Stop feeding Drummonds meal.....well any Meal

Bass Reeves · 03-12-2020 2:50pm #1

I was watching the Teagasc Webinar. The first one is on meal feeding to weanlings sucker and Dairy X. It was chaired by a Drummonds rep so hence the pun on the thread heading.

It was really interesting. Basically bit something I have always advocated. They showed research of different levels of meal feeding with decent quality silage. The control group of cattle were fed 70+DND silage with mins and vits. Other weanlings were fed 1, 2 and 4 kgs of ration. Weanlings were weighted at housing and again at turnout and finally after 200 days at grass.

While weanling eating ration showed extra weight gain at turn out + 35 and + 60ish kgs after the grazing season the one on no ration weighted virtually the same as ones on 4 kgs while the ones on 1 and 2 is showed + 20 and +23( off the top of my head may be a kg of two too good). These were the figures for dairy cross weanling but suckler's were fairly similar.

When you translate this to long-term killout on the cattle that made the weight gain it translates to maybe 10-14 kgs in carcasses weight. Extract carcass value at a guess is 35-50 euro. Ration costs assuming lad is buying in bulk at 260/ ton or 300/ ton in bags and ration is fed 120 days

1 kg/day is 36 in bag or 31 in bulk
2 kgs is 72 in bags or 62 in bulk
4kgs is 145 in bulk or 124 in bulk.

Mins and vits on silage would costs 5-6 euro / head max and 4-5 might be more accurate.

If this is true of weanlings it even more true of stores. If you are wintering cattle get your silage right feed adequate mins and vits and cut out rations. Where silage protein was decent feeding straight barley or soya hills gave similar results to feeding ration

Stop giving Larry beef that there is virtually no magin in for you. Get you silage and grazing system right and stop feeding expensive ratio to weanlings and stores

alps · 03-12-2020 3:02pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I was watching the Teagasc Webinar. The first one is on meal feeding to weanlings sucker and Dairy X. It was chaired by a Drummonds rep so hence the pun on the thread heading.

It was really interesting. Basically bit something I have always advocated. They showed research of different levels of meal feeding with decent quality silage. The control group of cattle were fed 70+DND silage with mins and vits. Other weanlings were fed 1, 2 and 4 kgs of ration. Weanlings were weighted at housing and again at turnout and finally after 200 days at grass.

While weanling eating ration showed extra weight gain at turn out + 35 and + 60ish kgs after the grazing season the one on no ration weighted virtually the same as ones on 4 kgs while the ones on 1 and 2 is showed + 20 and +23( off the top of my head may be a kg of two too good). These were the figures for dairy cross weanling but suckler's were fairly similar.

When you translate this to long-term killout on the cattle that made the weight gain it translates to maybe 10-14 kgs in carcasses weight. Extract carcass value at a guess is 35-50 euro. Ration costs assuming lad is buying in bulk at 260/ ton or 300/ ton in bags and ration is fed 120 days

1 kg/day is 36 in bag or 31 in bulk
2 kgs is 72 in bags or 62 in bulk
4kgs is 145 in bulk or 124 in bulk.

Mins and vits on silage would costs 5-6 euro / head max and 4-5 might be more accurate.

If this is true of weanlings it even more true of stores. If you are wintering cattle get your silage right feed adequate mins and vits and cut out rations. Where silage protein was decent feeding straight barley or soya hills gave similar results to feeding ration

Stop giving Larry beef that there is virtually no magin in for you. Get you silage and grazing system right and stop feeding expensive ratio to weanlings and stores

Did they give any reference to offset silage?

Not sure there would be much of a substitution at 1kg, but it must be serious at 4kg..

All our silage here bought in and costing 150 to 190 per tonne..

This would need to be factored in also..

Gillespy · 03-12-2020 3:09pm

Excellent point Alps. Always wary of Teagasc advocating cutting meal. It's their go to with everything. On many farms, getting silage and grazing up to the standard needed to cut meal might make the enterprise just as questionable. That stuff isn't cheap either.

timple23 · 03-12-2020 3:12pm

Is the webinar up somewhere to watch?

richie123 · 03-12-2020 3:26pm

Gillespy wrote: »

Excellent point Alps. Always wary of Teagasc advocating cutting meal. It's their go to with everything. On many farms, getting silage and grazing up to the standard needed to cut meal might make the enterprise just as questionable. That stuff isn't cheap either.

But that's a once off investment where as feeding meal is constant expense

Bass Reeves · 03-12-2020 3:33pm

alps wrote: »

Did they give any reference to offset silage?

Not sure there would be much of a substitution at 1kg, but it must be serious at 4kg..

All our silage here bought in and costing 150 to 190 per tonne..

