Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

One eyed Jack · 03-12-2020 9:20pm

AllForIt wrote: »

I'm surprised you think Margaret court shouldn't be reprimanded for her opinions given the side you are on in this particular debate.

I’m not defending her though. I’m pointing out the example as one that the other poster is right, there is every possibility that players who are transgender if they are regarded as equals in any sport, it’s possible that they could do the same as Martina is doing now and call for her erasure from history in order to secure their own. I detest the politics of it, but at that level with the kind of money that’s involved it’s not surprising that Martina is throwing her weight about and is only in favour of “equality” for people she personally approves of. I think it should be the governing body or association makes that decision, not Ms. Navratilova. If Ms. Navratilova doesn’t want to play, that’s one thing. If she wants to stop others from playing, that’s something else entirely.

AllForIt wrote: »

Exactly. Transgender men can compete in women's sports and transgender women can compete in mens sports. They are not being denied anything that is not denied to everyone.

If transgender women are allowed to compete in womens sports then all cis-men should to, that would be equality. Or if that doesn't happen one can simply self-id and get in that way.

Sounds like the same non-argument against marriage equality tbh, but I’m of the opinion that it’s easy to change the rules of any sport to allow for all players to compete on a level playing field. They already have different levels in many sports based on players abilities as opposed to their characteristics. That way it wouldn’t matter who they’re knocking boots with off court or how many bottles they take into the shower, they would be competing on an equal footing as anyone else.

One eyed Jack · 03-12-2020 9:41pm

Gatling wrote: »

Yet in his opinion people should get sacked for not agreeing with trans opinions because they are bigots ,
But here it's not this isn't the same ,
The gob****e in Australia has been making homophobic remarks not just recently but for decades ,
So absolutely her name should be removed from any tennis venue's ,it's not cancel culture it's respect especially in a sport that has a large lgbt following and players .

Seems silence is golden

I’m beginning to think you’re mixing me up with someone else, because I never said that. The circumstances aren’t the same because Margaret Court is not employed by Martina Navratilova. If she were I would say that Martina has every right to fire Ms. Court on the spot, and I’d say that of any employer that they have that right. I’m not calling for anyone to be fired, I’m just not interested in defending them when their employer makes that decision.

It’s similar to the way in which you ignore the fact that Martina Navratilova is trying to exclude transgender players from the sport, but she gives it welly about her “tennis family” and “equality”, and it’s true, the sport does have a significant following and participation among the LGBT cohort, but you see the way those four letters go together to represent the ideals of a single group operating as one? By definition that includes equality for the T and allowing them to have equal opportunities and protection without discrimination as the LGB, or as the straights, or as Catholics or Protestants or atheists or Hindus or Aborigines or Vegans or any other protected characteristic that qualifies under equality and anti-discrimination legislation.

Someone that campaigns for people to be excluded though? Well they can fcuk off, instead of expecting that everyone else should have to because that person thinks the world should revolve around them.

To bring it back within the context of the thread somewhat, that’s how things currently are in Irish Law which governs Irish society. Science nor anything else doesn’t govern society, as much as some people wish it were possible. That’s just not reality.

03-12-2020 10:20pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

Because the TERF side cannot let there be a well adjusted trans public figure. It’s too damaging to their cause. So they have to be torn down. They want the general public to believe that barbie kardashian is representative of trans people.

Oh dear. Who are you referring to as Barbie Kardashian? I assume it's Katelyn Jenner.

Why do you call HER that?

Am I a TERF in your mind?

03-12-2020 10:22pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

Because the TERF side cannot let there be a well adjusted trans public figure. It’s too damaging to their cause. So they have to be torn down. They want the general public to believe that barbie kardashian is representative of trans people.

Your idea of well-adjusted is slightly askew and, dare I say, incredibly unusual.

One eyed Jack · 03-12-2020 10:25pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Oh dear. Who are you referring to as Barbie Kardashian? I assume it's Katelyn Jenner.

