forward for England?

    As regards to rugby, while intuitively it seems like head knocks would increase dementia risk, is there any actual evidence in rugby that this is the case?

    All players have received CTE diagnosis which is caused by repeated blows to the neck/head area...and studies have shown that rugby players are 6 times more likely to suffer dementia than the general population..the science is there, it's just been ignored for too long


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    #7996
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    twinytwo wrote: »
    No more 20 stone players would be a good start, force the players to slim down. somewhere along the way rugby became about winning the collisions at all costs .

    Yes and no. I remember reading something a while ago that the All Blacks squad hadn't increased in size in quite some time (this may have changed again over the last few years). It's like they went up to a peak size, and then came back down as the benefits of the extra bulk were outweighed by the negatives on their playing style.

    You also have some comparatively tiny players like Damian McKenzie playing at the top level.


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    #7997
    swiwi_
    Registered Users Posts: 4,490 ✭✭✭swiwi_


    Paul Weller wrote: »
    All players have received CTE diagnosis which is caused by repeated blows to the neck/head area...and studies have shown that rugby players are 6 times more likely to suffer dementia than the general population..the science is there, it's just been ignored for too long

    Links please.


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    #7998
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,556 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Basil3 wrote: »
    Yes and no. I remember reading something a while ago that the All Blacks squad hadn't increased in size in quite some time (this may have changed again over the last few years). It's like they went up to a peak size, and then came back down as the benefits of the extra bulk were outweighed by the negatives on their playing style.

    You also have some comparatively tiny players like Damian McKenzie playing at the top level.

    It would be interesting to see the breakdown of backs vs forwards.

    And for players like McKenzie, his small size likely protects him as he's a player who works best when avoiding contact, rather than taking it.


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    #7999
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    Paul Weller wrote: »
    All players have received CTE diagnosis which is caused by repeated blows to the neck/head area...and studies have shown that rugby players are 6 times more likely to suffer dementia than the general population..the science is there, it's just been ignored for too long

    No they haven't. CTE can't be diagnosed until the brain is dissected after death. The 'diagnosis' is that they probably have it. All this is literally in the Guardian article.


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    #8000
    twinytwo
    Registered Users Posts: 5,193 ✭✭✭twinytwo


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    No they haven't. CTE can't be diagnosed until the brain is dissected after death. The 'diagnosis' is that they probably have it. All this is literally in the Guardian article.

    Well that is the problem with CTE also given the fact that a lot of the symptoms do not appear until years later( not always the case) that the players are usually retired. It basically allows the likes of the NFL to deny that CTE is related to contact/head trauma in football.

    Of the 100+ brains of former NFL players that have been examined only 1 has not had CTE. You can make of that what you will


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    #8001
    Cookiemunster
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 11,938 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cookiemunster


    twinytwo wrote: »
    Well that is the problem with CTE also given the fact that a lot of the symptoms do not appear until years later( not always the case) that the players are usually retired. It basically allows the likes of the NFL to deny that CTE is related to contact/head trauma in football.

    Of the 100+ brains of former NFL players that have been examined only 1 has not had CTE. You can make of that what you will

    The may wall have CTE, but unfortunately until they die and their brains are dissected then they will not be able to prove it.
    And if they do have it, it may well have been rugby induced. But trying to prove that is going to be very very difficult.


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    #8002
    Christy42
    Registered Users Posts: 7,890 ✭✭✭Christy42


    twinytwo wrote: »
    Well that is the problem with CTE also given the fact that a lot of the symptoms do not appear until years later( not always the case) that the players are usually retired. It basically allows the likes of the NFL to deny that CTE is related to contact/head trauma in football.

    Of the 100+ brains of former NFL players that have been examined only 1 has not had CTE. You can make of that what you will

    I believe the 1 was a kicker who doesn't take much contact in general. There is also potentially some survivorship bias in there. People with brain damage tend to not live as long and so their brains were more readily available for dissection. However the overwhelming numbers is worrying.


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    #8003
    Paul Weller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 251 ✭✭Paul Weller


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    No they haven't. CTE can't be diagnosed until the brain is dissected after death. The 'diagnosis' is that they probably have it. All this is literally in the Guardian article.

    I should have included the word probable


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    #8004
    castletownman
    Registered Users Posts: 11,123 ✭✭✭✭castletownman


    I have seen loads of rugby fans (the sort that populate the pub during the 6N but wouldn't necessarily know whats going on in the Pro12) scoff at NFL, calling the players soft because they wear protective gear.

    I know they have had a serious issue of CTE in the sport, but at least they have taken measures to address it (no helmet on helmet tackles) and have paid out a tonne in compensation.

    Unfortunately, in this country at least, there is still a culture of heavy lads using brute force to create openings. There's no way in hell I would allow my kids play the sport, unless there is a fundamental change in the rules of the game. Which I can't see happening so long as "manliness" is lauded.


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    #8005
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,556 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    castletownman wrote: »
    I have seen loads of rugby fans (the sort that populate the pub during the 6N but wouldn't necessarily know whats going on in the Pro12) scoff at NFL, calling the players soft because they wear protective gear.

    I know they have had a serious issue of CTE in the sport, but at least they have taken measures to address it (no helmet on helmet tackles) and have paid out a tonne in compensation.