This would need to be factored in also..

I did the costing myself. There was no offset for ration fed. However I have always found there is a lot of management required to feed much above 1-2kgs per day. Silage waste can become a big issue when ration is fed on top of silage. We are however dealing with silage that is only 70ish DMD. Silage made 20-30th May should be in or around that. I be real interested to see reaction to DM levels of silage.

My own costing for silage @ 25/bale is sub 10c/ kg of DM. from consumption levels at as lib I reckon there is 300 kgs DM/ bale

Bass Reeves · 03-12-2020 3:39pm

Gillespy wrote: »

Excellent point Alps. Always wary of Teagasc advocating cutting meal. It's their go to with everything. On many farms, getting silage and grazing up to the standard needed to cut meal might make the enterprise just as questionable. That stuff isn't cheap either.

Silage quality is a spring management issue, graze off before 1st of April, apply adequate fertilizer( in my case 3K gallons of slurry and 70 units of N in urea form) cut around the 25th of May.

Paddocking can be made simple move water troughs to middle of fields and drive s few stakes around them then use pigtails and string to sub divide into paddocks.

grassroot1 · 03-12-2020 11:26pm

Mmmh my take on it was above 1 kilo of meal it was affecting compensatory growth not that all meal feeding should be stopped.
A weanling taken off a cow wont have adequate gut capicity to eat enough silage to reach .6 kg day ADG IMHO.
If only checking weanlings once a day a kilo of meal makes it very easy to spot a sick one.
70 plus DMD silage ad lib would be adequate for a 1 and a half store to over winter on.

Jb1989 · 03-12-2020 11:30pm

grassroot1 wrote: »

Mmmh my take on it was above 1 kilo of meal it was affecting compensatory growth not that all meal feeding should be stopped.
A weanling taken off a cow wont have adequate gut capicity to eat enough silage to reach .6 kg day ADG IMHO.
If only checking weanlings once a day a kilo of meal makes it very easy to spot a sick one.
70 plus DMD silage ad lib would be adequate for a 1 and a half store to over winter on.

Agreed on the 1 kg spotting a sick one. Worth it

older by the day · 04-12-2020 12:39am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I was watching the Teagasc Webinar. The first one is on meal feeding to weanlings sucker and Dairy X. It was chaired by a Drummonds rep so hence the pun on the thread heading.

It was really interesting. Basically bit something I have always advocated. They showed research of different levels of meal feeding with decent quality silage. The control group of cattle were fed 70+DND silage with mins and vits. Other weanlings were fed 1, 2 and 4 kgs of ration. Weanlings were weighted at housing and again at turnout and finally after 200 days at grass.

While weanling eating ration showed extra weight gain at turn out + 35 and + 60ish kgs after the grazing season the one on no ration weighted virtually the same as ones on 4 kgs while the ones on 1 and 2 is showed + 20 and +23( off the top of my head may be a kg of two too good). These were the figures for dairy cross weanling but suckler's were fairly similar.

When you translate this to long-term killout on the cattle that made the weight gain it translates to maybe 10-14 kgs in carcasses weight. Extract carcass value at a guess is 35-50 euro. Ration costs assuming lad is buying in bulk at 260/ ton or 300/ ton in bags and ration is fed 120 days

1 kg/day is 36 in bag or 31 in bulk
2 kgs is 72 in bags or 62 in bulk
4kgs is 145 in bulk or 124 in bulk.

Mins and vits on silage would costs 5-6 euro / head max and 4-5 might be more accurate.

If this is true of weanlings it even more true of stores. If you are wintering cattle get your silage right feed adequate mins and vits and cut out rations. Where silage protein was decent feeding straight barley or soya hills gave similar results to feeding ration

Stop giving Larry beef that there is virtually no magin in for you. Get you silage and grazing system right and stop feeding expensive ratio to weanlings and stores

Its funny, if it wasn't so serious to see how advice change. After April 18 the advice was to make loads of silage, have half a pit left. A lot of fellows ran short with the 5 bales/acre. If the beef system can't cope with a 2kg/day meal bill for a four month winter it's bollocked.

farawaygrass · 04-12-2020 3:26am

Don’t they say if feeding meal to Weanlings. Say 2kg/day over the winter, to feed 3kg fir the first half and 1kg fir the second half, therefor you get the extra thrive from meal but still get compensatory growth?
I didn’t feel meal to Weanlings last year and you’d know it well on them in spring. I’m feeding Weanlings this year again.

20silkcut · 04-12-2020 8:46am

older by the day wrote: »

Its funny, if it wasn't so serious to see how advice change. After April 18 the advice was to make loads of silage, have half a pit left. A lot of fellows ran short with the 5 bales/acre. If the beef system can't cope with a 2kg/day meal bill for a four month winter it's bollocked.