Why do you call HER that?

Am I a TERF in your mind?

Well, this is awkward...

:pac:

03-12-2020 10:27pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Well, this is awkward...

:pac:

Why?

voldejoie · 03-12-2020 10:28pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Oh dear. Who are you referring to as Barbie Kardashian? I assume it's Katelyn Jenner.

Why do you call HER that?

Am I a TERF in your mind?

Barbie Kardashian: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/teenager-in-custody-charged-with-threats-to-kill-two-people-39563823.html

There are more recent updates - including where Barbie viciously attacked a female social worker, where the details genuinely make me feel ill.

One eyed Jack · 03-12-2020 10:31pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Why?

Two different people td - Barbie is unrelated to Caitlyn. It was just funny because the surname connection never occurred to me before now

03-12-2020 10:33pm

voldejoie wrote: »

Barbie Kardashian: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/teenager-in-custody-charged-with-threats-to-kill-two-people-39563823.html

Honestly never heard of "them". Assumed it was that brave Jenner woman.

Easy mistake to make.

Thanks for the heads up.

Got through the first few paragraphs and had to give up. What a mess this world is in.

LLMMLL · 03-12-2020 10:38pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Your idea of well-adjusted is slightly askew and, dare I say, incredibly unusual.

What is not well adjusted about Elliott page? Do you find trans people inherently not well adjusted?

03-12-2020 10:42pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

What is not well adjusted about Elliott page? Do you find trans people inherently not well adjusted?

Not inherently.

I do think that someone who needs to shout about being their desired gender from the rooftops is not someone I would class as well adjusted.

Having said that.

I know nothing about Elliott Page. Neither do you.

Kaybaykwah · 03-12-2020 10:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Not inherently.

I do think that someone who needs to shout about being their desired gender from the rooftops is not someone I would class as well adjusted.

Having said that.

I know nothing about Elliott Page. Neither do you.

At least now, nobody can claim Elliot has a hidden agender.

Mad_maxx · 03-12-2020 10:52pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

It’s exactly “cancellation culture” if we’re going with those terms -

In a bylined article posted on the Tennis.com website on Monday, Navratilova, the winner of 18 grand slam singles titles, gave full voice to her views. “When airports, buildings, streets or stadiums are named after particular people, it is done, or at least should be done, to [honour] exceptional human beings – our heroes,” she wrote.

“Think Muhammad Ali, Nelson Mandela, Martin Luther King, Billie Jean King, Rod Laver, Rosa Parks. Would it not be appropriate if the Staples Center [in Los Angeles] were renamed as a tribute to Kobe Bryant?

“Such luminaries excelled in their fields and transcended them; they made a positive contribution to mankind; they led by example. And, perhaps most of all, they were on the right side of history.

“But Margaret Court does not belong in that company or category. Nobody disputes her achievements on the tennis court, and her place in the sport’s history remains as distinguished as it gets. Nobody wants to take away or diminish her career, least of all me. Margaret, Billie Jean [King] and Rod [Laver] were my childhood heroes. I wanted to be like them. So, it pains me to say this, but Margaret Court Arena must be renamed.

“As a worthy replacement, my vote goes to Evonne Goolagong. Evonne is the embodiment of what a role model or hero truly is. Her heritage, her success against the odds, her Hall of Fame career and her exemplary life off court, in which she has given so much of herself to so many causes, are all attributes we can celebrate wholeheartedly.

“In our tennis ‘family’, we celebrate the good values of our sport and we love how democratic and inclusive it has become, the way it has driven out prejudice and unfair exclusion.