    Unfortunately, in this country at least, there is still a culture of heavy lads using brute force to create openings. There's no way in hell I would allow my kids play the sport, unless there is a fundamental change in the rules of the game. Which I can't see happening so long as "manliness" is lauded.

    Is the benefit of the protective gear not a point of contention in NFL?

    i.e. wearing a helmet and body armour makes players more willing to make crazier tackles.


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    #8006
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,283 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    castletownman wrote: »
    Unfortunately, in this country at least, there is still a culture of heavy lads using brute force to create openings. There's no way in hell I would allow my kids play the sport, unless there is a fundamental change in the rules of the game. Which I can't see happening so long as "manliness" is lauded.

    id be extremely wary of allowing my kids to play soccer or gaelic games as well as there is a dearth of policy with those sports in relation to head knocks and possible concussions.

    At least rugby has protocols which filter right down the age grades... with enforced stepping down periods for all age grades

    The incident between david luiz and Raul Jimenez was completely sickening and the fact they allowed Luiz to play on after being knocked out cold was disgraceful.

    at least gaelic has belatedly produced a concussion policy, the lack of a HIA in the rules means that players will not declare head knocks and medics are under pressure to perform on pitch assessments. The return to play for adult players generally 7 days after the incident is also way too short and risky.


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    #8007
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,836 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    awec wrote: »
    Is the benefit of the protective gear not a point of contention in NFL?

    i.e. wearing a helmet and body armour makes players more willing to make crazier tackles.

    Its not even really contentious, its almost definitely making things worse.

    Yes, they have banned helmet on helmet but really their commitment to "safe" tackling is non-existent. The general technique is focused on stripping the ball and its incredibly common to lead with the head still. Rugby has its problems but it is light years ahead of NFL for player safety.


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    #8008
    AdamD
    Registered Users Posts: 12,487 ✭✭✭✭AdamD


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    id be extremely wary of allowing my kids to play soccer or gaelic games as well as there is a dearth of policy with those sports in relation to head knocks and possible concussions.

    At least rugby has protocols which filter right down the age grades... with enforced stepping down periods for all age grades

    The incident between david luiz and Raul Jimenez was completely sickening and the fact they allowed Luiz to play on after being knocked out cold was disgraceful.

    at least gaelic has belatedly produced a concussion policy, the lack of a HIA in the rules means that players will not declare head knocks and medics are under pressure to perform on pitch assessments. The return to play for adult players generally 7 days after the incident is also way too short and risky.

    I might be being a bit naive here but no matter what protocals rugby has and soccer lacks, its still an significantly more dangerous sport to partake in.

    Certainly wouldn't make me feel better about a child being involved


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    #8009
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,283 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    AdamD wrote: »
    I might be being a bit naive here but no matter what protocals rugby has and soccer lacks, its still an significantly more dangerous sport to partake in.

    Certainly wouldn't make me feel better about a child being involved

    i dont think anyone is suggesting soccer is more "dangerous" than rugby.... my point is that the lack of adequate (in my opinion) concussion protocols in soccer is dangerous ..

    i mean for gods sake they still use maddocks questions as part of an on pitch assessment to rule out concussion


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    #8010
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 5,972 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    Basil3 wrote: »
    Yes and no. I remember reading something a while ago that the All Blacks squad hadn't increased in size in quite some time (this may have changed again over the last few years). It's like they went up to a peak size, and then came back down as the benefits of the extra bulk were outweighed by the negatives on their playing style.

    I remember reading something along these lines too. May have been in the Herald around 2015. It talked about how early in pro rugby, size was everything but how the ABs were moving away from that. It mentioned how Marshall and Kellerher (halfbacks) at the 2003 RWC weighed more than Sean Fitzpatrick (a hooker) at the 1987 RWC, compared to the size of Aaron Smith.

    It also talked about how the backline players were moving away from being giants just bashing it up to being more about speed, agility and skills. It mentioned the likes of Ben Smith, Conrad Smith and Barrett and compared them to counterparts from other countries who were much bigger. There was also a bit in it about how the polynesian players had to work harder to keep there size down in order to play the fast paced game because they were genetically predisposed to bulking up.


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    #8011
    bob mcbob
    Registered Users Posts: 971 ✭✭✭bob mcbob


    Cookiemunster wrote: »
    The may wall have CTE, but unfortunately until they die and their brains are dissected then they will not be able to prove it.
    And if they do have it, it may well have been rugby induced. But trying to prove that is going to be very very difficult.

    From the Guardian article, there seems to be a new technology that can detect CTE now -

    The magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scan players for so long have assumed to be the gold standard will not pick up the sort of damage suffered from mild traumatic brain injury. MRI scans came back as normal for all of the diagnosed players. It is akin to taking a picture of the outside a building that is on fire inside. The fire will not show up in its early stages.

    The diffusion tensor imaging (DTI) scans that confirmed the damage in the players’ brains are of a more sophisticated technology. They can detect what is going on inside, but they are expensive. If rugby can find a way to use the hardware in conjunction with the universities that house it, the idea of a “brain MOT” for all players becomes not only real but one of the most compelling of the propositions put forward by the players in their “15 commandments”.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/dec/09/can-rugby-union-continue-as-normal-knowing-it-is-causing-brain-injuries-early-onset-dementia


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