It is bollocked as you say. There is no guarantee that you will be compensated for feeding 2kg per day. If you could go to the factory with your meal receipts or bring them into the mart with you then all is well and good. But it’s a complete lottery as to whether or not you will be rewarded for horsing meal into cattle. Entirely depending on whatever market demand at whatever particular time.

_Brian · 04-12-2020 11:31am

20silkcut wrote: »

It is bollocked as you say. There is no guarantee that you will be compensated for feeding 2kg per day. If you could go to the factory with your meal receipts or bring them into the mart with you then all is well and good. But it’s a complete lottery as to whether or not you will be rewarded for horsing meal into cattle. Entirely depending on whatever market demand at whatever particular time.

That’s the gamble of beef farming.

cute geoge · 04-12-2020 12:11pm

If you feed meal it will always show in the animal and you can carry him to the mart any day and you will be paid for it ,If you don feed meal abundantly it will show in the animal ,that is grand if you can keep him on and grass him but if you face a mart with him no one is going to pay you for the compensatory growth that he will get

Anto_Meath · 04-12-2020 12:13pm

I have always fed a about 1 kg of meal to weanlings and I am happy with how they thrive once they hit grass. The winter of 2017/ 2018 I was afraid of running out of silage so for the store bullocks I supplemented the silage from Jan to mid March with about a 1 KG of a cheap store ration. That July / August when I was selling them they weighed / graded well and I was happy that I got a return on my meal investment in the spring. I had a lot of silage for the 2018/2019 so didn't feed meal to to the stores and was disappointed with how the cattle weighed in July / August. Winter 2019 / 2020 I had the best silage I ever made, the cattle loved it, you could actually see them thriving in the pen over the winter so didn't feed any meal. They were good weights when selling July / August but I did think they should have been a bit heavier considering the silage they were fed in the winter. This years silage is good but not just as good as last year, so I have made the decision that I will start in January 2021 and feed 1 kg of meal for about ten weeks and it will cost me €21 per head. They will just need to be about 10 kgs live weight heavier when I am selling they in July / August to justify the cost which they should be all going well.

Welding Rod · 04-12-2020 12:21pm

farawaygrass wrote: »

Don’t they say if feeding meal to Weanlings. Say 2kg/day over the winter, to feed 3kg fir the first half and 1kg fir the second half, therefor you get the extra thrive from meal but still get compensatory growth?
I didn’t feel meal to Weanlings last year and you’d know it well on them in spring. I’m feeding Weanlings this year again.

Indeed. I too tried that a good few years ago. Never, never again. They are not capable of ingesting enough DM or protein, without a bit of help from the bag.
I have a pen of heifers and a pen of bulls this year. Bulls getting 3kg a day. Heifers getting 2kg a day. I’ll start cutting that down over Christmas to half kg for the heifers. They will go to grass early. Bulls back to 1kg, and sell out of shed in April.

Good loser · 04-12-2020 9:28pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I did the costing myself. There was no offset for ration fed. However I have always found there is a lot of management required to feed much above 1-2kgs per day. Silage waste can become a big issue when ration is fed on top of silage. We are however dealing with silage that is only 70ish DMD. Silage made 20-30th May should be in or around that. I be real interested to see reaction to DM levels of silage.

My own costing for silage @ 25/bale is sub 10c/ kg of DM. from consumption levels at as lib I reckon there is 300 kgs DM/ bale

Barley at €220 per tonne is 22c per kg.

Aren't bales around 850 kgs? At 30% DM that would be 255 kg DM per bale; at €25 per bale your figure of 10c/kg is about right.

One thing I find with weanlings is there is a lot of variation in a pen and I couldn't leave the small lads in a slats environment without 1/2 kgs.

Putting halved blue drums on the silage for the ration reduces spoiling a good deal.

mf240 · 04-12-2020 9:33pm

Anytime I was ever at a tesgasc office they had no cattle

Mooooo · 04-12-2020 9:37pm

Weanlings are growing at a faster rate than stores. I thought is it less than 0.7kg a day is considered not enough for maintenance? If you need em for breeding in the end of April they need to be kept on target otherwise they may catch up in weight by June but breeding will be pushed out

Bass Reeves · 04-12-2020 11:30pm

First thing to remember is these were beef animals not for breeding. As well they were being held over the summer for grazing. Silage was fed to appetite to all cattle and it was 70DMD. The meal was fed flat rate all winter long and I think the cattle on silage only did 3-400grams/day over the winter, while the cattle on 2kgs did 5-600 grams and the cattle on 4kg did 900grams/day. This is all off the top of my head.
This study showed that where silage is of good quality and grassland management is good, meal feeding during the winter is not necessary per say and feeding above 1kg is a waste as cattle make the weight up on grass by end of that grazing season.