“Yes, we have free speech in a democracy, but that doesn’t mean that free speech doesn’t have consequences. When Margaret goes out of her way to single out a group of people and tell them they don’t deserve equal rights, that they are less than good parents, that they are not godly, that’s not merely free speech. It’s hateful and hurtful speech and it’s injurious to countless vulnerable people.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/jan/28/martina-navratilova-takes-fight-on-court-for-name-change-to-evonne-goolagong-arena

The International Tennis Hall of Fame states: "For sheer strength of performance and accomplishment there has never been a tennis player to match (her)." In 2010, the Herald Sun newspaper of Melbourne, Australia called her the greatest female tennis player of all time, a view supported by Evonne Goolagong Cawley.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Court

Well, since you ask, no.

Nor would I be defending Martina Navratilova who wants to keep players who are transgender out of tennis. It’s like Rachel McKinnon or Dr. Ivy or whatever name they’re going by these days, declaring who shall and shan’t be commemorated in the sport of cycling. People would wonder has McKinnon completely lost their marbles that they think they can issue diktats and expect everyone else to comply. Martina Navratilova is no different. That’s equality in practice - you now have an equal opportunity to be in as precarious a position as everyone else.

never liked Navratilova even on the court , knew she was always a political lesbian as well , shes now a WOKE authoritarian to boot

Girly Gal · 03-12-2020 10:56pm

grassylawn wrote: »

Some of the Elliot Page reactions are somewhat reactionary.

There are legitimate concerns about transitioning. Real questions need to be asked when people who transition who are sex offenders, children or athletes.

However Elliot Page is none of these. They want to be called what is now their legal name and for people to refer to them with gender neutral pronouns. Why do you care?

Elliot page is entitled to do what they want and I wish them well in the future and hope everything works out for them, however, I do find the idea of changing all their previous film credits from Ellen to Elliot strange, as at the time they were filmed and released Ellen was their name.
Don't know what they expect to achieve by changing the credits.
It's the same with Caitlyn Jenner, at the time she won the Olympic gold medal she was still Bruce, so the medal should still be credited to Bruce and not retrospectively credited to Caitlyn (there could be a note stating now Caitlyn), it's like a form of erasing history. Like it or not Bruce Jenner and Ellen Page did exist, they both may have changed their names and changed or in the process of changing gender, but, history shouldn't be retrospectively changed to suit them.

Smacruairi · 03-12-2020 11:03pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

Because the TERF side cannot let there be a well adjusted trans public figure

Again you use a slur to disparage, to disrespect, and to do nothing but provoke. I've asked you repeatedly to refrain from using slurs, you seem to not be able to control yourself. Using that slur is the same as "deadnaming", can you please find a better way to communicate.

Gruffalux · 03-12-2020 11:06pm

LLMMLL wrote: »

What is not well adjusted about Elliott page? Do you find trans people inherently not well adjusted?

I don't find the trans people who I read to be inherently maladjusted. Ordinary people.
And then some vocal well known transgender people are very maladjusted. There are arseholes in every walk of life.

As for Page I only know what I see. I think they look very malnourished. Skeletal actually. Looking at photos from 10 years ago they looked a lot more healthy and vibrant. The announcement contained passages that seemed highly neurotic and unneccessary. Afraid of violence. Etc.

Then again that is stardom, maybe. Angelina Jolie also looks gaunt and malnourished, and she was incredibly beautiful before. I would say that few people in Hollywood remain well adjusted, frankly. Seems like a lot of them are weird and narcissistic. Not really useful as role models. The cult of celebrity is akin to the worship of the Greek pantheon of old.

03-12-2020 11:07pm

Smacruairi wrote: »

Again you use a slur to disparage, to disrespect, and to do nothing but provoke. I've asked you repeatedly to refrain from using slurs, you seem to not be able to control yourself. Using that slur is the same as "deadnaming", can you please find a better way to communicate.