It was interesting that on last night webinar about grass fed beef another few horay chestnuts were also put to bed. The First one was grazing heights, it was found that cattle did better going into grazing heights of 2000kg/HA compared to 1500kg/Ha. As well cattle did better grazing down to a 6cm as opposed to the normal gospel of 4cm.

Finally earlier this year we had Teagasc I think say that new research was saying higher DM silage on lower DMD was showing as good or better weight gain on cattle.

Alot of this is showing what anecdotally farmers have being seeing on the ground over the years who were not following the previous Teagasc gospel which was really only transferring research from dairy to beef. All these cut beef farming costs.

Not feeding a kg of ration saves 30-40euro/head
Making high DM silage as opposed to low save 20-30euro/ acre if making bales
Using higher covers to graze makes it easier to grow grass(grass grows grass) as well as helping to make management easier.

Water John · 05-12-2020 12:04am

Bass, you'll be mob grazing soon.
Agree with well wilted good silage. Baling water only makes money for the contractor. Think the discussion now is, do you give them a shake 1kg, or not?

Cavanjack · 05-12-2020 12:07am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

First thing to remember is these were beef animals not for breeding. As well they were being held over the summer for grazing. Silage was fed to appetite to all cattle and it was 70DMD. The meal was fed flat rate all winter long and I think the cattle on silage only did 3-400grams/day over the winter, while the cattle on 2kgs did 5-600 grams and the cattle on 4kg did 900grams/day. This is all off the top of my head.
This study showed that where silage is of good quality and grassland management is good, meal feeding during the winter is not necessary per say and feeding above 1kg is a waste as cattle make the weight up on grass by end of that grazing season.

It was interesting that on last night webinar about grass fed beef another few horay chestnuts were also put to bed. The First one was grazing heights, it was found that cattle did better going into grazing heights of 2000kg/HA compared to 1500kg/Ha. As well cattle did better grazing down to a 6cm as opposed to the normal gospel of 4cm.

Finally earlier this year we had Teagasc I think say that new research was saying higher DM silage on lower DMD was showing as good or better weight gain on cattle.

Alot of this is showing what anecdotally farmers have being seeing on the ground over the years who were not following the previous Teagasc gospel which was really only transferring research from dairy to beef. All these cut beef farming costs.

Not feeding a kg of ration saves 30-40euro/head
Making high DM silage as opposed to low save 20-30euro/ acre if making bales
Using higher covers to graze makes it easier to grow grass(grass grows grass) as well as helping to make management easier.

Had to let a group of bulls into a field that was closed off for silage in late may due to drought for a month. It was far too strong for grazing but needs must.
They done a serious thrive on it. Made them eat it to the clay too. It Used to bother me putting them into strong covers. Not anymore after that.

DBK1 · 05-12-2020 12:49am

I’ve fed all types of cattle from P grades to E grades over the years and I’ve done it every which way it can be done. From no meal to too much meal, from bought in ration to growing our own barley and oats and keeping it for feeding.

The best ration we ever had for thrive was our own barley and oats mixed in with a bit of soya from the co-op and Irish grown grain maize that was bought in bales from a man in north county Dublin, I’m sure some of the posters here from that area will know the man.

I also keep cattle weighed 3 to 4 times a year so would have a reasonable handle on what way the different feed rates and types affected performance here. Silage here would be 30 to 40% DM, 72 to 75 DMD and 14 to 18% protein, first cut would be done by May bank holiday, second cut by end of June.

The one lesson I’ve learned from all the trials and failures is definitely when it comes to weanlings the 2 kgs of meal they get during the first winter is not even up for discussion, it has to be fed or you’re losing money.

As farawaygrass said above feed it stronger early in the winter, lower the amount in the second half and give them none for 2 to 3 weeks before turnout and you still get the full advantage of compensatory growth as well as the advantage of the meal feeding.

The first of the 2kgs of meal pays for itself due to the saving on silage. The second kilo pays for itself in growth gain on the stock. But you also gain on confirmation of the stock and that carries through with them.

When it comes to stores it all depends on your setup and targets. If you’re not in a panic for money and are stocked at a low enough rate that you have the land to keep them until the 30 months then you might get away with not feeding ration and just let them grow on. But you won’t make any more per head than the lad feeding the meal because he’ll have his killed 4 to 6 months earlier. The difference being he will already be 4 to 6 months through his next round of stock when the lad that let them grow to 30 months is only looking around for what he can buy back.

Cattle are only making money for you when they are growing and if they are standing in a shed for 4 or 5 months without growing it’s not much good. The difference in meal feeding then, as well as adding on the kilos quicker will also improve the confirmation and the kill out percentages. U= or U+ stock properly fed will kill out up to 62% of liveweight, without the meal it would take a very good one to kill above 57%. On a 650kg animal that would be an extra 37kgs of meat, at €4.07 for a U= that’s €150. That’s the value of 600kgs of a hi-Maize finishing ration so the extra kill out alone pays for the meal fed, never mind the benefit of better confirmation, which could be adding anything from 6cent per kg to 24 cent if it means bringing an animal from an O+ to an R-. You also have the saving on silage as well so by needing less silage you can carry more stock in the summer.

dodo mommy · 05-12-2020 9:07am

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I did the costing myself. There was no offset for ration fed. However I have always found there is a lot of management required to feed much above 1-2kgs per day. Silage waste can become a big issue when ration is fed on top of silage. We are however dealing with silage that is only 70ish DMD. Silage made 20-30th May should be in or around that. I be real interested to see reaction to DM levels of silage.

My own costing for silage @ 25/bale is sub 10c/ kg of DM. from consumption levels at as lib I reckon there is 300 kgs DM/ bale

What would your protein levels be like in that silage? My silage sample came back this year at 11-12% protein and +70dmd lm spreading 80units of nitrogen in the form of cut sward. My advisor suggested that I up the nitrogen to 100units to increase the protein.

amens · 05-12-2020 9:22am

I remember seeing research before showing that while daily lwg for meal restricted weanlings was greater than that for non-restricted the following grazing season the restricted never made up fully the deficit in weight that had been built up over the winter.

I'm stuck for housing space so I finish cattle before their second winter before I have to house cows. I don't think I could do this if I didn't push them on as weanlings. Last year in fact I had a heavy pen and a light pen of weanlings and the light pen got even more ration than the heavy pen. This winter I was able to send them all off at the same time rather than having a few of the light ones left over for another couple of months.

I feed 2kg for two months and then 1kg for another and then nothing until turnout to the heavy pen and 3kg/2kg to the light pen.

Mooooo · 05-12-2020 9:28am

dodo mommy wrote: »

What would your protein levels be like in that silage? My silage sample came back this year at 11-12% protein and +70dmd lm spreading 80units of nitrogen in the form of cut sward. My advisor suggested that I up the nitrogen to 100units to increase the protein.

What age is the sward. Prob better off spreading sulphur as opposed to more N and make sure you are cutting at the right time

Say my name · 05-12-2020 9:49am

Mooooo wrote: »

What age is the sward. Prob better off spreading sulphur as opposed to more N and make sure you are cutting at the right time

I'd be saying spray a seaweed and molasses foliar mix. You'll have the sulphur in that and the rest. And any that hits the soil will increase the soil nitrogen and back into the plant.
Didn't test the silage this year but last I had 18% protein tested with the handheld and that had about 40 units N and seaweed and mol.
A lot has to do with stage of cutting and weather than purely the N amount applied too.

Bass Reeves · 05-12-2020 11:02am

DBK1 wrote: »

I’ve fed all types of cattle from P grades to E grades over the years and I’ve done it every which way it can be done. From no meal to too much meal, from bought in ration to growing our own barley and oats and keeping it for feeding.

The best ration we ever had for thrive was our own barley and oats mixed in with a bit of soya from the co-op and Irish grown grain maize that was bought in bales from a man in north county Dublin, I’m sure some of the posters here from that area will know the man.

I also keep cattle weighed 3 to 4 times a year so would have a reasonable handle on what way the different feed rates and types affected performance here. Silage here would be 30 to 40% DM, 72 to 75 DMD and 14 to 18% protein, first cut would be done by May bank holiday, second cut by end of June.

The one lesson I’ve learned from all the trials and failures is definitely when it comes to weanlings the 2 kgs of meal they get during the first winter is not even up for discussion, it has to be fed or you’re losing money.

As farawaygrass said above feed it stronger early in the winter, lower the amount in the second half and give them none for 2 to 3 weeks before turnout and you still get the full advantage of compensatory growth as well as the advantage of the meal feeding.

The first of the 2kgs of meal pays for itself due to the saving on silage. The second kilo pays for itself in growth gain on the stock. But you also gain on confirmation of the stock and that carries through with them.

When it comes to stores it all depends on your setup and targets. If you’re not in a panic for money and are stocked at a low enough rate that you have the land to keep them until the 30 months then you might get away with not feeding ration and just let them grow on. But you won’t make any more per head than the lad feeding the meal because he’ll have his killed 4 to 6 months earlier. The difference being he will already be 4 to 6 months through his next round of stock when the lad that let them grow to 30 months is only looking around for what he can buy back.