I find it slightly amusing. I don't think I've ever been called a feminist before.

grassylawn · 03-12-2020 11:11pm

Girly Gal wrote: »

Elliot page is entitled to do what they want and I wish them well in the future and hope everything works out for them, however, I do find the idea of changing all their previous film credits from Ellen to Elliot strange, as at the time they were filmed and released Ellen was their name.
Don't know what they expect to achieve by changing the credits.
It's the same with Caitlyn Jenner, at the time she won the Olympic gold medal she was still Bruce, so the medal should still be credited to Bruce and not retrospectively credited to Caitlyn (there could be a note stating now Caitlyn), it's like a form of erasing history. Like it or not Bruce Jenner and Ellen Page did exist, they both may have changed their names and changed or in the process of changing gender, but, history shouldn't be retrospectively changed to suit them.

It's strange alright and the rules are different to other cases where people change their names.

I think the point is that when you change your name it reflects a new identity. Trans people affirm that their new name has always been their real identity when they change it retoractively.

Personally I think that the rules should be the same for other cases where someone wants to change their name. If it can be allowed/facilitated for one case then I see no practical reason that it cannot for others too.

Gatling · 03-12-2020 11:30pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I’m beginning to think you’re mixing me up with someone else, because I never said that. The circumstances aren’t the same because Margaret Court is not employed by Martina Navratilova. If

No I'm not mixing you up .

No bigotry, no screaming homophobia

But it you say you don't agree with the trans ideology you rant about bigotry and homophobia repeatedly .
And when it's slapped in front of your face a bigot and homophobe Margret court you cry about it .

Her name should be removed from any sporting venue ,not from history ,but no names on courts or venues ,

Men being excluded from women's tennis isn't discrimination they can play tennis , singles ,doubles ,mixed doubles like everybody can ,
Just you either play men's as a man and womens as an Adult Human Female.

Gatling · 03-12-2020 11:31pm

Smacruairi wrote: »

Again you use a slur to disparage, to disrespect, and to do nothing but provoke

When all you have is an ideology From twitter all your left with is bitterness and name calling .

As another poster said it's amusing

One eyed Jack · 03-12-2020 11:31pm

Girly Gal wrote: »

Like it or not Bruce Jenner and Ellen Page did exist, they both may have changed their names and changed or in the process of changing gender, but, history shouldn't be retrospectively changed to suit them.

Like it or not, history has, and always will be retrospectively changed to suit the narrators perspective. Just look at the history of the story of the Stonewall riots - the hero of the narrative, and how they are described and portrayed even, has always been changing.

20 years ago when I was organising Pride parades and events I lamented the fact that the young people involved knew nothing of Stonewall or the Black Cat bar, they just wanted to parrrrtaaay, which, to be fair, I can’t say I blame them, they didn’t get out much :pac:

But basically it’s a bit of a chicken and egg situation unfortunately -

people don’t care about history > history loses it’s value > people don’t care about history, and so on and so on.

In decades to come we’ll be celebrating Otherkin and furries as the stalwart heroes of the Stonewall scuffles. It won’t be called riots then, that might cause people anxiety.

03-12-2020 11:35pm

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Like it or not, history has, and always will be retrospectively changed to suit the narrators perspective. Just look at the history of the story of the Stonewall riots - the hero of the narrative, and how they are described and portrayed even, has always been changing.

20 years ago when I was organising Pride parades and events I lamented the fact that the young people involved knew nothing of Stonewall or the Black Cat bar, they just wanted to parrrrtaaay, which, to be fair, I can’t say I blame them, they didn’t get out much :pac:

But basically it’s a bit of a chicken and egg situation unfortunately -

people don’t care about history > history loses it’s value > people don’t care about history, and so on and so on.

In decades to come we’ll be celebrating Otherkin and furries as the stalwart heroes of the Stonewall scuffles. It won’t be called riots then, that might cause people anxiety.

As a response to history shouldn't be retrospectively changed to suit them this is incredibly incoherent.

03-12-2020 11:36pm

Mad_maxx wrote: »

never liked Navratilova even on the court , knew she was always a political lesbian as well , shes now a WOKE authoritarian to boot

I think she is anti-WOKE on this issue.