Cattle are only making money for you when they are growing and if they are standing in a shed for 4 or 5 months without growing it’s not much good. The difference in meal feeding then, as well as adding on the kilos quicker will also improve the confirmation and the kill out percentages. U= or U+ stock properly fed will kill out up to 62% of liveweight, without the meal it would take a very good one to kill above 57%. On a 650kg animal that would be an extra 37kgs of meat, at €4.07 for a U= that’s €150. That’s the value of 600kgs of a hi-Maize finishing ration so the extra kill out alone pays for the meal fed, never mind the benefit of better confirmation, which could be adding anything from 6cent per kg to 24 cent if it means bringing an animal from an O+ to an R-. You also have the saving on silage as well so by needing less silage you can carry more stock in the summer.

DBK
When not feeding ration did you feed minerals. At present I am feeding minerals, calcium( limestone flour ) and salt to stores. I never feed meal over the winter. Now my system is to buy one bunch of cattle in the year and sell the following year

There is a few reasons I do not feed ration. Spoilage of silage if I feed ration or mints on ration. Reduced the crows around the place. It all right to talk about using blue barrels on top of silage but you need to put them on the silage and off the silage every day and keep them out of the way while feeding silage. Now I can feed back and front of the pens. I a. Stocked at over 170 kgs N/ HA ( finished 70 bullocks still a few to mostly Friesians on 24HA put into BPS and I probably not want them to measure it). I buy cheap hungry stores and I never worry about carrying an animal to its potential.

On decent silage cattle will grow anyways again research by Teagasc is showing the best conversion rates for stores with ration are 10-1 and that is for continental heifers. Now Teagasc research was for weanling who are better converters and they were using a full grazing season. I really fail to see the saving on silage argument I consider it a red herring. Silage is costing me sub 10c/ kg DM( mine is high 30's running into 40 percent and higher DM)

While in you case with high potential animals it may give an extra margin at this stage with sub 4/kg beef prices and rations in bulk above 250/ ton and 300/ ton for bagged often rubbish it is not even break even on dairy stores whether beef or not especially if it's a cross a large bunch of cattle.

Bass Reeves · 05-12-2020 11:13am

Water John wrote: »

Bass, you'll be mob grazing soon.
Agree with well wilted good silage. Baling water only makes money for the contractor. Think the discussion now is, do you give them a shake 1kg, or not?

I mob graze for last three years. I have a finishing bunch and a store bunch. In March alright I might split them in three but ASAP I get them into the large bunches. Last year was the first year I had a 2year old cattle. For the two years before that I ran yearlings and two year olds in the store bunch. I have has heifers in the bunch as well it a matter of KISS

I think if you feed the right amount minerals then it's half the battle. Yes I could see the management advantage of feeding a kg to weanlings and always did it when I had them but I am not sure I do it again . I have crows about the place at present with the finishing bunch but as they are on only 6 kgs and eat it up fairly well it nowhere like it was 2+ years ago with feeding s few weanling as well and silage pulled all over the place. Now I know not living on the place is a limiting factor but it's definitely a huge difference

Bass Reeves · 05-12-2020 11:19am

Cavanjack wrote: »

Had to let a group of bulls into a field that was closed off for silage in late may due to drought for a month. It was far too strong for grazing but needs must.
They done a serious thrive on it. Made them eat it to the clay too. It Used to bother me putting them into strong covers. Not anymore after that.

If you want to speed cleaning out paddocks or heavy covers with pre mow or mow when they have grazed it die a good bit. You be amazed how much they will clean out on mowing and how it increases thrive. But if short of grass it's not necessarily an option. However if you are going into heavy covers full-time it's definitely increases intake and cleans out paddocks

Last year I ran the finishing bunch ahead of the stores and forced them to clean down paddocks

Bass Reeves · 05-12-2020 11:24am

dodo mommy wrote: »

What would your protein levels be like in that silage? My silage sample came back this year at 11-12% protein and +70dmd lm spreading 80units of nitrogen in the form of cut sward. My advisor suggested that I up the nitrogen to 100units to increase the protein.

I have not tested silage in 3+ years. Last time was with a miller using s refraction type analyser but I say his results were variable. High DM silage would generally be higher P than lower DM silage. As well I feed calcium which I think helps reduced P.

As an aside where P was above 12 Teagasc research was showed that feeding straight barley or hulls gave the exact same gain as fancy high P rations

endainoz · 05-12-2020 11:30am

I'm suprised nobody has talked about red clover silage instead of meal? I have heard of it used for finishing but not so much about it being given to weanlings. Would be a seriously cheap option if it could be used.

jaymla627 · 05-12-2020 11:38am

endainoz wrote: »

I'm suprised nobody has talked about red clover silage instead of meal? I have heard of it used for finishing but not so much about it being given to weanlings. Would be a seriously cheap option if it could be used.

Weather is the biggest issue re clover you have a small window to cut at the right stage and after that quality drops off rapidly, was maybe three chances here this year that a good 2-3 day window was got to make these high dm bales been raved about, in 80% of cases alot of baled silage was wet low dm shot out crap that needed to be cut 2 weeks earlier but no weather windows where got, no land charge been added to calculations re bales versus meal on a cost per dm basis is a textbook teagasc trick to

Bass Reeves · 05-12-2020 12:11pm

endainoz wrote: »

I'm suprised nobody has talked about red clover silage instead of meal? I have heard of it used for finishing but not so much about it being given to weanlings. Would be a seriously cheap option if it could be used.

I have tried different stuff to make silage. I have tried red clover while you are saving N you cannot autumn or spring graze, and you are looking at a 3 year reseeding cycle. Hybrid and Italian rygrasse were similar. Undersowing to barley and making arable silage was caught by reseeding grass struggle to compete for in silage award rape is an option in a year if caught for silage but land is out of commission until May early June following year.

Bass Reeves · 05-12-2020 12:21pm

jaymla627 wrote: »

Weather is the biggest issue re clover you have a small window to cut at the right stage and after that quality drops off rapidly, was maybe three chances here this year that a good 2-3 day window was got to make these high dm bales been raved about, in 80% of cases alot of baled silage was wet low dm shot out crap that needed to be cut 2 weeks earlier but no weather windows where got, no land charge been added to calculations re bales versus meal on a cost per dm basis is a textbook teagasc trick to

In drystock land is often not really the option. Most drystock farmers are stocked below 150kgN/ HA and some are not much with 100 kgs. There is a mortal fear of a fertilizer bill but lads have no issue going to the co-op every Friday from late August to early May and dropping 30-60 euro there.

My fertilizer bill is not inordinate I get 3 pallets of Urea, 2 of 18-6-12 and a pallet of CAN. However I treat slurry as an important nutrient as opposed to cost.

On high DM silage it matter of watching the weather from the 20th of May. I saw many lads get caught as crops had not bulked up last year and some missed late May cutting window. I struggled last year with grass all summer long I did not get the drenching come got and second cut ran to early August when I got the window after a wet spell.

cute geoge · 05-12-2020 12:26pm

Imo it os the quality of bought in meal is the problem most lads won't see results from feeding meal .Down here in Kerry it is impossible to get a simple 3 way mix with any combination of barley,maize meal ,soya ,distillers or glutten .Instead the choice will include wheat feed ,palm kernal ,extracted sunflower & other such fillers etc and the price is no less then if the main ingredients I listed were included .Farmers then can not figure why cows won't go incalf and cattle staggering after the winter after being fed this inferior cake!!!
Is there any mill that deliver a simple 3 way mix with a combination of native barley ,soya hulls/citrus ,maize meal /soya meal ,gluten distilllers in Kerry

endainoz · 05-12-2020 12:27pm

jaymla627 wrote: »

Weather is the biggest issue re clover you have a small window to cut at the right stage and after that quality drops off rapidly, was maybe three chances here this year that a good 2-3 day window was got to make these high dm bales been raved about, in 80% of cases alot of baled silage was wet low dm shot out crap that needed to be cut 2 weeks earlier but no weather windows where got, no land charge been added to calculations re bales versus meal on a cost per dm basis is a textbook teagasc trick to

I think last year weather-wise was exceptional at the same time. Drought followed by seemingly never ending rain, crops did suffer for sure. But seen as you have a sward established you'll surely try for a couple of cuts again?

endainoz · 05-12-2020 12:30pm

Bass Reeves wrote: »

In drystock land is often not really the option. Most drystock farmers are stocked below 150kgN/ HA and some are not much with 100 kgs. There is a mortal fear of a fertilizer bill but lads have no issue going to the co-op every Friday from late August to early May and dropping 30-60 euro there.

My fertilizer bill is not inordinate I get 3 pallets of Urea, 2 of 18-6-12 and a pallet of CAN. However I treat slurry as an important nutrient as opposed to cost.

On high DM silage it matter of watching the weather from the 20th of May. I saw many lads get caught as crops had not bulked up last year and some missed late May cutting window. I struggled last year with grass all summer long I did not get the drenching come got and second cut ran to early August when I got the window after a wet spell.

The idea of not being able to graze it probably puts some lads off the idea, I had thought to possibly pick a dry corner of one of the meadows and plant it there. I still haven't heard how weanlings would take to it, but if they are used to a mixed sward already, they should get used to eating it faster than meal.