One eyed Jack · 03-12-2020 11:38pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

As a response to history shouldn't be retrospectively changed to suit them this is incredibly incoherent.

Everything I say is incoherent to you, isn’t it?

Initially I thought it was me, but now I’m beginning to wonder.

The point is that history itself hasn’t changed. The narrative has, depending upon who the narrator is.

04-12-2020 12:10am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Everything I say is incoherent to you, isn’t it?

Yes. I could go through that line by line but why bother? Stonewall riots have nothing to do with the quote you were replying to.

Look I'll put you on ignore, not because you are a nasty poster, far from it, but I do find you incoherent and possibly my replies are a bit terse... So for my own sanity :-)

Hego Damask · 04-12-2020 12:13am

Deleted User wrote: »

I think she is anti-WOKE on this issue.

No she backed down and grovelled to the lunatics.

Fair play to JK Rowling for standing her ground.

One eyed Jack · 04-12-2020 12:23am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Yes. I could go through that line by line but why bother? Stonewall riots have nothing to do with the quote you were replying to.

Look I'll put you on ignore, not because you are a nasty poster, far from it, but I do find you incoherent and possibly my replies are a bit terse... So for my own sanity :-)

I don’t think your replies are terse tbh, I’d rather you were straight with me because I know myself my posts can be an incoherent mess given I'm dyslexic (it’s not going away and I can’t drop it, I wasn’t given a choice in the matter :pac:) and I appreciate when people will point out that they’re having difficulty understanding the point in trying to make, but yes, the Stonewall riots have everything to do with the post i quoted, because their point (unless I’m mistaken), was that history shouldn’t be changed to suit some people.

My point was that the narrative is always changing, and I used the story of the Stonewall riots and the lesser well known origins of the gay liberation movement in the US with the Black Cat bar. The Black Cat bar has been forgotten about for the most part, and the Stonewall riots were initiated by a “transgender person of colour”. They fcuking weren’t. Marsha P. Johnson themselves was even famous for coining the phrase when asked of their gender - “Pay it no mind”.

But the reality was they were a black gay man called Malcolm Michaels Jr. who was thought to suffer from ill mental health (I would say he was eccentric as fcuk really and played on that, he was still switched on) and definitely he claimed no responsibility for being anywhere near the bar when the riots broke out.

political analyst · 04-12-2020 12:33am

In an article in today's Indo (3 December), Stella O'Malley wrote that she strongly believes she would have had everyone convinced she was a 'trans kid' if she'd been born 30 years later, that studies show that 80% of children with gender dysphoria grow out of it - just as she did - and only 5% grow out of it when children receive puberty blockers.

This line from the final paragraph sums up the horror of the issue.

When politics gets mixed up with science, everybody suffers.

One eyed Jack · 04-12-2020 12:41am

political analyst wrote: »

In an article in today's Indo (3 December), Stella O'Malley wrote that she strongly believes she would have had everyone convinced she was a 'trans kid' if she'd been born 30 years earlier, that studies show that 80% of children with gender dysphoria grow out of it - just as she did - and only 5% grow out of it when children receive puberty blockers.

This line from the final paragraph sums up the horror of the issue.

I presume she means 30 years later, but that aside, what does that statistic mean to you?

Because to me it means nothing, it’s like observing that 80% of children develop into mature adults. The inference being that 20% remain mentally underdeveloped. I’m already convinced without her even trying, that Stella is one of those adults.

political analyst · 04-12-2020 12:53am

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I presume she means 30 years later, but that aside, what does that statistic mean to you?

Actually, it was me who made the mistake. My bad!

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Because to me it means nothing, it’s like observing that 80% of children develop into mature adults. The inference being that 20% remain mentally underdeveloped. I’m already convinced without her even trying, that Stella is one of those adults.

She means that most children who have gender dysphoria but don't receive puberty blockers grow out of it.

Gender Identity in Modern Ireland (Mod warnings and Threadbanned Users in OP)

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