Bass Reeves · 05-12-2020 12:49pm

cute geoge wrote: »

Imo it os the quality of bought in meal is the problem most lads won't see results from feeding meal .Down here in Kerry it is impossible to get a simple 3 way mix with any combination of barley,maize meal ,soya ,distillers or glutten .Instead the choice will include wheat feed ,palm kernal ,extracted sunflower & other such fillers etc and the price is no less then if the main ingredients I listed were included .Farmers then can not figure why cows won't go incalf and cattle staggering after the winter after being fed this inferior cake!!!
Is there any mill that deliver a simple 3 way mix with a combination of native barley ,soya hulls/citrus ,maize meal /soya meal ,gluten distilllers in Kerry

I agree with you regarding quality in a lot of rations. Do Dairygold deliver into Kerry. I know Crecora mills and Riches feeds deliver into part of Kerry. It really a matter of checking different suppliers.

However on Teagas research projects the best of rations are specified. I not get caught up.on three way mixes for the winter anyway. There is no need of a fibre source feeding 2-3 kgs. I feeds 6 kgs to finishing cattle and there is no fibre source. It should not be an issue with baked silage. However Teagas research again has shown no difference between using straights by themselves to feed weanling or bullocks. If you want P try using straight palm Kernel.

You just need to balance the.minerals and vits . Remember KISS

Water John · 05-12-2020 1:01pm

Yeah have a bit of red clover silage. You'd nearly eat it yourself, it's really nice, cattle mad for it.
Like Bass I think says above, got caught with it as an undersow on oats. Will reseed again in the Spring. Haven't tried grazing it yet, but I think the trick is to have the animals full going into it and limit the amount for the first few days. I'd say really only talking of autumn grazing after 3rd cut.

Neo Sanders · 06-12-2020 9:27pm

Hi bass,

You said :
"There is a few reasons I do not feed ration. Spoilage of silage if I feed ration or mints on ration."

There's other lads on about putting barrels on the silage for ration.

What is the problem with putting ration or nuts on the silage. I'm doing it for years and I find it helps with clean out of silage. I'm on pit silage, so maybe it's different with bales???

My cattle aren't that picky, they'll just eat it!!

Sure anyone with a diet feeder is mixing a number of ingredients..

IMO a small bit of meal over the winter for weanlings or stores keeps them ticking over. They'll take a lot longer to come, if left stagnating for too long.... A wise man once said to me, 'by the time you've paid for the feed you haven't much out of them, but if you don't feed them you've nothing out of them'...

Jb1989 · 06-12-2020 9:52pm

Neo Sanders wrote: »

Hi bass,

You said :
"There is a few reasons I do not feed ration. Spoilage of silage if I feed ration or mints on ration."

There's other lads on about putting barrels on the silage for ration.

What is the problem with putting ration or nuts on the silage. I'm doing it for years and I find it helps with clean out of silage. I'm on pit silage, so maybe it's different with bales???

My cattle aren't that picky, they'll just eat it!!

Sure anyone with a diet feeder is mixing a number of ingredients..

IMO a small bit of meal over the winter for weanlings or stores keeps them ticking over. They'll take a lot longer to come, if left stagnating for too long.... A wise man once said to me, 'by the time you've paid for the feed you haven't much out of them, but if you don't feed them you've nothing out of them'...

Cattle here eat every stem of silage with mail scattered across too. Never seen wastage.

Good loser · 06-12-2020 10:09pm

Half my stock are Frs and at 2.5 to 2.8 years they average €1060 ish in the factory. Calf to beef. Half P's and half O's (I'm a bottom feeder!)

Usually put the best 5/10 out in Feb. This year put the certain Ps out first.
Most were still Ps at sale in November around 350 kgs Fat score over 3.

Several years fed Frs significant ration on Oct/Nov grass; now I don't feed any.
The margin(for me) is not worth the work/management involved.

Generally give them 1/2 kgs over Winter. Silage quality is slowly improving.

amens · 07-12-2020 2:16pm

I say weigh them when you house them and when you let them out. If last year's group had a daily lwg of 0.6kg then I wouldn't change anything. If it's greater then reduce meal feeding. When I started farming silage fields hadn't been reseeded and I fed them no meal and they were the same weight at the end of the winter as at the start. Last year I was at around 0.5kg trying to give them the best of the silage and plenty of it with the meal. I can't see myself getting to 0.6kg without meal feeding.

I just saw a presentation by teagasc from 2013 where it said not to overrely on compensatory growth. They won't care either way whether your cattle gain weight or not.

Stop feeding Drummonds meal.....well any Meal

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